Rifle bolting animation exaggerated (?)

[FlyXwire]

I've been reviewing the recent RO2 videos of the alpha-build version, and was drawn to the amount of rifle movement shown during the bolting sequences. What I'm wondering about is the degree of overall rifle movement off of the aiming point shown during the bolting animation, and whether this is more than actually required? When bolting my WW2 military rifles, I don't think I deviate off target quite as much as shown in the videos.

Perhaps my visual perception of the movement shown in the videos compared to my actual weapon comparisons differs because of changes in depth perception, etc., but if this accounts for the variation, then another question arises whether a bolt action rifle being rested on a window sill, sandbag, or the ground (such as when prone), will provide for less movement (greater stability) when bolting the weapon?

Here's a sequence of the bolting animation when using the sniper scope (open sights movement seems to be the same also):

 

[Nicholas]

Have you bolted a rifle in combat?

 

[FlyXwire]

Has TWI bolting their rifles in combat?

So your point?

I've years of expereince firing military rifles, as I'm sure many of the members on this forum have, so please leave your rediculous rhetorical questions for someone else's discussion.

 

[mandead]

I think your response was a little heavy-handed, Fly.

 

[FlyXwire]

Not really, he's done it before in response to some of my other postings, and it's more than annoying. It took a bit of time to review these videos, isolate some stills, upload them and post them here, so flippant remarks really are a waste of time.

So I'll ask Nicholas again if he thinks any of TWI's own live fire experience is valid if it was done only on a rifle range and not in combat conditions? (!)

 

[Nicholas]

Has TWI bolting their rifles in combat?

So your point?

I've years of expereince firing military rifles, as I'm sure many of the members on this forum have, so please leave your rediculous rhetorical questions for someone else's discussion.

I'm saying that they might bolt it more overexagerated because of the stress of combat, not a smooth day at the range.

 

[Zetsumei]

what I personally care more for is that the actual sights turn black when he's moving the gun like that to re-bolt.


Remember as well that rather than moving the gun you could see it as lifting your head up from the rifle butt. So the gun is still pointing at the same direction but your head isn't.

 

[FlyXwire]

I'm saying that they might bolt it more overexagerated because of the stress of combat, not a smooth day at the range.

Then you don't understand what range training time is for, and why marksmen practice aiming and breathing techniques repeatedly so that the process becomes as natural as possible.

Zets, thanks for at least mindfully considering the issue.

When bolting a rifle, your forearm hold doesn't need to drop, nor does your head need to rise, and the weapon is being held as firmly as possible between the grip of the forearm and the shoulder at the rifile butt. Most of any movement caused by bolting comes from the bolting action itself. As I also mentioned, if the rifle is resting on the ground or against a window, saddled in between sandbags or through a loophole........then the barrel end will be even more stable in it's alignment.

Do we have any military shooters of bolt action weapons here that would like to lend their opinoins?

 

[Nicholas]

Then you don't understand what range training time is for, and why marksmen practice aiming and breathing techniques repeatedly so that the process becomes as natural as possible.

Zets, thanks for at least mindfully considering the issue.

When bolting a rifle, your forearm hold doesn't need to drop, nor does your head need to rise, and the weapon is being held as firmly as possible between the grip of the forearm and the shoulder at the rifile butt. Most of any movement caused by bolting comes from the bolting action itself. As I also mentioned, if the rifle is resting on the ground or against a window, saddled in between sandbags or through a loophole........then the barrel end will be even more stable in it's alignment.

Do we have any military shooters of bolt action weapons here that would like to lend their opinoins?

I've been to the range alot, I've several bolt actions that were modern.

You're right that if its rested against the shoulder it shouldn't move like that, but it still wouldn't perfect either.

 

[Zetsumei]

When bolting a rifle, your forearm hold doesn't need to drop, nor does your head need to rise

Although I haven't fired a mosin or k98 so i could be wrong here. I believe that when bolting the mechanism moves quite a bit back and would hit your actual face if you didnt slightly move it.

The reload seen in HOS seems to resemble something like this to me:
YouTube - Mosin Nagant Rapid Fire

So you keep the weapon shouldered and your forearm in place but quickly lift your head away from the stock. Or like this where you keep looking at the target but quickly lower the rifle to rebolt.

YouTube - K98 Mauser

I've looked a bit on youtube (probably not the best source) but so far haven't seen anyone bolting the weapon with the head still resting against the stock.

 

[Grobut]

Although I haven't fired a mosin or k98 so i could be wrong here. I believe that when bolting the mechanism moves quite a bit back and would hit your actual face if you didnt slightly move it.

I've just tried it, all be it with an Airsoft replica because, well that's what i've got (Danish gun laws beeing what they are), but it does have the correct pull leangth of the real rifle, so it should do for this test.

The result is that the bolt stops just about 1 ~ 1

 

[Extension7]

I kinda thought the same thing FlyXwire. But I just thought I was because he was scoped in so there may have been something to do with the zoom.

I havent even seen the regular bolts in video but I hope they don't work the same.

 

[Rmerac]

The bolting animation looks fine to me. (May I remind you, I've never shot a bolt action rifle, therefore, I really wouldn't know.) However, the view within the scope, should definitely be cut to halfway black or all black seeing as the scope wouldn't be a perfectly straight view from the character's shoulder to where the scope is pointed. And if the scope were from the character's eye sight.. how could it still be aimed directly ahead, with the entire gun to the side?

(My apologies if that was hard to comprehend. I'm sure someone can explain it a bit better..)

 

[SheepDip]

Going by what you see in the reticule it goes a few feet up (relative to the target at distance) and slightly to the right. Which really is minor movement. That's surely down to the rifleman, the quickest way to bolt would surely be the most disruptive to the direction the gun was facing, although in reality would be entirely possible to bolt without moving (at least, much at all) the gun keeping at your shoulder in place and leaning on a surface.

I don't see the problem though. It's a minor detail we could squabble about all day.

 

[Oldih]

I've looked a bit on youtube (probably not the best source) but so far haven't seen anyone bolting the weapon with the head still resting against the stock.

It's easy to do things when you're just "practising" them, it's not hard to rebolt Mauser while keeping your target partitially in sights, but we could take some other stuff into account:

1. Keeping your muscles and stance rigid enough to support a weapon mostly still and keep your eye on there while rebolting is **** tiring if you do it longer than for a brief period of time.
2. Your total weight. Now sure it's not big deal, but add tunic, helmet, combat eguipment and some other things and it suddenly gives you 10-15kg of extra weight even when it doesn't really feel that heavy. Add something extra (like let's say you're an engineer) and it suddenly becomes more painful to keep it up, you'll wear yourself relatively fast.
3. For point #1, you'll also need the "perfect" position to do so. Try doing so while you're laying down or you're not standing exactly straight, it becomes pain in the *** to do.
4. Stress. Now this sounds quite silly, but it was noted in one of the suppression threads that even simply being under fire makes your body react in diffrent ways and your heartbeat goes up among some other things. Now let's say some real physical wearyness and streching your muscles for extended periods and you're probably going to be tired as hell. Sure there's minor variation but generally speaking you can't maintain "max power" when it comes to your muscles more than for a relatively brief period, even if you're heavily trained to do anaerobic actions.
5. Another thing that popped up in one of the suppression threads was interesting diagram how well average US soldier performed with M16 on shooting range and then on simulated combat exercise. They were able to keep high accuracy up to 500-600m in shooting range, but in exercise basically past 100m they had worse 'performance' than they had on shooting range past 700m.

Now while those are not directly related to the point itself about the animation looking just slightly odd (and it would be nice to see it in unzoomed form), it's easy to do things on shooting range or if you're just repeating something for the sake of it, try to do it after you have minor exhaustion with realistic soldier's gear loadout. Certain things which were simple suddenly becomes painfully tricky.

 

[Grobut]

However, the view within the scope, should definitely be cut to halfway black or all black seeing as the scope wouldn't be a perfectly straight view from the character's shoulder to where the scope is pointed. And if the scope were from the character's eye sight.. how could it still be aimed directly ahead, with the entire gun to the side?

That's been commented on before, and it should get fixed.

We have to remember that what we're seeing here is an Alpha version, not even a Beta, there's still lots of stuff that isen't done, is only half-implimented, and there are still placeholders in there too, we're looking at a mock-up, not a release-candidate.

 

[Rmerac]

Of course Grobut. I was just inserting my input on the subject. Rushing Tripwire to fix small issues is the last thing I want to do.. I'd rather see a beta with minor issues than a perfect beta that will take another year on top of the 2011 expectancy.

 

[FlyXwire]

Sniper scopes are usually mounted above a rifle's receiver (the German 1.5X powered scope being an exception), and afford greater freedom of bolting action as well as aiming separation when firing.

The point of resting a weapon for greater stability and ease of action, such as for aiming, bolting, and reloading is illustrated by the photo below.

The last thing I would have expected to see this sharpshooter do in combat would have been to raise his head or pitch his rifle around to load another bullet. I can't get pass this idea that sharpshooters heads or rifles are bobbing up and down everytime they're going to be chambering another round.

 

[Floyd]

Couple of things (or three)....
1) As SheepDip comments, judging by the look of the image in the sight as he is bolting, the shooter, imo, is holding the gun far more closely on target than one could while going through the motion of bolting. Which leads to #2.

2) Perhaps consider the view as 3D. If you think you could keep your eye focused on the target through the scope as you bolt, then consider the images shown are with both eyes open. One looking through the scope, the other (the left) viewing down the side of the barrel.

3) Don't know that I've ever continued looking through the scope while bolting any of my scoped weapons. The shock of the recoil pretty much causes one to lose the sight picture momentarily anyway. Usually, I'll pick my head up to have a look see while I'm bolting. Now if I'm target shooting and interested in seeing if I can tell where the bullet impact is, I may take the time to re-aquire the target to examine it closely through the scope before chambering the next round (this is where a spotter really comes in handy). If I'm in relatively close quarters or have LOTS of targets of opportunity, I quite imagine I'd be having a quick look around to find the next as I cylcle the bolt. From my limited knowledge of them, those were fairly small scopes. I imagine their FOV was quite small and the lens images less than ideal.

Then too, depending upon the style of the helmet, it is quite possible that the brim may interfere with your hand as you cycle the bolt. And though the bolt may clear your face, you've still got hands to consider.....

 

[FlyXwire]

Usually, I'll pick my head up to have a look see while I'm bolting.

So that's what's happeneing in the screenshots, because there's no threat to sticking your head up when you're plinking on a range or hunting something that won't shoot back, but it can be a fatal error for real snipers on a battlefield.

This video contains some wartime footage, showing a sniper work his rifle's bolt action. I don't see any helmet interference here, or the bolt action being restricted, or weapons needing to be pitched around, because there's actually lots of freedom of movement availalble (0:14)

YouTube - Red Army snipers