Rebalancing the new weapons!

[Aze]

A bunch of numberideas and stuff for the new weapons. Now, these suggestions might not be enough to nerf them to some people, but let's start a healthy discussion!
(And just a personal sidenote: I LOVE the new weapons otherwise! They look and "feel" really good, they are just a little overpowered numerically, or even underpowered in case of the nailgun))

-Buzzsaw Bow-
Damage: 400 (down from 500)
Headshotmulti: Stay at 2x
Backstab: Should no longer deal double damage when shot at enemies backs (!) (One of the most overpowered features about it, as it allows you to instakill a 6-man HoE Scrake with a headshot...)
Scrake resistance: Make the Scrake 20% resistant to the Blade (0.8x damage multiplier)
Ammo: Increase to 25 or so.
Weight: 8 (up from 7)
Weaponcost: Possibly reduced a tad? (1500, or 2000, down from 2500?)

Now, what does all this mean?
* Scrakes cannot be stunned by bodyshots, not even at the highest Berserker level! (400 * 2 * 0,8 = 640, lower than the stun treshold)
* Offperk headshots cannot stun a Scrake either! (400 * 2 * 0,8 = 640, same damage there again!)
* Scrakes can only be stunned by Berserker headshots (even at level 0!), and a (6-man HoE) Scrake would require 3 headshots to be killed by a highlevel Berserker
* Can still kill the first (6-man HoE) Siren or Gorefast it hits with a single bodyshot for a level 5/6 Berserker
* No more uberdamage on "backstab"-shots

Compared to the Xbow that would mean
- Higher bodyshot damage but lower headshotdamage than Xbow
- Less amount of ammo than Xbow
- Slightly lighter in weight, but also more expensive than Xbow
- Bouncing blades, rather than "railgun" bolts
- Closerange scope (which i think is awesome btw!), rather than highpowered scope

-Tommygun-
As i think it is a rather bland addition (brings no new feature to the game, other than a rather powerful weightadvantage)
* Increase its weight to 6 (the lower weight is a huge advantage for players with a bit of a brain >_> The lower weight would be a better idea for the BULLPUP of all weapons due to its weakness!)


-Scythe-
* Reduce primary fire damage to 200-ish (down from 260)
* Reduce altfire damage to 320 or max 330 (down from 385) to remove the ability to bodyhit stun Scrakes
* Increase cost to 1500 (up from 1250)
This makes it pretty much a Claymore clone, and that's good, because the DLC was supposed to be cosmetic, wasn't it?


-Trenchgun-
* Remove the 1.5 hidden fire damage code from ALL fire weapons, and just compensate those weapons by increasing their damages respectively, BUT, do not compensate the Trenchgun with this multiplier! It does way too much damage offperk (about the same as a level 6 Support's regular Shotgun, but offperk!)
* Alternatively, instead of keeping its damage (14 pellets x 18 damage), it could be rearranged (9 or 10 pellets x 27 damage), which would more or less net the same instant damage, but would give you a higher burndamage.
* However, make its damage scale with Firebug levels as well, which would compensate (even buff a little for level 6 Firebug) the loss of the 1.5x damagemultiplier
* Other than that, the weapon is fine and my personal favourite new weapon in this update (tied with the Flareguns)!


-Nailgun-
* Reduce the spread significantly (currently at 2500, almost as high as the Hunting Shotgun's 3000! Maybe 1500 is enough, a bit higher than the AA12/CSg/Pump's 1125?)
* Reduce number of nails per shot to 5 (down from 7)(meaning total damage per "shot" is reduced to 175, from 245)
* Increase rate of fire a bit (from 0,5sec/shot to 0,4sec/shot or so)
* Increase magsize to 10 (up from 6)
* Increase total amount of ammo to 70 (up from 48)
* Alternate idea: Instead of bouncing of walls, how about they can weld doors (that are already welded a little, it shouldn't weld on doors with no welding on it already, to prevent abuse and glitches etc)? Bouncing nails too me seems a little odd to be honest, but i guess some people like that, hence just an alternate idea. Maybe, instead of a flashlight as altfire, toggleable nailbehaviour would be cool


Flareguns and MKB42 i think are more or less fine though and don't need a close look at the moment. If anything, reduce impact damage of the Flareguns a little (a bit too strong at higher Firebug levels). Other than that, they seem totally fine

 

[C_Gibby]

Low weight should be the same (5kg) for bullpup AND tommygun.

The Tommy is a cheapo SMG and the only part that makes its weight a problem is that it can be used with a SCAR with another 4 blocks spare. This is a problem with the SCAR, not the Tommy. Both the FAL and SCAR should have their weights increased to 7kg. The AK/M4/MKB can remain at 6kg. The Bullpup, Tommy, and any other weapons that may be added on this tier can stay at 5kg.

This is so you can have SCAR/FAL + AK/M4/AK + MK23/44/Flare as you do. The semi-classic mando loadout right there, that's where the commando's brilliant yet balanced capabilities come to light. But you can't have SCAR + FAL + Tommy/Pup/Pistol. SCAR + FAL is powerful as hell already.

The tommygun does feel like it's a bit too much better than the M4 though, but I think it's the M4 that needs edits. The M4 should have a bit more of a recoil reduction, and maybe have its damage increased by only a tiny bit. I think it should be able to decap gorefasts in one - it's essentially the sniper alternative to the AK, and it doesn't even hold up to the task. Maybe it should have its HS multiplier increased, whilst base damage stays the same.

Also why reduce the damage of the nail gun? I'm struggling to find a use for it as-is, don't nerf it.

The Trenchie is also fine. The flaregun is also fine. Right now, the Firebug is actually capable of killing trash Zed groups without relying on others or spamming his FT.

 

[FDRs Legs]

The ability to one shot crawlers to the body offperk with the Flare Revolver is a bit much IMO.

 

[C_Gibby]

The ability to one shot crawlers to the body offperk with the Flare Revolver is a bit much IMO.

Should be the handcannon's job, tbh. As it stands, there's little reason to want a handcannon. The Mk23 and 44 are both much more versatile.

If the HC could invariably one-shot a crawler in its body on HOE, it'd be doing something that none of the other pistols possibly can. That will justify its 4kg weight, its smaller ammo pool, mag size, and sluggish fire rate. That will make the HC finally desirable.

It'd also see itself working into more loadouts that way. We'd see loadouts like Pup + Tommy + HC. We may also find the demos, zerks, and supports trying to squeeze it in again, exactly how a sidearm should be.

Also there's a bit of debate as to why someone should ever want a .44 when they can afford a Mk23. If the price of the .44 was knocked down to

 

[Aze]

Well, personally i hated the addition of the Tommygun (and the MKB42) as retail weapons, as they are just so bland and adds no new niche or anything which is totally bleh. But yeah, balancing them might need some more thinking and opinions.

The problem in my eyes is that the Tommygun is the lightest Commando weapon (along with SCAR) and can ALSO decap trash offperk in one shot (in contrast to the Bullpup and M4), which is why i think it is a bit too strong as it is at the moment.
And i agreed with both that the M4 is a tad weak (increase headshotmulti to 1.3x and you can decap trash offperk, just like you can with the Tommygun, then it'd be much better) and that the SCAR is too light (6 would be ok, imo, FAL can be 7 due to its superiority).

The Flaregun could as i said have minor impact damage reduction, to not oneshot Crawlers offperk, but it's not as badly "OP" as the other weapons. And yes, increase damage of Handcannon to 122 (up from 115) so it can oneshot HoE Crawlers already >_< (Or give Crawlers a weakness to it, to possibly cause less balance-issues)

I think the Trenchgun per se is not OP, but it's too strong offperk for sure (more or less the same damage as a level 6 Support's pumpshottie AND sets enemies on fire...). With my suggestions it would be just as strong (even a tad stronger at level 6) for the Firebug.

The nailgun's changes is to make it a bit more spammy (more ammo, a bit more accurate, bigger magsize, quite high rate of fire), and not just another "hi i'm just a shotgun with 48 shells as base ammo and 35 damage per pellet and 7 pellets, exactly like the regular shotgun, but have a magazine reload and bouncing pellets". A bit more distinction between the shotguns please. Most of them, numerically, are so boringly similar. They are the opposite of the Commando weapons (Boring numbers, good difference in functions, while Commando weapons have better numbers, but boring difference in functions)
The KSG and CSg have more than just their prices as problems imo, and need more changing than that.

Anyway, we are now discussing too much of the ALREADY implemented weapons, i would prefer if this thread was kept to mainly discussing the new Halloween weapons please ^^

Btw, any opinions on my suggested Sawblade Crossbow numbers?

 

[Shining Wolf]

Nailgun just needs less spread. With its higher ROF, I'd use it over the KSG if it had some range, but Vlad is so ****ty with its current spread. Also, I don't understand why its ammo is more expensive than the other shotguns, save hunting.

 

[DDC1234]

Yeah i think the only that needs to change on the nailgun is the spread lower it and increase the clip size by 2

 

[ChairmanMurder[Forge]]

-Scythe-
* Reduce primary fire damage to 200-ish (down from 260)
* Reduce altfire damage to 320 or max 330 (down from 385) to remove the ability to bodyhit stun Scrakes
* Increase cost to 1500 (up from 1250)
This makes it pretty much a Claymore clone, and that's good, because the DLC was supposed to be cosmetic, wasn't it?

An idea I'm thinking of is increasing the price to the claymore's, keeping damage/multipliers the same, and removing splash damage. Maybe even make the alternate swing slower.

You have a dedicated Scrake-wrecker, but it would still require teamwork or fancy footwork.

 

[Aze]

My personal opinion how i would look at the scythe, would be something like:

Huge range, slow speed, medium damage (slightly lower than Claymore), huge arc damage (no arc-penalty on altfire?). That would make it a real crowdcleanser, while the Claymore would be more of a hardhitter, and a bit less focus on the cleave-effect. That would make the Claymore the upgrade to the Scythe, rather than the other way around

I just can't really grasp how they made a SCYTHE hit HARDER than a frikkin CLAYMORE!

No comment still on my Sawblade Crossbow numbers btw?

 

[Azukki]

The trenchgun having the same damage regardless of firebug level is really weird. It should be weaker offperk.

The flarevolver, I don't know. I'd definitely say it's overpowered if it were hitscan, but that slow projectile may be enough of a drawback for how powerful it is. I'll have to play with it more, but instakill crawlers offperk does seem like too much.

The Thompson has less muzzle rise than the Bullpup, while being much stronger and faster. The recoil needs some increasing.

The MKb is better than the AK in a few ways, but the only con is the gun price. Since 7.92x33 kurz is uncommon, an increase in ammo costs would be a suitable disadvantage to be added for the MKb, I think. Maybe 2 rounds per

 

[poosh]

Buzzsaw
How about leaving the same stats, but remove its melee damage bonus? It doesn't make any sense for me that Berserker has damage bonus for a ranged weapon. How about to make it a pure off-perk weapon? Which can stuns Scrakes, but only with headshots.
Ammo count should be increased (24?) to compensate damage nerf.
Btw, Buzzsaw doesn't deal double damage when hitting zed from the back. I was wrong, sorry. Probably I killed SC with 1 shot from the back because blade penetrated the body and hit the head - dealing 2600 damage in total (it was Suicidal game and not full team).

Scythe
I have a couple variants:
a) Leave Primary attack as it is (super badass), but remove secondary attack. So It won't be able to stun SC, and you'll need to carry Axe, Claymore , or Crossbuzzsaw for that purpose. It is better than Katana, but has double weight - fair trade-off imo.

b) Nerf primary fire a bit (set same DPS as Katana, but with radial attack), remove radial attack from secondary fire (won't be able to stun 2 SC with 1 hit) and lower damage to prevent body-stunning SC.

 

[Aze]

Regarding the Buzzsaw, i think its cool that the Berserker finally got a ranged weapon. Yes, it's ranged, yes it can stun (although, imo only on headshots) like most of the other Berserker weapons, and it has a "melee" feel to it due to shooting a big sawblade. But it also has very little ammo, which makes the Berserker only use it scarcely, which is good.

If anything, it also inspired me to add ANOTHER ranged weapon for the Berserker now: A harpoon gun! It has that melee-ish feel to it as well. Think of the weapon as a cheaper, lighter, weaker, non-penetrating, less spare ammo (aka a lowtier) Buzzsaw Crossbow. That'd make the Berserker further have access to a perked ranged weapon, but it once again would only be used in emergencies.

However, these things considered, i really think the Berserker needs to become a slower moving perk. 15% movespeed at max (down from 30%) sounds more reasonable imo.

 

[Phada]

Buzzsaw Bow & Scythe: Complete Overhaul Required ASAP.

How amateur is releasing such unbalanced weapons, I am kinda shocked...
I know you have to attract ppl to buy better weapons (thanks the dlc system), but this is ridiculous and flagrant how this stuff is way superior.
Talking about "alternative to free weapons" which is clearly wrong, isn't a valid excuse.

This is simply breaking the great game balance installed over years. Why?


=========================================


Back to subject.


Claymore/Scythe Arc Attack code need improvements, we can actually hit a crawler without aiming down or crouching because of that.

Remove the abillity to run fast while holding the Claymore and Scythe. [EDIT: as for the Chainsaw]

Buzzsaw Bow need damage reduction and/or zed resistance to avoid that stupid bodyshot stun on scrake.

Scythe need huge damage reduction and maybe swing speed reduction.


About your buzzsaw's numbers, no more bodystun, seems fine.
But we also must think if this weapon should only be used by a berzerker.
In that case we could even reduce more to make the weapon headshot-stun scrake only with a berzerker lv0 minimum or something like that.
Without zed resistance: damage=400, HS Mult=1.6x, 400*1.6=640, berzerker lv0:400*1.6*1.1=704 (hs stun)

 

[poosh]

@Aze
Your harpoon gun idea inspired on new specimen idea, which could shoot harpoon at player and pull at himself to the zed crowd. This could stop zerkers from running away and pull the glitchers out of the exploitable places.

@Phada
I almost forgot about another important issue - radial attack doesn't attack enemies on the ark, but is implemented like grenade explosion - it hurts every visible enemy in hurt radius, limiting only horizontal angle (yaw). Imagine this as "Explosive Scythe" - every swing causes an explosion, hurting enemies in front of the player.

When I was thinking about making ark attack for my ScrnBalance mutator (I gave up, cause it's too complicated for doing it for free), I was imaging it as "multiple point attacks":
1. Set rotation to the most left point of your attacking ark
2. Trace for the enemy and make damage, if such is found
3. Rotate to the right a bit, and repeat 2-3 steps until most right point of attacking ark is reached.
First, it won't attack enemies below or above your pitch. Second, penetration damage reduction could be implemented.

 

[infntnub]

Remove the abillity to run fast while holding the Claymore and Scythe.

Doesn't this go against basic features of melee weapons in the Killing Floor world?

I mean, I get why you're saying it - they're both large in stature but one of the greatest benefits of a zerker in my opinion has always been the ability to fly all over the map while wielding your primary weapon.

I'd hate to see them make any melee weapon hinder this feature of the perk.

Beyond that I do hope they nerf down the buzzsaw's stun ability, but otherwise I don't think messing with the damage is terribly necessary. Maybe instead make the ammo capacity lower and the cost of the weapon a bit more substantial (please not to the level of the m99).

Maybe ammo capacity of 5? That'll definately add further motivation to quickly recover your sawblades. Either way I'm curious what direction TW takes when tweaking this particular gun.

Scythe I'm not overly impressed with; they could leave it alone and I wouldn't particularly care one way or the other. I'll stick with my katana.

Tommygun and Flaregun are fine "as is" in my opinion. The fact the flaregun makes the magnum irrelevant in some user's eyes is a non point to me since I pretty much felt the magnum was irrelevant even prior to the latest additions to the weapon arsenal.

Just my two cents.

 

[Phada]

@poosh
It's funny the grenade's comparison but this is exactly how it work, it's a just sphere check only cut on the sides.
It should (for the logic sake ) also cut some degree in height for the hit check, under and over the current view's axis.
Or maybe use multiple fast trace if the piercing effect wasn't intended, who know.

@infntnub
The old Chainsaw doesn't have the speed bonus, and it was the best berzerker weapon before that the katana was introduced.
I think that trading the speed feature for the multi hit attack feature, will make ppl do a real choice instead of always using the best/superior weapon.

In the same way, they could also remove the auto-attack from claymore/scythe, like for the katana long time ago (was a bad idea for the super fast swing katana).

 

[C_Gibby]

Thinking about the flare gun, I don't think it's a problem that it performs as well as it does. For firebug, it's pretty fine. It's the sorta thing he needed, really.

Too OP against husks? Eh. I thought that with the FB's resistance to husk shots, he'd be the ultimate husk-slayer. That's something that puts him above what he used to be, the crawler-pincher.

However, the fact that it's off-perk is a problem. I think the base price for the firebug's flaregun should be raised significantly, making it far less likely to be used off-perk as opposed to the other more balanced pistols.

one of the greatest benefits of a zerker in my opinion has always been the ability to fly all over the map while wielding your primary weapon.

This is why the zerker is considered OP or a noob perk. The original zerker was an offensive tanking powerhouse that holds off incoming zeds and helps the team.

The current berzerker is an absolute arsehole that abandons his team and runs around the map like a cheap coward, herding zeds and then killing them one-by-one, making a single game become hours of boredom for the other team members in spectating mode, which he should have been helping out against scrakes.

 

[Aze]

About your buzzsaw's numbers, no more bodystun, seems fine.
But we also must think if this weapon should only be used by a berzerker.
In that case we could even reduce more to make the weapon headshot-stun scrake only with a berzerker lv0 minimum or something like that.
Without zed resistance: damage=400, HS Mult=1.6x, 400*1.6=640, berzerker lv0:400*1.6*1.1=704 (hs stun)

Umm, my numbers already fixed all that (with the 20% resistance on the Scrake for the Sawblade). Read it again, everything. And carefully. I made sure it can't stun offperk, nor ever stun with bodyshots as a Berserker. But Berserker can still stun with it on headshots, from level 0.

Regarding the Flare Revolver, i would give it the same treatment as i have suggested for the other pistols as well: To have dual versions of pistols weigh (more or less) double of their singlewielded weight AND also have (more or less) double ammo-supply!

How that would look, for example:

9mm
Single - 0 weight, 240 ammo
Dual - 2 weight, 360 ammo (just 50% more ammo)

.44 Magnum
Single - 2 weight, 102 ammo
Dual - 4 weight, 204 ammo
Cost: 350-ish each

MK23
Single - 3 weight, 132 ammo
Dual - 6 weight, 264 ammo
Add lasersight, remove penetration
Cost: 450-ish each

Handcannon
Single - 4 weight, 96 ammo
Dual - 6 weight, 144 ammo (50% more ammo and weight instead of 2x)
Cost: 500 each
Make the Crawler weak to the HC, making it an instabodyshotkill on HoE.

Flare Revolver
Single - 2 weight, 60 ammo (which is 96 for a level 6 Firebug)
Dual - 4 weight, 120 ammo (which is 192 for a level 6 Firebug)
That means, while you are able to oneshot the Crawler even offperk with this light pistol, you also have less ammoreserves compared to other pistols. That gives you choice of what pistol fits your needs!
I'd also reduce the Impact damage to 85 and its headshotmultiplier down to 1.3x. That still allows you to oneshot Crawlers offperk (due to the initial fire damage being 37,5. 37,5 + 85 = 122,5 which is half more than a HoE Crawler's health) but it requires a higher level Firebug (3+) to require 3 headshots to kill a Siren/Husk, up from 2 shots. Offperk would require 4 headshots.
And poosh: Doesn't the Impact damage of the Husk Cannon and the Flare Revolvers now scale with Firebug levels (hence the numbers). That means a fully charged shot from the Husk Cannon at level 6 should now deal as much as 1200 damage, no?

 

[masteriamamind]

Trying to balance all the weapons in Killing Floor at THIS point in its life cycle is a waste of time. Too much time and effort. Far too many weapons is the game. Who whats the EXACT same gun with no variation in mechanics?

The last set of "balancing" made the KSG shotgun 8lbs instead of 5. This in turn made the ailing combat shotgun even less attractive. You no longer can use a 3 shotgun set up with the combat shotty being spike damage. A simply price swap would between the two would have been enough. Combat Shotty still ignored and the pump switched our at first opportunity. OVER "BALANCED". It made the m99 weaker (bad) made the cost 250 per shot (too much money, 150 would be acceptable) with the same disadvantages it had before. Over all ammo reduction. Not effective for the money. That's more than pipe bombs. Only a weakened (hs multiplier reduced) 9mm on HOE. M99 no longer viable for survival purposes on higher levels.


These are "little" changes with huge impact on playability. The answer to weapon complaints, with all the additional content coming through, is a more organized and server side controllable trader. Elite players that want challenge can host and disable weapons using the in-game tools. Everyone else can simply enjoy the game.

 

[|WC|Capt.525]

This is why the zerker is considered OP or a noob perk. The original zerker was an offensive tanking powerhouse that holds off incoming zeds and helps the team.

The current berzerker is an absolute arsehole that abandons his team and runs around the map like a cheap coward, herding zeds and then killing them one-by-one, making a single game become hours of boredom for the other team members in spectating mode, which he should have been helping out against scrakes.

Ehh, I play zerker a bit when I find I am too lazy to try and land headshots, or if I find myself on a lousy team. I tend to stick with the team and try to, as stated above, hold of the zeds and take out the scrakes, and where needed, take a hit from a raging FP. Not all zerkers are bad. Quite a few are, but not all