Realism issues. You can't exit a tank?? and many more!

[zeep]

I was reading up on some HOS details, hoping for an ETA. Hadn't followed the news much.

Anyway i found you can't ever exit a tank once you're in it. What? Why?!
Now i couldn't care less because i never play tanker anyway but why shouldn't people be allowed to exit a tank? What do you do when it's immobilized, open the console and type "kill / suicide"?


So in RO2 we still have:

• The infamous suddenly appearing minefield when the enemy captures a zone, right? Doesn't matter if you were sitting right there and saw noone planting the stuff, they're there now.
  
• Rocketspeed climbing/descending staircases (seen in the videos).
  
• Team voice commands playing inside your head wherever you are in the map. Yes, you hear voices.
  
• Sorry chap, you can open the hatch and look around but darn that superglue you spilled earlier, now you can't leave the tank.

What else? More of that big font center screen message "WEAPON SHOT OUT OF HAND". Is that horrible thing still in there?

I'm not saying i know better solutions for everything but surely if you're after realism you can think of prettier ways to deal with the above issues Trips.

 

[Das Bose]

We're just about to be rewarded ( hopefully ) for our patience with an up to date gameplay video so that should answer most of your questions

 

[Frostedfire]

I was reading up on some HOS details, hoping for an ETA. Hadn't followed the news much.

Anyway i found you can't ever exit a tank once you're in it. What? Why?!
Now i couldn't care less because i never play tanker anyway but why shouldn't people be allowed to exit a tank? What do you do when it's immobilized, open the console and type "kill / suicide"?

basically yes. while regrettable that they removed bailing from the tank, the main issues being:
a) people bailing out on the tanking maps and hiding in eg north line in blackdayjuly, where it's VERY hard to find a prone guy in several acres of invincible wheat
b) people bailing out on the maps where tanks would be more useful than an mg
c) AT people complaining that I can bail out of the omnipitent :IS2:, praised be its name, fill them full of 7.62x25 reliably and resume the crusade
we should be able to mod it back in, that's what the tools and good coders/animators are for

So in RO2 we still have:

• The infamous suddenly appearing minefield when the enemy captures a zone, right? Doesn't matter if you were sitting right there and saw noone planting the stuff, they're there now.

hmm, the bc2 method of just blocking spawns in the area could be worked in here, so people left there get the mines once they leave the region. You still have problems where they hold a house, the caps move forward and suddenly they get easy spawnkills tho

What else? More of that big font center screen message "WEAPON SHOT OUT OF HAND". Is that horrible thing still in there?

WEAPON SHOT OUT OF HAND is no longer a problem. it resulted in too many slow kills as people ran back to pick up their gun, instead of looking around in the house and waiting for someone to be shot

 

[Karl Ritter]

I agree with Zeep on this. A shame a bit.
More since I am a realism player and left the panzers
recently majorly due that fact.

Indeed, what if your panzer gets tracked in the middle of nowhere.
Suicide the only option?(Esp. since realism uses one life only)
No more recon on foot from the panzer?

a) people bailing out on the tanking maps and hiding in eg north line in blackdayjuly, where it's VERY hard to find a prone guy in several acres of invincible wheat
b) people bailing out on the maps where tanks would be more useful than an mg
c) AT people complaining that I can bail out of the omnipitent :IS2:, praised be its name, fill them full of 7.62x25 reliably and resume the crusade

A. Now the wheat can be crushed!

B. ...bad team?

C. Panzers had firing holes. Also most tankers caried machinepistols
aboard so they could open the hatch and spray nearby infantry of.
On numerous occasions they even stored crates with grenades aboard
just for that reason.

The main reason I understood for taking it out was that people whined
and got no points when they shot a tank because their foe bailed.
personally Realism dont do scores, but for others its quite simple.
He bailes? fine! Let him rot there in the middle of nowhere and suicide
or run back for over 15-20 minutes back to his spawn. I guess at that
point he would have wished to die in his tank.
And since we work with animations within the tanks as well..make it last a bit to crawl out of it then. That way noone will crawl out while under
direct fire. Not even to mention even if you did manage to bail you
probably would just get machinegunned down(most tankmaps feature
lots of open ground).

hmm, the bc2 method of just blocking spawns in the area could be worked in here, so people left there get the mines once they leave the region. You still have problems where they hold a house, the caps move forward and suddenly they get easy spawnkills tho

Well, maybe that bc2 system may work. It would be a painfull reward
for the few people working together as a team and actually holding firm
in their position.


As said, i do hope modders can fix some of these issues.

 

[u-s-e-r]

Yes, I dont understand if its the issue of people not getting scores from destroying the tank, if the crew escapes, why not just give a score for destroying the tank then? The tank is destroyed and the crew cant do much damage anymore since theyre on foot, why not give score from that?

Anyways if the bailing out of a tank isnt instant press button for cover like in ROOST it would make it harder to just, snap, bail out in an instant etc.

Currently this system just sounds wrong and I think that it will just give more and worse issues than the ones it was developed to fix.

 

[Taisenki]

I like the realism of being able to do "logical" things. Being stuck in a doomed tank sucks. Even if I'm useless outside of it and I only have a pistol or even no weapons at all. I'd still want the option to be able to run out and maybe find a dead soldier to pick a weapon from.

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I would be very happy if this was added in an expansion.

-

Yes, I dont understand if its the issue of people not getting scores from destroying the tank, if the crew escapes, why not just give a score for destroying the tank then? The tank is destroyed and the crew cant do much damage anymore since theyre on foot, why not give score from that?.

It's really bad to base ideas around "scores"...Now people are playing for points instead of playing to see that guy get gibbed and a victory for your team no matter what the cost!

 

[Oldih]

As said, i do hope modders can fix some of these issues.

As much as there's reasons why "cannot bail out" is slightly silly, there's plenty of interesting issues that comes up considering RO2 AFVs do have fully modelled and animated interiors with AI crew (for the most part).

Hypothetical example #1: "solo-tanking" commander exits the tank to scout around. Let's say he gets shot by some guy. What happens to the tank as there is no human players avaible? Does the tank magically explode and destroy itself as it still has 3-4 crewmen left and tnak is still capable of operating without a dedicated commander? It's very unrealistic for a tank to magically poof once the single human player inside is dead ingame, as much as it allows pragmatic benefit to the player.

Hypothetical example #2: Close defence against infantry, presuming you're allowed to shoot with an SMG once you unbutton as the commander or so. In order to shoot in a manner that it actually poses some kind of threat to the enemy rather than firing blindly at the sky to amuse the gods, you basically need to stick your head up and while you do that you need to make sure your SMG doesn't get stuck inside the tank. Even if you're a small person MP40 with folded stock (PPSh is going to be even more interesting case) if you're supposed to do it in a hurry that RIGHT NOW and RIGHT ****ING NOW to shoot that assaulting infantry you need to be drilled pretty well not to fight the fact your magazine got "stock" on few parts. This by its own does not present an issue until you consider how would you model that in the game? Allowing fast unbuttoning and proper freedom to shoot is unrealistic, while "realistic" approach has the danger that it's very difficult to make control-wise without making it more difficult than pulling your own teeth out with a bayonet, which would be odd considering RO has always tried to be smooth and responsive so you don't need 1532 buttons just to use the iron sights on your weapon.

(Handgun would be another story though, it would be nice if the tank crew could use them to shoot when unbuttoned. Grenades could work well as well.)

Hypothetical example #3: Bailing out after getting hit. Now presuming RO2 does model internal damage reasonably well and some other factors, let's say you got ambushed, immobilised and you decide to bail out. Now as a commander it would take a second or two to get out of the tank, but how about the gunner? The driver? The loader? If the enemy keeps up the fire as it may not be obvius to them at range that the tank is out of action or may not have spotted the commander bailing out (let's say there's obstructed LoS), they probably keep firing until it doesn't respond for a while or it's on fire. Now let's say we have human crewed regarding gunner, commander and driver. The commander is out, the gunner is most likely going to die from the next penetration and the driver may also get out from another hatch. While the tank is effectively out of action and destroyed by ingame after a while, the two remaining human crewmen who escaped are basically out in the open while the gunner is waiting for them to die so they can respawn inside the tank again. As immersive as it can be trying to get back on friendly lines in such situation for the sake of realism, this presents gameplay related problems as let's say there's only one per side in the map. The enemy tank KO'd you, two of the crewmen are basically running around like lunatics and the third one is waiting for them to die.

As much as I'd like to see the ability to dismount and scout ahead it still has the problem that what would happen if the dismounted player dies in a solo tank? Logical conclusion would be that the tank dies with it, but it's unrealistic for few reasons. What about multi-crewed tank? One player dies the another one takes control (as much as possible), the dead crewman magically respawning in the tank is also unrealistic and gameplay-wise it's pretty odd for one person to keep waiting for several minutes until the tank is effectively KO'd so he can get into the tank again. After all keeping in mind there's no "race to the tank!" sequences in spawn in RO2, and as much as competitive community and realism community can add mutators or such to modify their needs in their corresponding matches standard public play will undoubtedly be diffrent for several reasons, something which most of the examples are based on as scenarios.

I wouldn't be too surprised if they added exit animations and dismount features later in the patch or in an expansion given they can figure out practical issues that comes up within the game itself with the new tank model vs bailing out.

 

[Alexei]

I like the realism of being able to do "logical" things. Being stuck in a doomed tank sucks. Even if I'm useless outside of it and I only have a pistol or even no weapons at all. I'd still want the option to be able to run out and maybe find a dead soldier to pick a weapon from.

Scuttle your tank, get a new one. Solved.

 

[Floyd]

Bailing has been discussed ad nauseum, has it not?
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=47203
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=47195
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=45521
to name a few

Rehash necessary?

 

[Nezzer]

The problem is that tankers that bail out from their tanks don't try to return to the main base since it's usually too far, so they start playing as regular infantry and can sometimes stay alive for minutes, leaving an idle tank at the respawn while it could be supporting the rest of the team. I still would like to be able to exit the tank, but I understand and I agree with their reasons. We'll see when beta is released

 

[AgresywnySpawacz]

Biggest realism issue - it's just a game

 

[jinnwarior]

weapon shot out of hand was removed.
simple solution: mod both back in!

 

[Crusher]

weapon shot out of hand was removed.
simple solution: mod both back in!

Why was it removed? People in WWII were never shot in their hand or weapon? I wasn't bothered by that feature, it caused for some nerve wrecking situations.

 

[The Masta]

Biggest realism issue - it's just a game

Won't be real without a bloody screen.

 

[Krator]

By the way, if commander exits the tank and dies, the player takes control of some other crew member. But now it takes much more time to use the commander cupola to look around and locate targets.
It's really THAT simple. Meanwhile tank just stays there maybe bots shoot at some target unaccurately and only if it is in the frontal 40 degrees area, maybe they just stay idle. So basically - you get out of tank, you can shoot a bit etc., but leave your tank inoperative. Seems like a fair deal to me.
I don't think there's a problem if some player is less helpful for team. Bailing out is only a problem if it gives the tanker's team some strange advantage - like in RO when you just could catapult out of tank to spam PPSHz at AT guys and jump back in, which was one of the worst things featured in game.

 

[timur]

sometimes you just have to not be 100% super-realistic in order to make it fun. Just like you don't have to walk 10 miles to enter the battlefeild, or you don't have a high chance of immediatley dieing of cold or disease. In order to see the game released and at it's most enjoyable, TWI made some decisions to make small realism cuts.

However, I do agree that getting out of a tank would be nice, IF it was an immediate teleport like in Ost. I have had too many deaths as an engineer due to the fact that tankers find it faster to teleport on top of me and machine gun me and tele back in to continue tanking. I mean, I can slip up close to a tank or I can be in firefight positioning, not both. But having a delay would solve most of the problems which are caused by bails, which almost always are caused by the fact that you instantly teleport out.

 

[Welshie]

The things I can think of for bailing is
1) if You bail and die as the commander, then the tank stays inopperative until that persons respwns back into that tank (Not given a new one back at spawn)
2) No kill count to the bailed Commander (So even if He/She does get kills on Foot, the KDR is not effected)
3) if the tank is destroyed while Commander is out, either running around or waiting to respawn, then He/She gets Negative XP and maybe a longer respawn time.
Some suggestions, but I would say that TWI have locked this feature in at this stage of development

 

[Roflrocket]

i think it should have it so you have to stay in a tank until it's immoblilized or something, then you can bail out. then you won't have people going tank commander to get an smg on urban tank maps. too late to add bailing tho so stop *****ing there not changing it, im sick of these threads.

 

[Extension7]

Most of those things are sacrifices to make the game better. Those things are there to remind you that it's still a game, not real life. ROHOS was meant to be realistic and immersive to the point where it doesn't break the gameplay.

All in all, it's still just a game, just... A better one.

That staircase thing may be fixed though??