Reload canceling - useful or no?

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

We're all aware that ADS reload canceling used to be sweet as.

When you input to the console "showdebug weapon" [minus the quotation marks, of course] it'll tell you in green text about your weapon. When you fire and then hit your reload button:

• Without Tac Reload, your ammo counter updates in 2.1169 seconds for the AR-15
• Without Tac Reload, your entire reload animation finishes in 3.0748 seconds

Now, when you melee bash, it'll tell you the timer for the animation. The value is 1.0995 seconds. So if you're reloading an AR-15, the melee bash will actually lengthen the period of time that you're not able to fire during reload+melee bash by about one-tenth of a second. Bear in mind, this is the AR-15 I've used as a baseline.

As a sidenote, Leadership doesn't affect your own reload times, as far as the debug information is concerned.

Other Commando weapons:

• SA80 - 2.244s and 3.118s respectively for ammo counter and entire animation
• SA80 - Tac Reload - 1.2307 and 1.9312s respectively
• AK-12 - 2.3167 and 3.3s respectively for their ammo counter and entire animation
• AK-12, Tac Reload - 1.5172 and 2.2931s respectively
• SCAR-H - 1.7442s and 2.7768s respectively
• SCAR-H - Tac Reload - 1.3063 and 2.0748s respectively

Also bear in mind that the AR-15's ammo counter updates in ~61.7% of the time, Tac Reload vs without, whilst the SA80 Tac Reload is ~54.8% of the reload time, Tac Reload vs without. Not a huge difference, but it's noticeable over time.

So with Commando weapons, melee bash canceling is [as far as I can tell] in a literal sense, a waste of time.

Edit: in actuality, the SCAR-H, the SA80 and AR-15 have the same melee bash times, whilst the AK-12 has an even slower melee bash. This makes melee bash canceling with the AK-12 even less desirable.

The only other perk I'm really intent on focusing on is Gunslinger, as the other perks don't really have much issue with reload canceling far as I can tell. These are all from empty.

Dual 1858s without Speed Loader:

• 2.4805s for the ammo counter to update
• 3.7077s for the entire animation
• 0.5895s for the melee bash animation

This weapon gains a benefit from reload canceling via melee bash of 0.6377s


Dual 1858s with Speed Loader:

• 1.661s for the ammo counter to update
• 2.8623s for the entire animation to be complete
• 0.5895s for the melee bash animation

If you're quick, you can save yourself about .611s even with Speed Loader.


Single 1858, without Speed Loader:

• 1.8123s for ammo counter
• 2.3854s for entire animation

Seems folly to melee cancel here.


Single 1858, with Speed Loader:

• 1.05s for ammo counter
• 1.543s for entire animation

I wouldn't bother reload canceling this either.

One quirk about the 1858 - the ammo counter update for the single 1858 is faster reloaded from empty than it is with rounds remaining, even though the total animation time is the same. With Speed Loader, the ammo counter updates slower for partial reload than a full reload also.

With dual 1858s, the ammo counter updates about 0.04s slower from a partial reload than for empties. In effect, dual 1858s are better off completely spent, and then melee bash canceled, whereas single 1858 is better off not canceling.

M1911s:

• Without Speed Loader, from empty, duals ammo counter in 1.3255s, animation complete in 2.9758s - melee cancel-approved
• Without Speed Loader, partial reload, 1.3681s ammo counter, 2.9709s complete animation - melee cancel-approved
• With Speed Loader, from empty - 0.7933s ammo counter, 1.8365s complete - melee cancel-approved
• With Speed Loader, partial reload - 1.0811s ammo counter, 2.2589s complete - melee cancel-approved

You're better off completely expending the magazines if you have Speed Loader - if not, it's not that big of a difference if you reload from partial empties. Without creating yet another bullet-point list for the M1911, reload canceling is not really an option for singles. At all.

Desert Eagle single - better off time-wise expending the entire magazine. It's a saving of about .2 to .25 seconds.

Desert Eagle duals:

• Without Speed Loader - 1.3s ammo counter update, 3.003s complete animation - melee cancel-approved
• Without Speed Loader - partial reload - slightly slower [~.1 to .15 seconds slower overall]
• With Speed Loader - 0.8928s ammo counter update, 1.9576s complete - melee cancel-approved
• With Speed Loader - partial reload - 1.1073s ammo counter, 2.3325 complete animation - melee cancel-approved

Bear in mind the melee bash is slightly slower with single pistols than it is with duals.

.500s:

• No SL - from empty - 1.7178s, 3.65s complete - melee cancel-approved - partial reloads same values
• SL - from empty - 1.7806s ammo counter update, 2.1069s complete - not approved
• SL - partial reload - 1.7806s update, 2.0574s complete - not approved

After all that, I don't know what it means either.

 

[Vaser]

After all that, I don't know what it means either.

 

[Oy The Destroyer]

So basically the data suggests that reload cancelling is only an effective time saver if you're rocking two pistols. Good to know I guess. What about dual 9mm? I know that's also faster to cancel than wait.

As far as the future of this mechanic is concerned, I'd rather they just reintroduce ADS cancel, and increase the minimum reload time to compensate. That way we can still achieve the same effect of reducing reload time, without resorting to these awkward workarounds like bashing the air.

 

[simplecat]

Code-wise Leadership should apply on every player including skill owner. However it only active during the wave time. Have you tested it during the trader time or on some special testing map?

 

[vealck]

Well, what really would be nice is if reload could be cancelled by sprinting.
Weapon change/bash/ads is not nearly as useful as sprint cancel would be.

 

[DrearierSpider]

I think this thread had the right idea:

http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=115088

There are definitely times when waiting for a reload animation to complete (especially the "settle" animation at the end) just isn't ideal, but I do feel you should have to go as far as chambering the round rather than just inserting the magazine. Even on weapons like the SCAR, it was just cheap how much time ads cancel could shave off.

 

[ScrakeMorgendorffer]

Code-wise Leadership should apply on every player including skill owner. However it only active during the wave time. Have you tested it during the trader time or on some special testing map?

Yeah it was done on an adaptation of SomeTestMap which has a gametype that's stuck in trader time.

I tested during normal wave and you're correct - the Leadership skill does affect self.

 

[xmrmeow]

with boosted swap speed on gunslinger, especially if you plan on using the gun you swap to, it's way better to reload cancel than wait it out.

 

[HunBonus]

Honestly I didn't slog through entire OP but as soon as I read "+ the melee bash" I was like
"Dude, we switch to knife and back to primary, not melee bash"

 

[Reptilian]

Honestly I didn't slog through entire OP but as soon as I read "+ the melee bash" I was like
"Dude, we switch to knife and back to primary, not melee bash"

Bash on dualies is super quick though.

 

[MrRogersBestNeighbor]

Bash on dualies is super quick though.

So is doing what he said.
I do both depending on the situation. Except I don't switch to knife. I double tap "Last Used Weapon". Depends on the situation because you can't ADS as quick when you double tap.
Although honestly, I'm not sure double tapping is quicker, but it does feel quicker than melee bash.

 

[DBShinigami]

It was obvious from the start than reload cancelling was only *really* useful with dual pistols. At least, we got some numbers now

I just want to add that all your calculation are based on "reload cancel + bash". There is other way to reload cancelling. Also, you never considered that bash could be useful on its own.

Regarding bash : Do not forget that if you can bash a ZED (instead of getting hit while stuck in reloading), you can hit a ZED and avoid taking damage. This is already pretty good if you ask me.

Swapping : You can use reload cancelling while swapping weapon (pretty good if you have the LV5 skill).

Syringe : You can use reload cancelling by using the self-heal key. This way you will heal yourself as soon as the first part of the reloading animation is finished.

To conclude : If you're using dualies, reload cancelling can not really hurt you. Consider your option when you want to reload cancelling : is-it better to bash the ZED in front of you ? Better to swap weapon ? Better to heal yourself ?

Because you're basically doing action you should have done after the full animation, doing it earlier is of course... USEFUL.

 

[FluX]

I've always wondered in so many FPS games that why not fix the reload timer with the time it takes for the reload itself? I am seeing so many games releasing weapons where you can cancel the animation so fast to speed reloads up. It's an easy code fix where you change the timer and that's it lol. Up to 4 digits (for example 4.356). This seems to be a huge problem with the dual weaponry which i've tested recently.

Do I think reload cancelling is a good idea? Yes to a certain point. Not everything should be capable of it due to how some weapons need to be reloaded (for example, the berserker hammer - forgot it's name...really?). There also needs to be a limit on how well the animation has been cleaned up before allowing the cancellation. Some games allow the instant millisecond of when the magazine touches the slot which to me, is a big no no. Why? You got to think of how long it takes for someone to know it's in, react and do another action. It's not a 0.5 second thing lol.

Just to clarify, I used it quite a bit on KF1 most commonly on the syringe.

 

[TheTCREngineer]

I've actually been prepping a video comparison of old KF2 reloads vs new KF2 reloads. Going to be using that debug command if it's there.

 

[qoqonut]

It's absolutely essential for Gunslinger, especially with the Quick Draw perk. Otherwise reloading either kills you or turns the game into a Reloading Simulator. I found it pretty strange there isn't a button assigned to switch to previous weapon by default.

 

[TheTCREngineer]

I would love reload cancelling to be back but I've always thought it was stupid to be able to shoot a gun without a magazine/clip.

 

[NokiaSE]

I would love reload cancelling to be back but I've always thought it was stupid to be able to shoot a gun without a magazine/clip.

Fret not, faerie godmother will always be there to bling the magazine back to the original point whenever we're committing reload canceling.

 

[taiiat]

i have always felt that Video Games should choose whether to globally make Reload Cancelling an expected thing for all Weapons, or for none.

preferably none because visually it looks stupid, and would much prefer Reloading in Video Games balanced around not being able to cancel.

but not to punish people - Reloads should have stages/checkpoints so that you can get Reloads completed over time even if you have very little time available at any given moment.

that being things like removing Magazine, replacing Magazine, pulling Charging handle, Et Cetera. whenever an action as part of a Reload is completed, should 'checkpoint', and resume from there if interrupted.


this achieves more flexibility that Players are looking for, without making things look stupid. even an improvement for high skill Gameplay, allowing more flexible tactical planning.



to be clear, i'm talking about successful Reload Cancelling, not 'i decided to not Reload instead'.
Reload Cancelling that still successfully Reloads is stupid and as noted above can be done MUCH better.

 

[DolphinBuffMan01]

i have always felt that Video Games should choose whether to globally make Reload Cancelling an expected thing for all Weapons, or for none.

preferably none because visually it looks stupid, and would much prefer Reloading in Video Games balanced around not being able to cancel.

but not to punish people - Reloads should have stages/checkpoints so that you can get Reloads completed over time even if you have very little time available at any given moment.

that being things like removing Magazine, replacing Magazine, pulling Charging handle, Et Cetera. whenever an action as part of a Reload is completed, should 'checkpoint', and resume from there if interrupted.


this achieves more flexibility that Players are looking for, without making things look stupid. even an improvement for high skill Gameplay, allowing more flexible tactical planning.



to be clear, i'm talking about successful Reload Cancelling, not 'i decided to not Reload instead'.
Reload Cancelling that still successfully Reloads is stupid and as noted above can be done MUCH better.

This would be really cool, but implementation wise, I'm not sure that they would ever bother. I'm really not knowledgeable enough in regards to animation, but it seems that it would be a bit finicky

 

[xmrmeow]

what I do as GS is use the perk that gives boosted swap speed and auto swap when you run out of ammo; then just reload when I want to switch weapons. That way you don't have to switch to cancel the animation, then switch back.