Removing Shotgun Penetration

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ChairmanMurder[Forge]

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 24, 2011
480
107
0
34
Sunny, Sunny California
First off, I'm not quite sure where this thread should go. Not quite a suggestion, not quite about tactics, but also not quite random general discussion. If it needs to be moved, do so.

Second, I'm not completely in favor of enacting this, or Tripwire spending time on this. I'm just thinking out loud. Or through the keyboard. Whatever.


Anyway, Support is a beast. And it's not really because of his grenade capacity and damge bonus, or because of his tweaked runspeed, or because of the 101 tricks people are discovering. It's because of his shotguns. As someone mentioned on another thread, if you want to clear a hallway, whip out the coach gun and blast both barrels. Empty hallway. Or a couple of pump/AA12/CS blasts, empty hallway. I've seen plenty of instances where Support will do trash cleaning much better than a Commando, at least at short to medium range.

So I'm wondering how much it would change if we removed shotgun penetration altogether. I don't know ballistics all that well (hopefull Candlejack will pop into this thread) but from what I'm seeing shot isn't all that good at going through things. I've seen people explaining about home defense and saying that missing a robber with a shotgun won't penetrate through walls (much) and kill Bob the Neighbor across the way, whereas a hunting rifle or heavy pistol could.

If we removed shotgun penetration (and probably compensated a bit by increasing the damage-per-pellet) it would make Support a great close-range, fairly accurate damage spiker, (whereas Demo is a medium to long AoE damage spiker who always has the chance to piss off the ninja Scrake while he's smacking around the Fleshpound with the M32). Lack of penetration could also make trashcleaners like Commando and Firebug a lot more important, since Support can't clear a path through trash with a single shotgun blast and whistle while he reloads. Could also teach better target prioritization, since the pellets won't penetrate through Joe Clot and kill the Siren behind him. And so on.

So, yeah, sorry for the TL;DR. Thoughts?
 

kenijaru

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 17, 2009
182
53
0
Buenos Aires, Argentina
... shotgun penetration ... ballistics ... going through things....penetrate through ...

i think your mistake is to asume KF is a realistic game :p

but seriously... i understand what you mean, i just don't agree. going though things is well... their thing :p

perhaps more penetration but far less damage? so they soften up the crowd instead of making it fade into a "puff" of blood?
 

Olivier

Grizzled Veteran
Jan 19, 2010
3,654
1,071
113
Don't expect any balance modifications to any of the perks/zeds/weapons. Except maybe for the new weapons but that's it. The last KF beta did a "great job" at balancing everything and reintroducing the beta is out of the question... unless John Gibson has enough "free time";) on his hands since he's no longer working on RO2. But since KF has been and will always be a cashcow, if John isn't gonna make money out of it, he's not gonna bother.
 

Gartley

Grizzled Veteran
Dec 27, 2010
2,346
349
83
UK
www.wildcardproductionstudios.co.uk
Since the early days I've always wondered about the shotgun's penetration. I assume it was put in there the same reason the 'nade bonus was there. Before Demo came along it was another an AoE option and they never removed the bonus because the resulting storm of whining wouldn't' be worth it.

But I agree, I've always wanted to see what it'd be like without the penetration bonus.

@Brian Rolling, good point but most people hold that the commando is spot on, so adding penetration would endup tipping the scales on an otherwise balanced perk.

Also to the above comments, what gives you reason to think that? We've seen plenty of tweaks, fixes and extras long after KF got to the shelf.

Also, lol@ 'home defense', if you want to defend yourself you use a shield.
 
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kenijaru

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 17, 2009
182
53
0
Buenos Aires, Argentina
i think your mistake is to asume KF is a realistic game :p

but seriously... i understand what you mean, i just don't agree. going though things is well... their thing :p

perhaps more penetration but far less damage? so they soften up the crowd instead of making it fade into a "puff" of blood?

seriously? -1?
da fuq is wrong with you people?
you can disagree without saying "your post is crap" jeeze
 
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Rhenna

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 26, 2010
267
139
0
Alone in Penn's woods
CAUTION! Boring gun-talk ahead!

*****

The classic buckshot load for a 12ga. shotgun are 9 pellets per round with the following characteristics: (More or less...)

Individual Pellet Weight: 54 grains (3.5g)

Pellet Diameter: .330 inch (8.4mm)
Muzzle Velocity: 1320 feet per second (400m/s)

So, each individual pellet approximates a handgun-class projectile, give or take a bit. The payoff lies in the case where all, or most, of the pellets strike the same target, simultaneously. Under those conditions, the mass of the total payload could be as high as 486 grains, (31.5g), and while the resulting effect isn't the same as a single projectile of that mass, it can be pretty devastating. This
isn't the appropriate venue to be discussing firearm-related trauma, but I can attest to seeing examples of buckshot going entirely through deer.

The case that shotguns are better in a domestic environment for personal defense is when a shell with MUCH smaller diameter shot is used, such as those used to hunt pheasants or rabbits, as each individual pellet lacks the mass to be overly penetrative. A 12ga. shell loaded with an ounce, (28.3g), of #6 shot, (2.8mm diameter), contains over 300 pellets! Individually, each pellet isn't likely to endanger neighbor Bob, at least not as much as a single, heavier projectile from a handgun or rifle would. However, at living-room distances, Mr. Home Invader is likely to receive the brunt of these relatively tiny projectiles, and collectively, these would quite probably represent a major turning-point in his life.


I trust that all of this doesn't represent an example of *Too Much Information* for anyone...


*****

I'd leave the shot pellet penetration as it is. If I were going to tweak anything shotgun-related, I'd say that the HS has WAY too much spread. I'm not advocating reducing it to the point where it would be in any way difficult to tell it apart from the other shotguns, but, I feel a little reduction would be desirable. Nobody IRL would tolerate how loose and ragged a shot-pattern from the HS is, currently. But, I'll concede that, as kenijaru wisely points out, this isn't Real-Life
 

Steeps

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 14, 2010
251
87
0
USA
Nerfing/removing shotgun penetration is one way of balancing the perk but I'm not convinced that it is the best way to go about doing this. Right now support has a defined role (close quarters cleanup guy) and nerfing his damage will almost turn him into a commando with no range. There's nothing wrong with being the hard hitter. The problem with support is he is the hard hitter that can do everything else.

Support needs something to make him more team reliant and/or give him some glaring weakness/downside (speed nerf, reduced range, etc). Commandos need their team to take out scrakes and fleshpounds, demolitions need their commandos and supports to protect them, but supports don't need anything aside from "kill along with me".
 

scary ghost

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 13, 2010
900
338
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California
One idea I've seen thrown around a while ago is to have no penetration for big guys, like sc, fp and bloat. Shotgun pellets still work as normal against the small stuff, just the big (fat) stuff can absorb the pellets.
 

Islidox

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 8, 2011
252
29
0
NJ, USA
Here's some info on shotgun penetration. Buckshot can penetrate walls and doors, so it isn't out of the realm for the support to have penetration abilities on undead specimens. However, birdshot can also be used in lieu of buckshot and has far more pellets but little to no penetration. Then there's the slugshot that fires a solid round that can pierce through several walls but there is no area of effect other than a bigger exit wound.

A support without penetration will destroy his value as being able to hold down chokepoints. Without penetration, the support is more than likely to be overrun by specimens very quickly due to long reload animation. The support is already plagued by slow running speed and long reloads. Taking away the penetration ability would really nerf the support class.

If anything, the support's bonus on explosives should be nerfed of taken away. This allows demolitions a more pronounced role in taking out groups of specimens and the most effective perk to take out fleshpounds other than sharps/zerks. As it stands, the support can take on any specimen with ease unless being surrounded.
 

Splatpope

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 1, 2012
1,300
250
0
Belgium
I think we're missin something here :

Why is the support called... support ?


Cause I really don't get how he's supporting anything other the whole team, by being overpowered.

If anything, we should turn the support into a... well, support perk with special stuff to boost your team.

Right now, we might aswell rename the perk "Shotgunner"
 

CandleJack

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 2, 2009
3,408
1,060
0
VIC
First off, I'm not quite sure where this thread should go. Not quite a suggestion, not quite about tactics, but also not quite random general discussion. If it needs to be moved, do so.

Second, I'm not completely in favor of enacting this, or Tripwire spending time on this. I'm just thinking out loud. Or through the keyboard. Whatever.


Anyway, Support is a beast. And it's not really because of his grenade capacity and damge bonus, or because of his tweaked runspeed, or because of the 101 tricks people are discovering. It's because of his shotguns. As someone mentioned on another thread, if you want to clear a hallway, whip out the coach gun and blast both barrels. Empty hallway. Or a couple of pump/AA12/CS blasts, empty hallway. I've seen plenty of instances where Support will do trash cleaning much better than a Commando, at least at short to medium range.

So I'm wondering how much it would change if we removed shotgun penetration altogether. I don't know ballistics all that well (hopefull Candlejack will pop into this thread) but from what I'm seeing shot isn't all that good at going through things. I've seen people explaining about home defense and saying that missing a robber with a shotgun won't penetrate through walls (much) and kill Bob the Neighbor across the way, whereas a hunting rifle or heavy pistol could.

If we removed shotgun penetration (and probably compensated a bit by increasing the damage-per-pellet) it would make Support a great close-range, fairly accurate damage spiker, (whereas Demo is a medium to long AoE damage spiker who always has the chance to piss off the ninja Scrake while he's smacking around the Fleshpound with the M32). Lack of penetration could also make trashcleaners like Commando and Firebug a lot more important, since Support can't clear a path through trash with a single shotgun blast and whistle while he reloads. Could also teach better target prioritization, since the pellets won't penetrate through Joe Clot and kill the Siren behind him. And so on.

So, yeah, sorry for the TL;DR. Thoughts?

Well yes, that is all good and well; however penetration is a well-established game mechanic and short of a mutator to test this out, all we're doing is theorycrafting.

I'll leave this link here, since it can explain a shotgun's penetration better than i can, with pictures! :)

[url]http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm[/URL]
 

ChairmanMurder[Forge]

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 24, 2011
480
107
0
34
Sunny, Sunny California
Jesus Christ, no.

Getting rid of support's penetration will get rid of its purpose as a chokepoint-holder. It'll then be reduced to a point-blank range version of the Sharpshooter. How very useless.
I see your point. The thing is, though, is that he's too damned good at holding that chokepoint. A couple of shotgun blasts and he's cleared the hallway of anything below Scrake, giving him time to reload and wait for the next mob.

There's nothing wrong with being the hard hitter. The problem with support is he is the hard hitter that can do everything else.

Support needs something to make him more team reliant and/or give him some glaring weakness/downside (speed nerf, reduced range, etc). Commandos need their team to take out scrakes and fleshpounds, demolitions need their commandos and supports to protect them, but supports don't need anything aside from "kill along with me".
Which is what got me thinking. Unless flanked, Support can kill anything below Scrake with a couple of pump shotgun blasts, or a double barrel blast. Demo can do something similar, but he's balanced out by his self-damage and his smoke. Firebug can panic-fire into oncoming mobs, but his flames have the same balance as the Demo's smoke. Commando can also mow down mobs, but he's very vulnerable to big specimens.

I'm just brainstorming ways as to how the Support can be made reliant on a team, as you said above. There's nothing wrong with him being a heavy hitter. I completely agree. I just think it's a bit cheap that he can hit hard... everything at the same time.


One idea I've seen thrown around a while ago is to have no penetration for big guys, like sc, fp and bloat. Shotgun pellets still work as normal against the small stuff, just the big (fat) stuff can absorb the pellets.
That actually sounds like a very good idea. Would the coding be hard to make a modified shotgun for that?

A support without penetration will destroy his value as being able to hold down chokepoints. Without penetration, the support is more than likely to be overrun by specimens very quickly due to long reload animation. The support is already plagued by slow running speed and long reloads. Taking away the penetration ability would really nerf the support class.
Which is kind of what I'm looking for. He should be able to be overrun without assistance from the team.

Also, Support actually isn't slow. He's technically the third fastest perk.

If anything, the support's bonus on explosives should be nerfed of taken away. This allows demolitions a more pronounced role in taking out groups of specimens and the most effective perk to take out fleshpounds other than sharps/zerks. As it stands, the support can take on any specimen with ease unless being surrounded.
There was a similar discussion about this back... I think last Christmas? I forgot. But the consensus from several players was that Support was damned powerful, but not because of his explosive bonus. It was because of his shotguns.



Well yes, that is all good and well; however penetration is a well-established game mechanic and short of a mutator to test this out, all we're doing is theorycrafting.
Well, everything has to start with theory, haha.

I know enough of the game code that I could make non/lower-penetrating versions of the shotguns, but I'm not sure what value to start with. If we, say, remove penetration, should his damage increase by, say, 25%? 50%?
 
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ChairmanMurder[Forge]

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 24, 2011
480
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Sunny, Sunny California
If you could make two sets, that could be swell.

One set of shotties where stats are unchanged, except pellets will not penetrate through... I guess Bloat, Husk, Scrake, and Fleshie.

Second set could be reduced or removed penetration, but with improved pellet damage. Problem is I have no idea how much to increase damage by. Hope we can hash some ideas out in this thread.
 
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Ivarvv

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 25, 2011
63
45
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Argentina
Again.

Again.

Why always trying to ruin this game with this type of comment, try to give positive suggestions to improve the game.

Nothing to "remove" or "reduce".
 
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