Remove trader location marker in Suc/HoE during round?

  • Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/
  • Weve updated the Tripwire Privacy Notice under our Policies to be clearer about our use of customer information to come in line with the EU General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) rules that come into force today (25th May 2018). The following are highlights of our changes:


    We've incorporated the relevant concepts from the GDPR including joining the EU and Swiss Privacy Shield framework. We've added explanations for why and how Tripwire processes customer data and the types of data that we process, as well as information about your data protection rights.



    For more information about our privacy practices, please review the new Privacy Policy found here: https://tripwireinteractive.com/#/privacy-notice

hipnox

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 9, 2010
326
137
0
(apologize in advance if this has been mentioned before)

What if we disable the Trader Location indicator arrow for the duration of each match in Suicidal / HoE?

The Trader's location remains hidden until the wave ends, when it's reveal until the beggining of the next one.

This has a few effects on the game:

> It removes zed herding at the end of each wave, which not only made the match longer, but was essentially a way to "get more trader time".

> It makes the game harder. Now, players cannot anticipate the new trader location and move toward it mid-wave (or more precisiely, near the end of the wave), which in turn forces them to either pick camping spots that are relatively close to most trader posts, or being forced to hold their own wherever they can.

Less time to shop translates into less time to get back in position on ye olde fox hole, and in some maps, it makes it impossible to get back in time for the next wave.

This has the effect of keeping the players on the run, holing up in whatever place they find, instead of goin back again and again to the same place.

or am i overestimating the awesome power of the trader arrow?
 
Last edited:

nutterbutter

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 8, 2010
2,017
1,281
0
I think it would be a bad idea. On well known maps like Biotics, Foundry, West London, and others the trader arrow isn't really needed.

On new maps, especially not the ones included by TWI, no trader arrow can mean certain death. A trader location on a different floor can be impossible to find in time. Sometimes the team has to run away from the trader direction to a door in order to get to the trader.

Removing the trader arrow would make the game almost impossible for any perk other than zerker. The extra speed would be necessary. Having weapons that don't require ammo would be necessary as well. Same as having the built in armor of the zerker. Any other perk misses a trader wave and they're screwed.
 

Zerginfestor

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 12, 2012
496
1
0
Nevada, Las Vegas
Possibly one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. 'Flying Blind' in some games is great, as the level/map itself (basically an entire 'world' for the player) makes sure the player can survive until he/she finds a trader to trade weapon/loot for food and such, even then MOST of these games come with a map or 'compass' to point wherever the location may be. Killing Floor is totally different in each step. Not only is it brutal on players in some maps, but it's downright mean when going up the difficulty. Sorry, but this IS the worst thing I heard so far.
 
Last edited:

Arblarg

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 24, 2012
1,430
6
0
Illinois, U.S.
Possibly one of the worst ideas I have ever heard.
Yep.

Hey op, while you're at it, why don't you just remove the trader all together? I mean, anything more than the 9mm and knife is way too op (ofc, knife is totally op). Oh, there is a mutator for this.

Removing just the red dust path on trader waves would be more sensible, it would require you to know your map layout, which you should by Suicidal | HoE.
 

hipnox

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 9, 2010
326
137
0
Removing the trader arrow would make the game almost impossible for any perk other than zerker. The extra speed would be necessary. Having weapons that don't require ammo would be necessary as well. Same as having the built in armor of the zerker. Any other perk misses a trader wave and they're screwed.


Possibly one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. 'Flying Blind' in some games is great, as the level/map itself (basically an entire 'world' for the player) makes sure the player can survive until he/she finds a trader to trade weapon/loot for food and such, even then MOST of these games come with a map or 'compass' to point wherever the location may be. Killing Floor is totally different in each step. Not only is it brutal on players in some maps, but it's downright mean when going up the difficulty. Sorry, but this IS the worst thing I heard so far.

Yep.

Hey op, while you're at it, why don't you just remove the trader all together? I mean, anything more than the 9mm and knife is way too op (ofc, knife is totally op). Oh, there is a mutator for this.

Removing just the red dust path on trader waves would be more sensible, it would require you to know your map layout, which you should by Suicidal | HoE.


well, considering your all didn't read it correctly, yes, it is the stupidest idea ever.


However, if you actually take the time to read the post (it's not that big) you might notice that it says to just remove the trader arrow WHILE THE WAVE IS TAKING PLACE.

The Trader's location remains hidden until the wave ends, when it's reveal until the beggining of the next one.

When you are in between waves, THE ARROW (and red marker fume) IS STILL THERE.

it only hides the arrow while Zeds are still alive. Once all zeds are dead and the wave is over, then you get to see the trader.

Reading is tech guys
 
Last edited:

Zerginfestor

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 12, 2012
496
1
0
Nevada, Las Vegas
well, considering your all didn't read it correctly, yes, it is the stupidest idea ever.


However, if you actually take the time to read the post (it's not that big) you might notice that it says to just remove the trader arrow WHILE THE WAVE IS TAKING PLACE.



When you are in between waves, THE ARROW (and red marker fume) IS STILL THERE.

it only hides the arrow while Zeds are still alive. Once all zeds are dead and the wave is over, then you get to see the trader.

Reading is tech guys

I read it well enough, so mind the comments. This is still beyond terrible of an idea, especially in large maps, to the point of screwing the entire team if they are bound to be unlucky enough to be on the far side of the map when DING DING DING! "hey guys! the trader has opened up shop! The bad news is..it's about 182 meters away! Have fun" or better, it's 5 meters according to your arrow, but it's 3 stories up (an Office moment). This needs major rethinking, because I doubt this was well-thought out.

in fact, this has nothing to do with Skill or 'challenging' but rather blind luck, which is rather piss-poor of an idea.
 
Last edited:

hipnox

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 9, 2010
326
137
0
So, according to you, herding around 3 or 4 zeds while the entire team moves to the trader position in order to end the wave right at the traders door, allowing them to get back in time to that same hole they've been hiding in (and will continue to hide) for the entirety of the game is good design..

but

having the players actually roam the map, force them to fight outside of their comfort zone and choose camping locations based on possible trader proximity instead on the same boring hall over and over is bad design...


Doesn't zed herding kinda defeat the purpose of a tight trader timer?


Yes, it will make the game a lot harder.. that's the idea. If big maps like farm are a problem, just increase it to 80 seconds or so.

But if you actually like herding zeds, repeatedly stocking and going back to the same boring @ss hallway for 10 waves, more power to you.
 
Last edited:

Zerginfestor

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 12, 2012
496
1
0
Nevada, Las Vegas
So, according to you, herding around 3 or 4 zeds while the entire team moves to the trader position in order to end the wave right at the traders door, allowing them to get back in time to that same hole they've been hiding in (and will continue to hide) for the entirety of the game is good design..

but

having the players actually roam the map, force them to fight outside of their comfort zone and choose camping locations based on possible trader proximity instead on the same boring hall over and over is bad design...


Doesn't zed herding kinda defeat the purpose of a tight trader timer?


Yes, it will make the game a lot harder.. that's the idea.

But if you actually like herding zeds, repeatedly stocking and going back to the same boring hallway for 10 waves, more power to you.

That's absolutely not the point. The point is you're throwing blind luck into an equation to make things challenging, which is faulty as it is. IN FACT, this FORCES players, or in way, aggressively persuades players to sit in the center of all trade locations and camp it out, rather then positioning themselves in different locations by the trader (or not, it's their decision). What you're asking is not harder, but rather would make the game dull. The game has always enforced camping/kiting, most teams I witness only move to get into a better camping position. I never (for now) seen a full-on moving kiting crew that supports one another. This is not forcing them outside of their comfort zone, this is literally forcing themselves into their comfort zone so much it collapses and becomes a comfort singularity.

What game does:
Player---goes to Trader location with Zeds on his trail or beginning of the wave anyhow to ensure safety-->Trader

What you want:
Trader possible location<-------Player------->Trader Possible location.
The player is obviously forced to just settle in the center and deal with the surrounding horde, as this is natural in human nature to 'keep all paths open and in check', thus might make things confusing at first, but then it'll quickly turn into another 'set up shop' location, to the point of being either boring, or downright stupid. Humans are creative like that, we'll try our best to make a 'middle ground' to make dispersion to our hope of victory easy, so no, this doesn't exactly help.


Finally, 1:00 isn't just made to find the trader, it's also for BUYING weaponry, and to moving out. Most of the Trader locations so far are deathtraps, usually with multiple openings for Zeds to come pouring through (ironic, the very place people are happy to be in to get an arsenal of mass destruction is also places they would never want to set up shop in.) What you're enforcing is if players follow your guidelines and rules, you're essentially screwing them over to the point 90-95% of most HoE games will result in a wipe because of blind luck.
 

Arblarg

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 24, 2012
1,430
6
0
Illinois, U.S.
But if you actually like herding zeds, repeatedly stocking and going back to the same boring @ss hallway for 10 waves, more power to you.
Yes, I like doing this because its a completely valid strategy. It is how people have played KF since ever. Why getting your supplies needs to be tied to luck I haven't a clue, but whatever. Zerg is much better at getting the point I'm trying to convey across.

I don't get what is with you and your hate towards holing up. What do you do? Kite the whole game?

People have their own strategy for playing this game. In a public server, getting people to co-operate in even leaving the last zed alive is a challenge. Why you insist on making something that doesn't need to be difficult such a pain is beyond me.

We did read your op, op, we understood what you wanted. We labelled it as stupid. Go ahead and make it a mutator if you even know how to code. Some people may like rolling the dice every wave just to get their stuff, most people wont though. It is not something that needs to be vanilla by any sense of decency. Please go play random games in lower difficulties and see just how people scramble. You may learn that the top 10% of players in this game make up a very, VERY small portion of the active players.
 

hipnox

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 9, 2010
326
137
0
I don't get what is with you and your hate towards holing up. What do you do? Kite the whole game?

Yeah, because when i think of Killing Floor and maps like bedlam, with it's beautiful atmosphere, intricate design, dark corridors that encourage the use of flashlight weapons, and several distinct color coded fighting locations, i think of a single, long boring corridor, 10 ft away from the spawn point, where me and 5 other guys camp in a tight cluster, firing in the same direction for 10 waves in a row. Now that's killing floor!


god forbid some actually likes to *gasp* move around, engage on different locations, not working the predictable AI paths, not being stranded on the same spot for an entire game. No, that's crazy talk.

Why do they even bother making big maps in the first place?
 
Last edited:

Zerginfestor

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 12, 2012
496
1
0
Nevada, Las Vegas
Yeah, because when i think of Killing Floor and maps like bedlam, with it's beautiful atmosphere, intricate design, dark corridors that encourage the use of flashlight weapons, and several distinct color coded fighting locations, i think of a single, long boring corridor, 10 ft away from the spawn point, where me and 5 other guys camp in a tight cluster, firing in the same direction for 10 waves in a row. Now that's killing floor!


god forbid some actually likes to *gasp* move around, engage on different locations, not working the predictable AI paths, not being stranded on the same spot for an entire game. No, that's crazy talk.

Why do they even bother making big maps in the first place?

This makes absolutely no sense, then again, my teams have always camped in different sections of maps, moving about when things either got really hairy, or depending on the location and situation. We never camped in one place 24/7 because it was usually a death sentence on latter waves.
 

Althamus

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 13, 2012
1,311
21
0
I like this idea, however the counter-argument of guys that maps such as Mountain Pass and Farm, or Offices and Hospital, where traders are really hella far away, would mean that you would take the majority of your trading time getting to the trader.


Although don't forget, with Offices (for example) you could fight as per normal, and with 3 zeds left to go, just move to the centre of the map. At the centre, you'd take maybe 30-35 secs to get to the trader, 10 secs trading, and still give you 15-20 secs to get most of the way back again. It'd be harder, but not impossible that way.


Actually, I do like this idea (lol). I just don't think it changes -that- much, because instead of moving to trader during last few zeds, you just move to map centre and spend an extra few secs running the last distance to the trader. You'd always get there, always have enough time to trade, and (depending on how far from the camping spot), get all the way/most of the way/halfway back.
 

Hippox

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 15, 2012
157
0
0
There's nothing stupid about this idea, other than talking as if to make it an official addition to the game. That's why some people rage at it. The basic idea, which is what I choose to focus on here, sounds like a lot fun as a mutator, and I hope to see it happen as such.

I really like feeling lost and in the dark! (which is a plus in a survival game). And you'd just move to the middle of the map at the end of the round, as Althamus said, too.

I think such a mutator would work great in a private party, at least.
 
Last edited:

Zerginfestor

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 12, 2012
496
1
0
Nevada, Las Vegas
I like this idea, however the counter-argument of guys that maps such as Mountain Pass and Farm, or Offices and Hospital, where traders are really hella far away, would mean that you would take the majority of your trading time getting to the trader.


Although don't forget, with Offices (for example) you could fight as per normal, and with 3 zeds left to go, just move to the centre of the map. At the centre, you'd take maybe 30-35 secs to get to the trader, 10 secs trading, and still give you 15-20 secs to get most of the way back again. It'd be harder, but not impossible that way.


Actually, I do like this idea (lol). I just don't think it changes -that- much, because instead of moving to trader during last few zeds, you just move to map centre and spend an extra few secs running the last distance to the trader. You'd always get there, always have enough time to trade, and (depending on how far from the camping spot), get all the way/most of the way/halfway back.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, this idea enforces camping or simply moving to the center and waiting patiently for the right trader location. He's trying to make it more difficult, yet knowing the human mind, this is merely delaying the inevitable "Let's open shop here, boys". It's actually interesting, seeing as he hates camping in the same spot, yet this idea literally enforces this. It's mind boggling.
 

leadpancakes

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 17, 2011
7
0
0
I think this idea is actually pretty good. It can encourage teamwork outside of just healing each other.

In large maps where simply staying in the middle ground of two traders isn't viable, the team can split into two groups, each heading towards one possible trader spot. The group which went to the actual trader can buy extra guns for their team mates (making support's bonus carry a team benefit in addition to a self benefit) and then regroup later.

Having to decide on a location to regroup, shuffle weapons, and toss money at each other requires communication and teamwork, which KF currently doesn't require much of.
 

Spicy

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 8, 2010
1,219
162
0
33
New England, the Newer England
Hospital Horrors.

/thread

Spoiler!
 

Althamus

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 13, 2012
1,311
21
0
I don't get why people are throwing up their hands and saying "IT'LL CHANGE THE WORLD."

At the moment, with 3 zeds to go, people go to the trader.

After the change, people will fight their waves in EXACTLY the same spots or ways, but with 3 zeds to go, people will go to the map centre. Then when trader time starts, move on to the trader as normal.
Experienced players (who know where trader locations are) will just take up to 30 secs to get there, which means either finding a new spot to hodl out, not the *gasp* spot that everyone holds out at, or spending the first 10 secs of the wave fighting through to get back to their normal spot.

Hardly gamebreaking.