Review on Tank Combat

[ViViD]

Again, their is NO T-34/76 vs Tiger combat in this game, Its the T-34/85. Here are the Penetration tables for the T-34/85s main gun, 85 mm ZiS-S-53, at 90 degrees.

Using APC ammunition penetration would be 96mm @ 500m / 88mm @ 1000m.
Using APHE ammunition penetration would be 111mm @ 500m / 102mm @ 1000m.
Using APCR ammunition penetration would be 138mm @ 500m / 100mm @ 1000m.
Using HVAP ammunition penetration would be 121mm @ 500m / 80mm @ 1000m.
Using APCBC ammunition penetration @ 30 Degrees would be 103mm @ 500m / 94mm @ 1000m.
Using APCBC ammunition penetration would be 137-147mm @ 600-500m / 128mm @ 1000m / 118mm @ 1500.

Using anything but APC ammunition, the main gun could potentialy be capable of taking out a Panther or Tiger out to 1000m and them some, and would guarante destruction at 500m. Though APC ammunition was the most common and you could make your arugment on that but the fact remains that it was possible.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/guns.html
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/tan...um/t34_85.html
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:j5ZcPGqr5KMJ:www.wargamer.com/cm/john%2520salt/ww2pen.rtf+85mm+APCBC+penetration&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a

Sources for first two links below, sources for third inside document.
1. Russian Tanks and Armored Vehicles 1917-1945, by Wolfgang Fleischer, 1999
2. World War II Infantry Anti-Tank Tactics, Gordon L Rottman, 2005

And here is what a it looks like when a tank is hit in the ammunition compartment, no huge instant wreakage, ammo slowly cooks off shell by shell until the tank is engulfed in flames. I think the first video of the panther is just the engine catching fire and not the ammunition but still the same effect, no large explosion just slowly starts to burn.

http://media.putfile.com/ww232

http://media.putfile.com/ammo_cookoff

http://media.putfile.com/missile20

Thats all nice but the T-34/85 came out in March 1944 in limited numbers and much later in larger numbers.

We using T-34/85 and IS-2 against Tigers I for all of these battles, the germans switched over to more self propelled tank killer options in 1944, so for balancing reasons The tigers are balanced to fight these newer Russian Tanks, its like 1943 actual tank combat did not happen, considering it was the time of the biggest Tank battles.

On a side note, it looks like the penetration and effects of a T-34/85 in Combat Mission has come from differing sources as the T-34/85 is incapable of going 1 to 1 with a Tiger.

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Model 1943

 

[GRU.51]

Thats all nice but the T-34/85 came out in March 1944 in limited numbers and much later in larger numbers.

We using T-34/85 and IS-2 against Tigers I for all of these battles, the germans switched over to more self propelled tank killer options in 1944, so for balancing reasons The tigers are balanced to fight these newer Russian Tanks, its like 1943 actual tank combat did not happen, considering thie was the time of the biggest Tank battles.

On a side note, it looks like the penetration and effects of a T-34/85 in Combat Mission has come from differing sources as the T-34/85 is incapable of going 1 to 1 with a Tiger.

Both Russians and Germans used more self-propelled guns during the end of the war in 44-45, though both still employed large numbers of tanks.

Just because its main gun is capable of penetrating a Tiger dosen't mean its in the same class, its still a medium tank, and a Tiger can still take it out 1000-1500m away using AP ammunition while taking damage at 1000-1500m away, Tiger still has a higher advantage range and armor.

 

[ViViD]

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1-02.htm view for better layout

Front Side Rear
Gun Mantlet 120 mm @ 0

 

[Witzig]

Well G

 

[ViViD]

As long as your magically at that 11 or 1 postion with the hull you will always win, a clanny and myself took on 3 tanks with a (red) panther in that position and won.

My beef is that it doesn't matter what tank your in, the armour and penetration factors I feel are not realisticly modelled, where the position on a shot, angle of aim and type of gun is not a mathetmatical calculations

I got a feeling they cheated a little and hit 5-6 hit boxes and and caliber of gun is ignored and if the angle of the tank is between on 11 or 1 you cannot pentrate anything else is fair game, but we will then increase the culmative damage dependant of angle and armour.

I just don't get the feeling of realistically modelled cause a T-34/85 over 400m away could not penetrate a tiger frontally as per the stats I have shown.

Hell I hit an armoured car in the rear probably that magically 7 o'clock position with a PIV (15m away) and the bloody shell richcoted how does that happen, both my driver and I was amazed and laughed

 

[Witzig]

Okay that never happend to me so far, though we had some strange things happening, shooting a Tiger in the Rear with an IS-2 and it did fight on (Engine burning but working).

And following this Datasheet:
http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4020&page=2

The T34/85 could penetrate the Hull of the Tiger on 2,900m not the Turret, but the Hull. Though iirc there are several different Values on at which Range the Tiger could get penetrated (or not) by the T34/85...

 

[ViViD]

Same datasheet, the 2900m is if it get past the tracks and wheels and then into the hull. Not really possible. One thing that never taken into account is poor soviet optics they were shocking compared to the german optics. Your lucky to hit half the time over 700m with a soviet gun, but with germans it was typical to hit 800-1000 metres.

Not really modelled well in RO.

 

[takadi]

If a tank round were to repeatedly ricochet off of a tank, wouldn't it at least still cause some damage? A dent? A really big dent? And wouldn't repeated ricochet off of that same dent or that same general area eventually penetrate it?

 

[Witzig]

Well its certainly also possible to penetrate a Tank and not create any Damage, but the Section of Armor which has been struck is weakened of course.

and as a Sidenote on most Tank Maps (Ogledow/Barashka/Rakowice/Hedgehog/Bondarevo/K

 

[ViViD]

Yeah i know the maps are small, but one of the map I am thinking of hedgehog I think you can have those big fights on the german left flank, the optics are the same as well as the magnification considering the german panther had better magnification and optics then the majority of tanks, in that situation it treated as an equal.

Again balance has come into play instead of realism. I would rather balance be sorted out via tactics based on realism rather then some psuedo coding in the background to try and equalise tanks.

 

[ViViD]

If a tank round were to repeatedly ricochet off of a tank, wouldn't it at least still cause some damage? A dent? A really big dent? And wouldn't repeated ricochet off of that same dent or that same general area eventually penetrate it?

Try to get a tank round in exactly the same position twice is like lightning, this is due to humidity, wind resistance, recoil from your last firing, everything would move it a few degrees which is a few inches in a 400m firing range, I remember seeing a sighting test where they fired one shot after the other it always leanded in a different spot. I forget where I saw it

 

[takadi]

Try to get a tank round in exactly the same position twice is like lightning, this is due to humidity, wind resistance, recoil from your last firing, everything would move it a few degrees which is a few inches in a 400m firing range, I remember seeing a sighting test where they fired one shot after the other it always leanded in a different spot. I forget where I saw it

but wouldn't a large area of dents caused by ricochets generally be more susceptible to collapsing?

 

[Reddog]

Hell I hit an armoured car in the rear probably that magically 7 o'clock position with a PIV (15m away) and the bloody shell richcoted how does that happen, both my driver and I was amazed and laughed

That was with me.

We were in a PIV short barrel, I was gunning ViViD was driving and an armoured car sped past us. I shot it nearly full in the arse as it did so and the shot ricocheted.

 

[ViViD]

Details Details, and I don't think it was a short barrel i think it was the F2 as we were playing in that map with panther and tigers and with the couple of towns in the centre river and open flanks either side.

 

[Taskeen]

Play ww2ol and you'll find out what "realistic" penetration is.

Yes, I've played it. Very good tank combat for such an old game. I always saw tanks in that game that were on fire though, to indicate they are "dead."

In RO, tanks seem to smoke when their health points are lost, just like in Battlefield games. I know this game is for a mature audience that likes realism, so why not make the tank combat as best as it can be?

Anyways, my point is regarding CM, for an RTS, it has very realistic penetration.

 

[Moz]

I am totally in favour of these suggestions for more realistic tank combat

 

[GRU.51]

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger1-02.htm view for better layout

Front Side Rear
Gun Mantlet 120 mm @ 0

 

[ViViD]

Could you tell me what was standard rounds in most T-34/85mm a tanks, cause all over the net you get differing responses to the Russian 85mm Debate

Which then leads on to why even in later in war did the tigers have 10-1 ratios of tiger verus t-34s?

Also on a side note I noticed this only 4 rounds of UBR-365PK were issued if Tank to Tank engagement was expected, so operational wise you be lucky to be hit by the UBR-365PK which is the big killer and you would normally get fired on byt the UBR-365, UBR-365K even so this does the damage as well

These are combat mission stats people use this reference cause the guys who made this game and the people involved are real grogs and know their stuff

So yeah I guess the ranges we are fighting in RO are compatitive what would happen but I suspect the optics are not correct and need to be larger so longer range battles could happen

Also 1943 maps still do not exist

 

[OldDog]

Interesting discussion, but I have something simpler. I would like to see more/better communication in-vehicle. Perhaps a vehicle VOIP channel, so that simple stuff, like "driver stop", "driver backup", "main gun, tank, right", "machine gunner, infantry, left" can be communicated. Trying to do that on a general team channel is a bit hairy, and you can forget about text.

Also, more radios, perhaps in-vehicle radios for the commander. It would be tactically sound for the commander to have the ability to act as his own FO for arty. If not in-vehicle, then more static radios.

 

[Witzig]

Well the T34 76 could already penetrate the Tiger on 500m frontally and on 1.500 m from the Side 90