Release ArmoredBeasts 2.06 beta (update)
- Thread starter Amizaur
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Its a hit-detection issue, its very noticeable on both sides for example on the German side when you are in a Panzer IV it seems to take at least 3 to 4 shots to kill or even damage vehicles no matter where they are hit (yes I have tried to hit the weak spots) the IS-2 for example will always take more than 1 side or rear shot from both the Panzer IV without damage or disable,ect...(please keep in mind the Pz 4's 75mm L/48 is more than capable in penetrating the sides and rear of the IS-2) usually the round makes the penetration effect but there is no visable damage or sometimes very little unproportional damage (slight grey smoke) to the vehicle.
infact if the cupit is in the T-34/85 they usually keep speeding away miraclously undamaged- Im gonna try to fraps this and post it up video is better than the words.
infact if the cupit is in the T-34/85 they usually keep speeding away miraclously undamaged- Im gonna try to fraps this and post it up video is better than the words.
There are many times as well that an enemy vehicle tank will take many penetrating shots from different vehicles as well up to 5 or 6 from 2 different vehicles to finally be subdued for example a t-34/85 took 3 of my Panzer IV rounds and 2 from a stug III at close range under he still managed to kill the Stug III before dying-
. It usually happens more often on those buggy and ugly non-official verisons of RO-Debrecen.
. It usually happens more often on those buggy and ugly non-official verisons of RO-Debrecen.
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thats not a bug its a feature,
ami once explained how it works. there are no fix dmg values for penetrating hits. there is a maximum dmg and a minimum dmg for every specific round. the actual dmg done to the penetrated vehicle is something random between this two values. if you hit a special zone like the gun or the engine this random dmg will be multiplied with a factor.
especially with the german 75x48 this minimum dmg is very low. if you have bad luck it can happen that you have to penetrate an enemy tank very often, because you only score the minimum dmg with every round.
i will try to explain it with some values that are not exact.
lets assume:
the t3485 has 650 HP
the 75x48 will do dmg between 70 and 500
if you have very bad luck it can take up to 10 penetrating hits to kill the t34.
i dont know if this min value is still that low but back in this version with this debug messages i scored some 90 dmg hits with the 75x48.
on the other hand you can still take out the t34 with some luck and a hit to the engine.
this in combination with the bad accuracy of the 75x48 makes you playing lotto if you use the p4.
the cone of fire is enough randomness. a duell between a p4 and a t34 in 2.08 is like playing dice. this is not realistic and this is not fun.
IMO this system is not good to be friendly. the "lost rounds" are acctually coded into the mutator as a feature.
the dmg should be fix or maybe a little bit random. the way to go are more weak points and special hitboxes with special effects. CC does it right.
the penetration in 2.08 works fine, but the dmg calculation is a bit off.
i would really like to try ab2.08s penetration and gun hitbox with the dmg values and the ammobox from "vanilla" ro.
mfg Arnold
ami once explained how it works. there are no fix dmg values for penetrating hits. there is a maximum dmg and a minimum dmg for every specific round. the actual dmg done to the penetrated vehicle is something random between this two values. if you hit a special zone like the gun or the engine this random dmg will be multiplied with a factor.
especially with the german 75x48 this minimum dmg is very low. if you have bad luck it can happen that you have to penetrate an enemy tank very often, because you only score the minimum dmg with every round.
i will try to explain it with some values that are not exact.
lets assume:
the t3485 has 650 HP
the 75x48 will do dmg between 70 and 500
if you have very bad luck it can take up to 10 penetrating hits to kill the t34.
i dont know if this min value is still that low but back in this version with this debug messages i scored some 90 dmg hits with the 75x48.
on the other hand you can still take out the t34 with some luck and a hit to the engine.
this in combination with the bad accuracy of the 75x48 makes you playing lotto if you use the p4.
the cone of fire is enough randomness. a duell between a p4 and a t34 in 2.08 is like playing dice. this is not realistic and this is not fun.
IMO this system is not good to be friendly. the "lost rounds" are acctually coded into the mutator as a feature.
the dmg should be fix or maybe a little bit random. the way to go are more weak points and special hitboxes with special effects. CC does it right.
the penetration in 2.08 works fine, but the dmg calculation is a bit off.
i would really like to try ab2.08s penetration and gun hitbox with the dmg values and the ammobox from "vanilla" ro.
mfg Arnold
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What do you mean by "gun hitbox" ? There is no such thing in AB (yet).
Yes the damage has strong random factor. Damage values are fixed, but actual damage done to target is anything from 10% to 150% of shell damage value (for AP, HE, PF, even Satchels).
Do you believe that in real life, you always had to hit enemy tank twice, before it exploded/started to burn ? Sometimes one penetration was enough (if you hit ammo or fuel, or shrapnels from your shell hit ammo/fuel), sometimes a shell could go trough the tank and even not hurt the crew at all (very lucky crew), usually something in between. Some shells were more powerfull and deadly than others, too.
What is not modeled (and should be) is the fact that USUALLY the first penetration, even though it didn't kill the tank (it could be perfectly operational), was enough for the crew to start evacuating. Because some or most of them were wounded, often someone was killed, everyone was shocked. And next penetrating round was very likely to arrive in seconds... so usually everyone wanted to get out of this steel trap as fast as possible after the first penetration, they didn't waited to check if the tank is ok or not (it is not going to be anyway, as enemy loader just put next round in the chamber...).
So in most cases first penetration should AT LEAST in 90% of cases disable the tank from combat for some time (shock), almost always some of crewmembers should be wounded and often someone killed. even in case of such non-fatal penetration.
As there is no crewmember death possibility currently, or any way to paralyse the tank for a while after it was hit, so the players of penetrated tank can return the fire at once and this is not realistic (be it stock RO or AB).
Curenlty in AB so far, only the chance of (fatal tank explosion/fire) OR (all crew being killed/seriously wounded) is considered at the moment (2.08) - and this is visualised as "tank exlosion". The "tank damage" code in AB is very old (from very first versions) and ment to be completly rewritten.
Tank health in AB is going to be based mainly on size of the internal space, how much fuel/ammo is inside, how well protected ect.
For example T-34 tanks had very cramped internal space (all crewmembers close to each other) and unprotected fuel tanks inside the crew compartment - any shell that passed trough them or went off close to them would turn the tank into a torch, with crew burning alive...
As for PzIV vs T-34 duel being a lottery - what would you expect ? Both tanks have almost equal chances, and such frontal duel (very stupid thing) is a lottery.
Maybe you are talking about fact, that even if you fire first and penetrate the enemy, he can be unharm fire after you and kill you ? I second you in that, it's not ok. I'll fix it when I have time, adding crewmember death possibility (hitbox and random) and I would like crew/tank paralysation too.
But in stock game it's almost same. You have to hit enemy twice to kill him (if not hit ammo box). If he reply the fire and he does hit you in ammo box - he can kill you in one shot. Not much difference.
And how it works now (2.08 with 10%....150% of base damage).
shell damage
75L48 435
75L70 500
88L56 650
T34/76 gun 630
T34/85 gun 540
tank health values as in 2.08:
PIVH 600
Panther 650
Tiger 700
T-34/76 470
T-34/85 500
So firing 75L48 against a T-34/85
shell damage 435, target health 540
min damage 43.5, max damage 652.5 , average 348
chance for 1st hit kill: 18.5%
average hits to kill: around 2 penetrations
max possible number of needed hits (target health/min damage): 13
chances that 13 shots are needed: zero
chances that enemy dies only after 5th shot: 1%
it's not statistical analysis, just basic math
statistics would be that in most of cases you need 2 hits, sometimes 1 or 3, rarely 4, very rarely (1%) 5 hits. I think it's perfectly realistic, assuming that IRL you fire at the enemy untill he either explode, starts burning or you see the crew escaping (and then you still want to kill the tank).
Results for 88L56 shell against T-34 would be different of course (most of kills is 1th shot).
The current tank healt values are very old, not reviewed from long time, and will be adjusted in AB 2.081.
I was working on tuning the damage but it was not finished when 2.08 was released, so changes were not included.
The random minimum damage is to be changed from 10% to at least 20% (maybe more, has to be tested), some shell/tank values adjusted.
it would look something like that:
tank health values AB 2.081:
PIVH 540
Panther 560
Tiger 600
T-34/76 500
T-34/85 520
but I can change something.
In 2.09 (when I have the damn time to make and test, the latter taking most of the time) there should be random/hitbox chancs to kill crewmans, and maybe (if I find out/decide how to realise this) a few seconds of "shocked" state after penetration, in which crew can not operate the tank. I would prefer to just back-out or red-out the screen for the "shocked" crewmembers, but I know little about effects so maybe I will just block the tank controls for a while... don't know.
P.S. Someone mentioned "hit detection bug" that is "noticeable" by the fact, that IS-2 hit from the side sometimes is hardly damaged by the shot.
Do I have to set a" AB Wiki" or something, to not explain same things for n-th time ?
First, the "hit detection bug" is something that happens both in stock RO and in AB mod - but in fact in AB it happens muvh more often (and I don't know why... the shell code, part that is called every frame, is unmodified, shell velocity and fundge factor is the same...).
When it happens - so when the shell hit against tank target is not detected properly (or sometimes - maybe not at all) - then there is no penetration at all (in stock game or AB<2.08). There are even no penetration anims/sounds - it looks like if the shell hit dirt under the target of flew right trough it.
And if there is no penetration, there is no damage at all !!
So when you hit an IS-2 and see it "barely smoking" after that, then don't blame the "hit detection bug" because you DID in fact damaged the target (it smokes now) so you did hit and penetrate. Everything is alright. Just damage happened to be low.
And in the end - in 2.08 the "hit detection bug" is partially handled by the code. Most of the time when it happens it should be fixed (for most of front and side hits) . And penetration/damage applied correctly then. You shouldn't even notice.
Please move this discussion to 2.08 thread. http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?p=394377#post394377
Yes the damage has strong random factor. Damage values are fixed, but actual damage done to target is anything from 10% to 150% of shell damage value (for AP, HE, PF, even Satchels).
Do you believe that in real life, you always had to hit enemy tank twice, before it exploded/started to burn ? Sometimes one penetration was enough (if you hit ammo or fuel, or shrapnels from your shell hit ammo/fuel), sometimes a shell could go trough the tank and even not hurt the crew at all (very lucky crew), usually something in between. Some shells were more powerfull and deadly than others, too.
What is not modeled (and should be) is the fact that USUALLY the first penetration, even though it didn't kill the tank (it could be perfectly operational), was enough for the crew to start evacuating. Because some or most of them were wounded, often someone was killed, everyone was shocked. And next penetrating round was very likely to arrive in seconds... so usually everyone wanted to get out of this steel trap as fast as possible after the first penetration, they didn't waited to check if the tank is ok or not (it is not going to be anyway, as enemy loader just put next round in the chamber...).
So in most cases first penetration should AT LEAST in 90% of cases disable the tank from combat for some time (shock), almost always some of crewmembers should be wounded and often someone killed. even in case of such non-fatal penetration.
As there is no crewmember death possibility currently, or any way to paralyse the tank for a while after it was hit, so the players of penetrated tank can return the fire at once and this is not realistic (be it stock RO or AB).
Curenlty in AB so far, only the chance of (fatal tank explosion/fire) OR (all crew being killed/seriously wounded) is considered at the moment (2.08) - and this is visualised as "tank exlosion". The "tank damage" code in AB is very old (from very first versions) and ment to be completly rewritten.
Tank health in AB is going to be based mainly on size of the internal space, how much fuel/ammo is inside, how well protected ect.
For example T-34 tanks had very cramped internal space (all crewmembers close to each other) and unprotected fuel tanks inside the crew compartment - any shell that passed trough them or went off close to them would turn the tank into a torch, with crew burning alive...
As for PzIV vs T-34 duel being a lottery - what would you expect ? Both tanks have almost equal chances, and such frontal duel (very stupid thing) is a lottery.
Maybe you are talking about fact, that even if you fire first and penetrate the enemy, he can be unharm fire after you and kill you ? I second you in that, it's not ok. I'll fix it when I have time, adding crewmember death possibility (hitbox and random) and I would like crew/tank paralysation too.
But in stock game it's almost same. You have to hit enemy twice to kill him (if not hit ammo box). If he reply the fire and he does hit you in ammo box - he can kill you in one shot. Not much difference.
And how it works now (2.08 with 10%....150% of base damage).
shell damage
75L48 435
75L70 500
88L56 650
T34/76 gun 630
T34/85 gun 540
tank health values as in 2.08:
PIVH 600
Panther 650
Tiger 700
T-34/76 470
T-34/85 500
So firing 75L48 against a T-34/85
shell damage 435, target health 540
min damage 43.5, max damage 652.5 , average 348
chance for 1st hit kill: 18.5%
average hits to kill: around 2 penetrations
max possible number of needed hits (target health/min damage): 13
chances that 13 shots are needed: zero
chances that enemy dies only after 5th shot: 1%
it's not statistical analysis, just basic math
statistics would be that in most of cases you need 2 hits, sometimes 1 or 3, rarely 4, very rarely (1%) 5 hits. I think it's perfectly realistic, assuming that IRL you fire at the enemy untill he either explode, starts burning or you see the crew escaping (and then you still want to kill the tank).
Results for 88L56 shell against T-34 would be different of course (most of kills is 1th shot).
The current tank healt values are very old, not reviewed from long time, and will be adjusted in AB 2.081.
I was working on tuning the damage but it was not finished when 2.08 was released, so changes were not included.
The random minimum damage is to be changed from 10% to at least 20% (maybe more, has to be tested), some shell/tank values adjusted.
it would look something like that:
tank health values AB 2.081:
PIVH 540
Panther 560
Tiger 600
T-34/76 500
T-34/85 520
but I can change something.
In 2.09 (when I have the damn time to make and test, the latter taking most of the time) there should be random/hitbox chancs to kill crewmans, and maybe (if I find out/decide how to realise this) a few seconds of "shocked" state after penetration, in which crew can not operate the tank. I would prefer to just back-out or red-out the screen for the "shocked" crewmembers, but I know little about effects so maybe I will just block the tank controls for a while... don't know.
P.S. Someone mentioned "hit detection bug" that is "noticeable" by the fact, that IS-2 hit from the side sometimes is hardly damaged by the shot.
Do I have to set a" AB Wiki" or something, to not explain same things for n-th time ?
First, the "hit detection bug" is something that happens both in stock RO and in AB mod - but in fact in AB it happens muvh more often (and I don't know why... the shell code, part that is called every frame, is unmodified, shell velocity and fundge factor is the same...).
When it happens - so when the shell hit against tank target is not detected properly (or sometimes - maybe not at all) - then there is no penetration at all (in stock game or AB<2.08). There are even no penetration anims/sounds - it looks like if the shell hit dirt under the target of flew right trough it.
And if there is no penetration, there is no damage at all !!
So when you hit an IS-2 and see it "barely smoking" after that, then don't blame the "hit detection bug" because you DID in fact damaged the target (it smokes now) so you did hit and penetrate. Everything is alright. Just damage happened to be low.
And in the end - in 2.08 the "hit detection bug" is partially handled by the code. Most of the time when it happens it should be fixed (for most of front and side hits) . And penetration/damage applied correctly then. You shouldn't even notice.
Please move this discussion to 2.08 thread. http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?p=394377#post394377
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I'm pretty convinced that these bugs are only happening when is large amount of players on the server, when is just like 10 people T34, PzIVH whatever almost always are getting blowing up after 1-2 shots. Even some guy on the DH forum already mentioned this.
http://forums.darkesthourgame.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3000&start=0
"pablouk wrote:
But dont you remember the T-34 and JS II nightmare?? Even on the AB Mod,T-34 Tanks were taking shots that would of destroyed them first time in reality?? Whilst a great improvement on the stock game,it still has moments of b*llsh*t in it."
"Langnasen wrote:
I don't think that's an AB issue, it seems to have something to do with server-load. When a map starts, and not too many people on it, T34s go down to one shot with great regularity. It's after the map has been running for a while and has become heavily populated that the anomoly creeps in.
I've always put it down to ammunition-sabotage at the forced-labour factories."
And it doesn't have any connection with ping, it just seems like all depends on player amount. I don't know what it might affect to that but if you want try to resolve this bug by testing, definately you need to test on full 32/32 server.
This AB mod is great I love it but some people are quite right about AB that sometimes it might really makes people frustrated when after 4 penetrations nothing is happening and then enemy tank is taking you out with 1 shot. But if we only could fix this bug, then this mod would absolutely wonderful. I only hope this mod will inspire other game developers in future to become more serious about tank battles.
http://forums.darkesthourgame.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3000&start=0
"pablouk wrote:
But dont you remember the T-34 and JS II nightmare?? Even on the AB Mod,T-34 Tanks were taking shots that would of destroyed them first time in reality?? Whilst a great improvement on the stock game,it still has moments of b*llsh*t in it."
"Langnasen wrote:
I don't think that's an AB issue, it seems to have something to do with server-load. When a map starts, and not too many people on it, T34s go down to one shot with great regularity. It's after the map has been running for a while and has become heavily populated that the anomoly creeps in.
I've always put it down to ammunition-sabotage at the forced-labour factories."
And it doesn't have any connection with ping, it just seems like all depends on player amount. I don't know what it might affect to that but if you want try to resolve this bug by testing, definately you need to test on full 32/32 server.
This AB mod is great I love it but some people are quite right about AB that sometimes it might really makes people frustrated when after 4 penetrations nothing is happening and then enemy tank is taking you out with 1 shot. But if we only could fix this bug, then this mod would absolutely wonderful. I only hope this mod will inspire other game developers in future to become more serious about tank battles.
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