Rifleman upgrade.

[Forssen]

Russian:
Riflemen Lvl1 - War made 9130 sighted in with bayonet.
Riflemen Lvl2 - Option to have it sighted in without bayonet.
Riflemen Lvl3 - Pre-war made 9130.

German:
Riflemen Lvl1 - K98 sighted in without bayonet.
Riflemen Lvl2 - Option to have it sighted in with bayonet.
Riflemen Lvl3 - Option to remove sight hood.

I'm afraid it might not be enough though... Lets pray to :IS2: the upgrades wont be anything too extreme.

 

[VariousNames]

I also think wasting development time/resources on crafting two indistinct models of the same rifle isn't advisable.

 

[Nicholas]

How about we only have upgrades if it correlates with reality, and not make stuff up, why do people have to start with PPsh stick mags when they came from the factory with a drum? Why do you have to be a higher level to sight in your gun a certain way or take the sight hood off?

I think rarer weapons and upgrades should be "unlocked" and limited, but if the average soldier had access to it, then let them have it.

When people want huge complex leveling systems for RO2, I think of this song YouTube - Strapping Young Lad - Oh My ****ing God

 

[Krator]

In my opinion rifleman upgrades should be more about cutomization - sight hood and weapon sighted in with/without bayonet were already mentioned, and that's actually a great idea - it doesn't give any big advantage, it just let's player tune weapon to the personal preference.
However, I think that removal of the sight hood is not that good idea, because sight hood in this game doesn't give any real advantage, and we all know that germans placed it there for a reason. So it wouldn;t be a real choice between 2 different types of advantages.

I think the most important upgrade for the rifleman should be ammunition. We all know that germans manufactured many different kinds of bullets. I don't know how popular was the K bullet with tungsten core, but high level rifleman with 2 clips of such bullets wouldn't really be that much against history and realism, and the additional penetration would come in handy when dealing with thicker cover and clown cars.

 

[Nicholas]

In my opinion rifleman upgrades should be more about cutomization - sight hood and weapon sighted in with/without bayonet were already mentioned, and that's actually a great idea - it doesn't give any big advantage, it just let's player tune weapon to the personal preference.
However, I think that removal of the sight hood is not that good idea, because sight hood in this game doesn't give any real advantage, and we all know that germans placed it there for a reason. So it wouldn;t be a real choice between 2 different types of advantages.

I think the most important upgrade for the rifleman should be ammunition. We all know that germans manufactured many different kinds of bullets. I don't know how popular was the K bullet with tungsten core, but high level rifleman with 2 clips of such bullets wouldn't really be that much against history and realism, and the additional penetration would come in handy when dealing with thicker cover and clown cars.

What defined armies in WW2 was the fact that mass quantities of the same quality equipment could be manufactured and issued, "upgrading" makes more sense in a game like Mount and Blade Warband, but in a game like HoS upgrading should be kept to an absolute minimum, and "customizations" can be just optional, why do you have to have more status to take your sight hood off?

 

[Krator]

Leveling is not only about status, it's also about experience. F. e. more experienced soldier can keep his sight safe without sight hood. It's just a dumb example, but that's how it works. I don't think that green conscripts start to customize their weapons from the 1st day in duty.
So IMO it makes sense to just add more options for higher level players. Nowadays we know that removing sight hood provides more advantages than disadvantages in some cases. But I don't think every german soldier issued with kar98k knew this... It takes time to know all those wartime "tricks".

And what do you guys think about "unlocking" different ammo loadouts? Was there a chance that a regular infantryman would get access to k bullets?

 

[VariousNames]

In my opinion rifleman upgrades should be more about cutomization - sight hood and weapon sighted in with/without bayonet were already mentioned, and that's actually a great idea - it doesn't give any big advantage, it just let's player tune weapon to the personal preference.

But what's the point of that kind of a modification? It's not even remotely essential. It shouldn't be a sticking point if its purely aesthetic.

If there's no real substance, there's no point in putting it in the game anyway.

 

[Nicholas]

Leveling is not only about status, it's also about experience. F. e. more experienced soldier can keep his sight safe without sight hood. It's just a dumb example, but that's how it works. I don't think that green conscripts start to customize their weapons from the 1st day in duty.
So IMO it makes sense to just add more options for higher level players. Nowadays we know that removing sight hood provides more advantages than disadvantages in some cases. But I don't think every german soldier issued with kar98k knew this... It takes time to know all those wartime "tricks".

And what do you guys think about "unlocking" different ammo loadouts? Was there a chance that a regular infantryman would get access to k bullets?

They could if a veteran soldier told them how to do it.

Something simple like taking a sight hood off, sighting it in with a bayonet, using whatever combination of drum and stick mags, or using clips instead of individual rounds (individual rounds reloadable, clips faster but not reloadable) etc should all be optional from the start.

However, having a rarer gun or upgrade, like using a PPD 40, or double mags on an MP40 should be upgradeable.

 

[Krator]

Ok, I agree, sighting with/without bayo etc. should be optional and available for the start. But this leaves us with the initial problem: no reasoable upgrade options. Pistol is unrealistic, there's really no selection in german rifles either (kar98k or kar98k), and different ammo loadouts is still a big question mark. I wouldn't mind better armour piercing ammo for germans and incindiary bullets for russians.

 

[VariousNames]

Leveling is not only about status, it's also about experience. F. e. more experienced soldier can keep his sight safe without sight hood. It's just a dumb example, but that's how it works. I don't think that green conscripts start to customize their weapons from the 1st day in duty.
So IMO it makes sense to just add more options for higher level players. Nowadays we know that removing sight hood provides more advantages than disadvantages in some cases. But I don't think every german soldier issued with kar98k knew this... It takes time to know all those wartime "tricks".

Not everyone who walked into Stalingrad was green, and most of the core infantry would have spent months firing these weapons in training.

Operation Barbarossa began more than a year before the Battle of Stalingrad:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa

Many German soldiers spearheading Operation Barbarossa would have been experienced soldiers in the Polish campaign:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland

And of course many of them would have been experienced soldiers from the prior campaigns in addition to the invasion of France:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France

And you're literally trying to say these guys would be so awe inspired by the concept that removing the sight hood might increase their field of view? The Wehrmacht at Stalingrad would have been one of the most experienced fighting units in the world at the time...day one. I think they would have understood the basic operation of their firearms at that point.

If anything, the German army was only short on experienced personnel the more the war dragged on as all their good soldiers got killed.

 

[Forssen]

I rather not have any upgrades at all, but face it, they will be in the game. It doesn't help to whine and scream "NO upgrades!", it's better to find possible solutions for what these upgrades could be.

It's simply not going to happen that we get everything from the start, the only positive (and negative) side I see with the upgrade system is that there might actually be worth adding some stuff we wouldn't see otherwise.

 

[Krator]

@VariousNames: How does removing your sight hood increase your FOV when your both eyes are opened?
And when I said "Ok, I agree, sighting with/without bayo etc. should be optional and available for the start" I was talking about sight hoods too.

And you just imply that I've said things that I didn't.
I didn't say that: "everyone who walked into Stalingrad was green".
I didn't say german soldiers didn't have any previous experience. You're confusing this game with history.
"you're literally trying to say these guys would be so awe inspired by the concept that removing the sight hood might increase their field of view" - no?
Did I offend you? Did I to lie to you? I've admitted that I was wrong and now you're implying I have no historical knowledge (because you bring obvious historical facts like something new to me, into this argument, and but that's just offensive).
And please, just respond on the topic. I've asked a question about the K bullets. You could have used that time to add some new idead or new information.
EDIT: I really enjoy sharing information. Learning something new is always great. But only in polite and friendly way. I'm sorry If I offended you by being wrong. But this is a game, and in this game it's just possible for every "new player" to be a green conscript, not a veteran of 100 campaigns. 1st time players shoot like s**t anyways, and they're not really on veteran level

Sorry for those personal remarks, I'm just not having the best day in my life today.

 

[Zetsumei]

But what's the point of that kind of a modification? It's not even remotely essential. It shouldn't be a sticking point if its purely aesthetic.

If there's no real substance, there's no point in putting it in the game anyway.

Loads of people like me prefer the weapon how it was in the mod without its sight hood, because then the sight hood no longer blocks your vision. I think removing the sight hood is actually one of the nicest possible unlocks for a k98.

The key part of a bolt is how you can aim with it, removing the sight hood gives you an advantage there. So its not purely aesthetic it makes it easier to spot and hit enemies.

 

[Alexander Ostmann]

Agreed. I think the only practical upgrade to the Kar 98k would be having the option to use the sight hood or not.

To be honest, most of the weapons that I can think of don't have many things that can be upgraded. If I could choose, I would rather have the upgrades be on the soldier himself. Maybe you could unlock a whitewashed helmet, or you could unlock a splintertarn helmet cover. Maybe you unlock a reversible field-gray parka (or that could be a hero unlock?), etc. Those would be more useful on the field than a "smoother" bolt or a rifle with "less recoil".

Although for the MG-34, I would love to be able to choose between a belt or a magazine.

 

[Grobut]

The word "Choice" gets thrown around a lot in here, but if you listen to what John said durring the last Crosshairs cast, then choice will have nothing to do with the upgrade system.

He states that you unlock better equipment, and then automatically select the better equipment, implying there is no choice involved, your loadout is just outright replaced by the next level of better equipment.

At no point was it implied that you would still get the option of using the old stuff you had before, quite the opposite.


Talking about options is great, but i think we need to check with the Dev's here, because i don't think that's what they have planned for HoS at all, it was presented as a strictly linear and forced upgrade progression, not as anything involving options.

 

[Nicholas]

I think there should be "some" weapon upgrade but also uniform upgrades, and also maybe some extra ammo and grenades.

Like I said before, I think having your rifle shinier from the start, and slowly getting more worn would be a good upgrade.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

The upgrading of weapons in terms of build quality is a bad and unrealistic idea, which is why I wasn't all for the OP's suggestion.

Instead as you increase in level more weapons within your particular class should become available for choosing. For example a hero rifleman should be able to pick a Semi Auto rifle.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

I think the most important upgrade for the rifleman should be ammunition. We all know that germans manufactured many different kinds of bullets. I don't know how popular was the K bullet with tungsten core, but high level rifleman with 2 clips of such bullets wouldn't really be that much against history and realism, and the additional penetration would come in handy when dealing with thicker cover and clown cars.

The K bullet was used during WWI, not WWII. During WWII the std. 7.92mm AP round was the 11.5 gram S.m.K. (Spitzgeschoss mit Kern), which used a hardened steel core. Then there was the special 12.6 gram S.m.K.(H) (Spitzgeschoss mit Hart Kern) which used a tungsten core and increased propellant charge for extra armour penetration performance.

 

[Nicholas]

The upgrading of weapons in terms of build quality is a bad and unrealistic idea, which is why I wasn't all for the OP's suggestion.

Instead as you increase in level more weapons within your particular class should become available for choosing. For example a hero rifleman should be able to pick a Semi Auto rifle.

This, unlocks should be new weapons (realistically, like a TT33 over a Nagant, or MG42 over MG34 etc) and new uniform add ons.

Actually upgrading weapons for the most part should be optional and not have to do with rank, except in some cases.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

The idea here is to give people variations and small upgrades which could easily be considered horizontal upgrades, its something different; but not necessarily better. It will also give some flavour to the battlefield.

I like the idea of different caliber / make mauser's.