Regarding Red Orchestra

[Cyper]

When it comes to developing games I bet everyone have heard about accesibility. Basicly, I can describe it as a way to develop a game that everyone can play. You learn it fast, it's easy to play, and it's not complex in any sense. A fullblown arcadegame. This is was most people want. I reckon at least 80% of all gamers want that. I love games like that aswell. A good example of great accesibility is COD. And that's the reason why millions of people play it. Then we probably have these 20%, or maybe less (?), that like games that has a high learning curve, less to non-existent aids, and unforgiving gameplay. A good example of games like this is the Arma series and RO ost.

Now, what does this have to do with RO?

If you don't want to read a wall of text, please don't read further.
When it comes to business the first question a company ask themself tend to be: What audience are we aiming at? What audience is the best one to aim at and why? The answer may seems quite obvious: We should make the game aim at as many people as possible,

 

[Terviz]

Pretty well written and truthful as well. Though the immediate point which rose up in my mind is that what's done is done. This is a good reminder for future releases (and something which should be sent to all the developers out there) but doing any major changes at this point to a game would also be risky since it's been out for a while.

Though I still think that the major advantage that it has over some of the others is the mod support which allows the players to modify and cater the game to a wider audience.

 

[Fedorov]

The thing is, they DID promise a hardcore realism mode, and many options.

Now we realized it was only a strategy to shut us up about how they were prostituting the game, make us promote their crap, and take our money.

All lies. In the end they took the route of appealing to some "abstract huge dormant fanbase of casual CoD players who would suddenly wake up from their slumber and realize that what they wanted to play all their life were realistic WW2 shooters, but they just didn't know that yet".

Ramm Jaeger believes himself a superstar, that will make a game that magically appeals to everyone. They probably removed the options just to force the unlock **** system down our throats, and probably scared that all servers would run realistic settings that would scare away the target audience mentioned above.

What happened to authenticity, to honoring the history, to not using beta as a marketing tool, and to all that stuff?

They may have made their money with RO2... but lost their community, fanbase, the respect, the credibility and the decency. They also made many enemies treating their existing fanbase like crap. Their name is damaged beyond repair, and they deserve it.

 

[nuNce]

The thing is, they DID promise a hardcore realism mode, and many options.

Now we realized it was only a strategy to shut us up about how they were prostituting the game, make us promote their crap, and take our money.

All lies. In the end they took the route of appealing to some "abstract huge dormant fanbase of casual CoD players who would suddenly wake up from their slumber and realize that what they wanted to play all their life were realistic WW2 shooters, but they just didn't know that yet".

Ramm Jaeger believes himself a superstar, that will make a game that magically appeals to everyone. They probably removed the options just to force the unlock **** system down our throats, and probably scared that all servers would run realistic settings that would scare away the target audience mentioned above.

What happened to authenticity, to honoring the history, to not using beta as a marketing tool, and to all that stuff?

They may have made their money with RO2... but lost their community, fanbase, the respect, the credibility and the decency. You also gained many enemies. I think you guys are hurt beyond repair, and you deserve it.

Thank you for saying what I was about to say. Before buying another TWI product, I'll think more than twice. Problem is that RO2 won't probabily change in the way we'd like it to change, so unless some modder does the job, to me the game is quite dead.

 

[Zetsumei]

Things can always change, and I don't have any hard feelings with TWI making whatever game they like to make.

However I do have issues with deceiving the community on some points such as the ranking system the mkb. Very early on an outcast for a lot of those features happened on the forums, and to still them TWI made promises they never lived up on, and haven't even commented on.

Any dev can do whatever they want, but for me to support a dev I want honesty. Not all goals are realistic, and not everything can be made, but at least a dev can admit issues for a community.

In the end i just think that realistic realism and relaxed realism are too close together. It would be better if relaxed realism would be more aimed towards the casual crowd, and the realistic realism aimed towards the realism crowd.

Now its too slow and campy for the relaxed realism crowd (especially as your killer usually doesn't see you comming and when you get killed you didn't see your killer), and its too unrealistic and run and gun for the realistic realism crowd (especially the immersion with class and weapon load outs is lost).

 

[defektive]

RO2 feels like the awkward middle child of the FPS family, which in and of itself isn't why I find myself releasing a slight sigh of dismay every time I think about playing the game; I sigh because TWI fundamentally altered the way that the game plays just prior to release and evidently went back on earlier statements that were made to assuage a community that was deeply concerned about many of the intended design choices. (The mystical, esoteric and apparently all powerful 'Design Team' have a great deal to answer for in this regard.) The net result is a game that tries to be all things to all men but ends up being not particularly great for everyone; however, what stings the most is that RO2 could so easily have dodged awkward mediocrity by including a mode that keeps the happy-camping/gun-bunnies playing (arguably the game as it stands now) and a mode that doesn't kick dirt in the face of the RO:O/realism crowd (you remember, the mode that we were told we were getting in the first place).

tl;dr: RO2 should not have taken the 'Real' out of 'Realism'.

 

[Verluste]

RO2 feels like the awkward middle child of the FPS family,

I'm glad RO2 was not born in pre-BC Sparta.
Would have been rather ugly to see this game in the bottom of a ravine where it could have been developed into so much better in the future.

 

[Major_Day]

Quote:

"The only way to do this in RO2s case is to first of add a real Hardcore mode which basicly would mean an improved version of RO OST meaning no skillpoints, unlocks, lockdowntimer, and simplified weaponhandling, and less HUD details and a more complex control scheme."

This +bigger CA. maps with vehicles is all that is needed (and was promised) to bring back the diehard RO fans.
A hardcore mode that doesn't unrank servers (nobody plays on unranked servers) and where the players own skill gets him kills, rather than super accurate no sway weapons.
On a personal note i would like to see more tank maps, but i'm a diehard and am willing to wait for that.

 

[SolitarioSoldat]

@ Fedorov

I agree with all you said, although there are some things I like in RO2 over ROOST core gameplay wise such as no more stiffness when mowing the soldier,free aim, cover system(although its screws up with other interactions since they are all binded on the same key) etc etc etc.

But when it all comes down to how I would like RO2 to be,I would of liked to be more like ROOST core gameplay wise.

 

[Kleist]

I hope that they give us a great update with a lot of changes inside (christmas isn`t far away ).

If you read in this forum you can read a lot of wishes:

examples:
- no zoom
- no (or less) prototype weapons like the MKb42 or the AVT-40
- no weapon and character upgrades and level up (the changing uniforms are the best upgrade)

- tank gameplay like it was in RO:Ost:
- no super Hull-MG aimbot
- more teamwork in tanks

and so on...


There are a lot of things TWI could do better, i am sure. But the problem is that they don`t communicate with us anymore, we get no informations about there work, we don

 

[Salraine_Chi]

Things can always change, and I don't have any hard feelings with TWI making whatever game they like to make.

However I do have issues with deceiving the community on some points such as the ranking system the mkb. Very early on an outcast for a lot of those features happened on the forums, and to still them TWI made promises they never lived up on, and haven't even commented on.

Any dev can do whatever they want, but for me to support a dev I want honesty. Not all goals are realistic, and not everything can be made, but at least a dev can admit issues for a community.

In the end i just think that realistic realism and relaxed realism are too close together. It would be better if relaxed realism would be more aimed towards the casual crowd, and the realistic realism aimed towards the realism crowd.

Now its too slow and campy for the relaxed realism crowd (especially as your killer usually doesn't see you comming and when you get killed you didn't see your killer), and its too unrealistic and run and gun for the realistic realism crowd (especially the immersion with class and weapon load outs is lost).

Very well put. I have posted about this too and the game could easily have kept both camps happy with the relaxed realism as is or even easier, and the realism much more what the RO1 community expected and with more features like, and including the new mantle system etc.

Trouble is the lure of making money detracted them from that and now BF3 is out and the latest MW soon, a lot of the relaxed realism fans could leave and then we are left with the few hardcore realism nuts hanging around hoping the game is changed and improved or the mods will make it what it should have been in the first place.

I have supported TWI since 2003 and find it hard to believe that RO2 is even by the same people who made the mod and RO: Ost.

Ta

Sal

 

[nebsif]

Reminded me of this post long ago, which the server browser and the whole appeal to both crowds in the most wicked way, prove false. More popular on PC yes, know (TWI) what they are doing, no.

BTW about appealing to both crowds, to appeal to the arcade crowd they added ninja bandages, uber sprint speeds, faster reloads, no sway, kill cams, small tunnel maps, the worst unlock sys in a FPS ever etc, to appeal to the realism crowd.. all they did was lie on those forums about how realisticool and historicool this game would be and how we'd be able to remove the all bullcrap from the servers if we wanted.
(Deployed weapons, weapon resting, high damage and useless coversystem != realistic features, else BF3 in HC mode is also realistic)

 

[Piscator]

All your posts reflect my view as well. I also mentioned the lack of difference between the relaxed and hardcore realism mod. There was the chance to cater for the masses and the realism guys like myself.

TWI did neither and are now facing lower player counts every day it seems.
The "Hey Ramm-Jaeger, what happened to the MkB being a hero weapon only" thread had over 1000 posts but whenever the devs commented they played the issue down or regarded us as a small minority.

Well here we are and what seems to be left is us; the small minority still in hope for a better gameplay. As I wrote before the relaxed settings could have catered for a wider audience with laser guns and Nazi-dinosaur-zombies for all I care but to leave your faithful core community behind and not listen to them at all is a big mistake for a small company. I myself gifted 3 copies of RO2 and several RO to friends and family. Will I do it again? No! I will wait for reviews etc.

The hero class and rare weapons being rare was a cool idea changed last minute to appeal to a wider audience. Well myself I don't need to have every weapon available at all times. This is not MW or COD!!! I know many people cannot accept this and want "their things" but why are they here in the first place?
I will gladly take on the challenge with a bolt rifle with which you could dominate in RO Ost. In RO2 with the latency and the less powerful bolts it is not much fun.

So what now? It is in TWI hands to turn around or leave the game to slowly fade away. My hope is on the modders if they can deliver something special soon it may just revive the game.

It is hard to admit to mistakes and Ramm-Jaeger might not like this criticism but should at least admit that it has its right to exist. The numbers of active players do not lie entirely.

Lastly, I like many things of RO2 but I find it hard to really enjoy it as I think that so much potential was sacrificed for casual reasons.

 

[Kleist]

But TWI can be happy about Origin, maybe some people would play RO2 some month longer.

It

 

[Nervous_Energy]

A well written post (for a change)

However i really don't think there is so much concern required. Its still early days (very) and i dare say a few teams and map makers are getting to grips with the SDK give it another 2-3 months and i am sure there more mods, patches to address things.

The core gameplay is great sure its not RO1 it was never going to be. Give it time this game will flurish.

Besides many folk are playing BF3 and rightly so its a stunning game and has raised the bar for PC gaming which was desperately needed. When the mods come people will come back. I know lots are waiting for in-country 2.

I think all is well in R02 it will just take more time than people are willing to wait.

 

[Colt .45 killer]

Completely agree.

Back when they were feeding us all of that info about there being different modes I thought hey why not. Make two games out of one with greatly varying modes and have relaxed realism be the "gateway drug" into HC mode. Anyone else remember that term being throw around a lot?

Not to be a negatory nabob but Player counts have dropped from the 9.5k release peaks to ~1700 (yesterday was 1680). There are probably a lot of reasons behind this, but I still think that a large portion of the population just dident like the game. The new COD guys screamed camper, and the old ROplayer's required jaw surgery at the sight of insta IS, bandaging, and ~10Mkb's per team on release ( FYRJ ). I think one reviewer nailed it with a sentence about RO2 trying to straddle the fence then crushing its nuts.


And @ Zets:

Yes they can make any game they want, but they had very successfully built up the "Red Orchestra" Brand as a realistic tactical shooter. I really enjoyed Kf because I knew all along it would be a fun zombie shooter with some teamwork and great gunplay. If they started making KF2 and told us it was going to be a zombie shooter and instead released a mystery puzzler....

Yes I realize, preaching at the choir again...

EDIT: LOL
@ Nesbifs earlier post, I looked at the player graphs for Homefront and RO2. They are VERY similar, around 9k on release, and they tank from there. "trust us, we know what we are doing" Yes Ramm we trust you....(/sarcasm)

 

[Krobar]

Meanwhile... Ramm Jaeger at Tripwire Interactive studios...

Ramm: "thanks for the money, retards!"

(Would look better if I didn't have to post from my phone due to power outage)

 

[nuNce]

How can one even compare the atmosphere.

Red Orchestra Danzig Game Film - YouTube
Call Of Red Orchestra - YouTube

 

[The_Emperor]

Absolutely true words here.
I'm sadly done with RO as it feels that Tripwire used us as a cash cow. I well remember that I traveled to Cologne, Germany in 2010 for the Gamescom as Tripwire largely and proudly announced their participation on that event. I actually came to the Gamescom just to see RO2, apart from the new AC Brotherhood from Ubisoft which was also promoted there.
So there was I on the Gamescom, a true fan must go where his game is when the game can not come to him. But haha, guess what? Entrance was only granted to 1st class people (trade visitors with lots of money) those less humans who are/were the community who made the game and Tripwire what they are now, those were refused to set foot into the presenation room. Fairly I must say other game developers such as Crytek made a far better impression: 3D Cinema presentation of Singleplayer gameplay, 20min Multiplayer gaming (yes, you were allowed to play for yourself!) and a take away t-shirt. WOW!

This is exactly what Tripwire should have done back in 2010 but of course if you're presenting something that you put up during let's say 3 months work and then try to keep people hot for the game with stuff that dates from 2008, sure then you can't go for such fireworks.

My visit to the gamescom '10 regarding RO2 was a filthy disappointment.

The final months before the release, Juli, August, September 2011, those were a clear result of making promises and when it comes to keep them. It seems to me that Tripwire still had their 2008 stuff at the ready but badly the time had moved on, three whole years have passed and now what? This is exactly what was Triwpire's situation back then: no real game development at all, great announcements and only 30 days to release date. Then they noticed "****, we gotta get going now!" and released the beta, which was actually the alpha stuff they had been presenting as a next gen shooter on several game conventions. The game now being retail is the true beta, I wonder if we ever see the final version of the game.

And making the beta only available to those who payed already made me pick the smallest possible outload as the boxed version. I will never pay for being able to play a demo or taking part in a beta test.

When the game finally came out, I had to wait for my boxed version, which is nothing outstanding ... well yes it is for the absence of a booklet. Just a quick reference card. Sure this will help new recruits to get into the idea behind RO2's gameplay. Documentation on this game is absolutely poor. Even CoD is doing better. Ah yes CoD, I believe to remember great words about taking over +20% of each CoD's and BF's community. Well this was a bashing own goal, wasn't it? Particularly if you put up a game with such poor performance.

It's sad that such a big fan of RO series as I am (and sure the others in this thread are of no lesser kind) has to say such things about a thing he actually has a huge crush on but there's too many things that were and are annoying ranging from development over beta handling to the final game and its gameplay. Just gross!

Maps have become invested by spawn protection areas due to the lack of quality mapping and the desperate hope to fix those bad skills with no-go-areas.
Spawn camping and killing is present nevertheless. Just to name an excellent example: Grainelevator. It's absolutely awesome to get picked of by mg gunners who positioned themselves on the 5th floor roof of the grainelevator. From here you can sweep off the entire spawn exit areas of the Axis team. How come that there's no spawn protection area?

Hitdetection and on and on. Too many things to count. I just wonder why this all has to be here. RO1 had several issues including unrealistic weapon handling but it was a great game. It had/s good hitdetection, fine maps, actually one would believe Tripwire just needs to port this to a new engine and add some features like blindfire and coversystem ... but no! We go for a CoD-BF-RO mixture bastard and we will show all the world that no one can match with us, Tripwire Interactive! Doesn't that remind us of a Austrian with a mustache who believed the world is no match for him?
Delusions of grandeur maybe? If you were that awesome and this

 

[Lt.PeterStegman]

Regarding RO:

bout 900~ active playing on Steam right now

Regarding Day of Defeat (not source , the really old one it is):

bout 500~ active Players on Steam right now

i guess thats all the big fans of RO2 that make the mayority in some peoples view eh

Personally i didnt play ROHS since some week and i dont intend to do so until i get to know about some serious changes.Didnt go over to bf either cause i dont like it.
If someone like a bit of WW2 Strategy id tell him to try Panzer Corps .. thats a bit old looking but nice to play.