Radar on RO HOS - Big Error of Tripware

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Fedorov

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 8, 2005
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Until the Holodeck is invented videogames can't be really realistic

But TWI is making everything they can within the current technology, so it feels as realistic as possible.

and no, having less and less information on your surroundings is not realistic. the way that it'll make you behave in battle is completely different.

I think overall perception, feel and behaviour (friendly and enemy) > having zero interface
 

Devil_Inside

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 7, 2007
690
122
0
Moldova
and no, having less and less information on your surroundings is not realistic. the way that it'll make you behave in battle is completely different.

I think overall perception, feel and behaviour (friendly and enemy) > having zero interface

Exactly! If we take COD and BF:BC2 for example - removing everything (EVERYTHING!!!) from the HUD is not how you make the game realistic. Yes, in RL you don't have a floating icons in your eyes, but in RL you know how many nades you have, you know how many mags you have, you know how to call the artillery and if artillery is available, etc. You know quite a lot of things. So the argument of floating icons in RL is irrelevant.
Removing everything doesn't make it realistic, it makes it unrealistic and unplayable.
 
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Mormegil

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
4,178
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Nargothrond
Again, in the real world, you can glance around you as you move, checking where people are. You can't do that easily in game and keep running across a road. Your direction of movement in game follows where you are looking, so you can't really glance round as you run, without running into things a lot :)

Which is why I hope Ramm's experiments with TrackIR pan out.

Thanks for re-clarifying it...again.
 

Celonius

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 25, 2010
40
16
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I'm sure we've said it all before, but...

The aim with all these things we are trying out is to feed the player he would have in the real world - no more, no less.

For example, in Ostfront, you have a field of vision restricted to about 90 degrees. In the real world (yes, we did the reading and tested it out) you have very detailed vision in a small central core area, good vision out to about 90 degrees (color detection tails off) and peripheral vision to about 180-190 degrees (very limited color vision). That peripheral vision will detect motion well, but you'll struggle to say what it is...

When someone gets shot, you pretty much know where the bullet hit you, without having to check a little icon. A bullet whipping by very close will usually give you an impression of which direction it came from. It isn't going to pinpoint some bastard with a sniper rifle - but you WILL know it came from left/right/roughly.

When you are moving with a group of people, you have a pretty good idea where they are from the combination of sight (you seeing them) and sound (hearing them, them talking etc). When one of your mates jumps through a doorway, he doesn't immediately vanish from your perception!

Again, in the real world, you can glance around you as you move, checking where people are. You can't do that easily in game and keep running across a road. Your direction of movement in game follows where you are looking, so you can't really glance round as you run, without running into things a lot :)

So - the key aim in the game is to ensure the player gets some approximation (closer than in the original RO) to the information he gets in the real world. It is about using smart UI in game to make the game MORE realistic, not less!

I'm not agree with that. In WW2 you know the enemy's position if you see it, if you heard some shoot of his weapon o his movement, or if some squad company indicate you, you don't have a a radar that shows where you are your colleagues and where there may be hostile activity, although its position is not accurate, that I had to know thou for intelligence reports, for your squad mates or by yourself.

I think all these are justifiable to implement your arcade elements and attract players of COD MW2 as I read in an interview.

Anyway, I hope that the servers have the option to disable this and only the map and in the RO1 and as in real life. And so the same on online campaign.

For everything else, $$$$$$$$>>>> Realism
 
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Mormegil

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
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Nargothrond
I'm not agree with that. In WW2 you know the enemy's position if you see it, if you heard some shoot of his weapon o his movement, or if some squad company indicate you, you don't have a a radar that shows where you are your colleagues and where there may be hostile activity, although its position is not accurate, that I had to know thou for intelligence reports, for your squad mates or by yourself.

I think all these are justifiable to implement your arcade elements and attract players of COD MW2 as I read in an interview.

Anyway, I hope that the servers have the option to disable this and only the map and in the RO1 and as in real life. And so the same on online campaign.

For everything else, $$$$$$$$>>>> Realism

Well in real life, a soldier would hopefully have more training than most gamers in squad tactics. And a video game as seen in a monitor (even with surround sound) doesn't give you the same peripheral situational awareness a real soldier would have. So I think these are fine to get players to act more like real soldiers.
 

Celonius

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 25, 2010
40
16
0
Yeah, but you don't have a little map with indications of your squad positions!
I don't know why they put this radar, they will get the same configuration thaht RO1.
 

Mormegil

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
4,178
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Nargothrond
Yeah, but you don't have a little map with indications of your squad positions!
I don't know why they put this radar, they will get the same configuration thaht RO1.

Yeah, but you also don't go into war with no peripheral vision or directional hearing.

There needs to be a system to give you back these tools for situational awareness.
 

Kashash

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 27, 2008
503
637
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Yeah, but you don't have a little map with indications of your squad positions!
I don't know why they put this radar, they will get the same configuration thaht RO1.

I'm a big realism fan and I'm for the radar, there just isn't other way to simulate those elements mentioned above that are in real life. Maybe after 50 years gaming will improve to the level where such a things won't be needed as we'll literally feel everything around us or something.
 

Celonius

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 25, 2010
40
16
0
Yeah, but you also don't go into war with no peripheral vision or directional hearing.

There needs to be a system to give you back these tools for situational awareness.


Is not the same like a radar, sorry. TWI can put directional sounds and purchase the vision, but not a radar, sorry but everybody who plays RO1 like that it don't have a radar, only a map.
 

Zetsumei

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
12,459
1,433
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32
Falmouth UK
I'm sure we've said it all before, but...

The issue for me with a lot of features like that is that it often (not always) takes an individuals control out of the hands of players.

Not everybody hears the same not everybody sees the same, not everybody is able to recognize friendlies the same, and variation in abilities in a game based on actual individual skill makes things interesting for me.

Like how a blind person gets better at hearing and feeling, a player missing some of the cues present in real life will utilize the cues that he got to get an understanding of his surrounding and adapt.

One of the things I've loved of RO, is the ability to truly have things into your own hand. Bullets don't just randomly fly somewhere when hip shooting if you practise you can know where to aim to hit. And when sighted in the end you will know where a bullet will impact the moment you fired it.

Some features in the past that were there to aid awareness/teamwork seen in real life left a sour taste in my mouth. Like the icons on the map flashing when an enemy is capping something or showing that there are enemies in the cap zone. Those notifications took away the actual need for real teamwork or personal awareness about finding out about enemy presence. And often those system report that an enemy is capping something or in the cap zone without anyone actually knowing it yet.

It goes as far as to the point that people start depending nearly solely on the automatic input based on enemy activity, and pretty much stops communicating or watching out for things themselves. And that is one of my fears.

Systems are never perfect, in some cases it might detect someone that should have remained undetected (like in games often the case when someone is behind vegetation, or well blended in the background).

And that is my general fear with systems that aim to aid players with giving them additional senses, or encouraging players what to do. It encourages players to play according to a system. And once people know the system they will exploit it.

Another example would be the point system. It is utilized to encourage teamwork. But in maps people care so much about capping that they completely don't bother to defend something after it has been captured and just push straight on to the next zone. Resulting that in public games maps with multiple cap zones end with players running around in circles while capping (Koitos syndrome). And people going as far as trying to resupply me as MG with groups of 5 players covering dangerous grounds while I'm already filled up.

Points are used as a tie brake as well, meaning it says that a team that captures a point with 1 man while the rest defends the entrance and surroundings from tactical key points, is worse than an entire team that bunches up at a single square room of the cap zone.

I want everything to be as easy as possible and as easy as in real life just like everybody else, but I want the game to remain to be about teamwork, tactics, cooperation, individual awareness and communication. Systems intended to make things easier or make teamwork better can actually make things harder under circumstances.

Systems helping team work can actually do the opposite when you get a fully coordinated team together (like with clan matches, realism unit games or iron crescendo tournaments). Like for instance Koitos in competitive matches is a pretty popular map due to the tactical freedom of having 4 cap zones open at the same time. While its unplayable in public.

Like if you empty a pistol in KF you automatically reload, which is nice and easier as people do not have to find the reload button any more. However if you'd want to change the weapon when its empty with a different full weapon you are out of luck because you automatically gave the reload command, and will need to wait for the weapon to reload first.

Or walking over a pistol in KF will automatically pick it up, but single pistols handle differently from dual pistols. Making it that if you want only a single pistol that you picked up something automatically you didn't want to pick up. Similar things happens in RO where you often automatically loose your primary weapon when trying to pick up some grenades.

Things are always a trade off, for everything that is good there is a negative side effect as well. And for different people and communities the optimal balance lies at different locations.

----------

All in all I don't know how everything will pack out. I just hope that twi considers possible negative effects and the different tastes among the communities. Anyway keep up the good work :D
 
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Fedorov

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 8, 2005
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Not everybody hears the same not everybody sees the same, not everybody is able to recognize friendlies the same, and not everybody.

By making all unaware of their surrounding the same way will make them different? or even more equal?

think about it this way: not everybody will interpret the awareness indicator the same way. so the issue is self-fixed.

Of course if there is a friendly behind a wall that you can hear but cant see, his dot should appear in white as you can't really tell if its friend of foe. (and only if he is moving or shooting, if he is quiet he shouldn't appear at all)

Other things... if you have a nearby enemy using a gun from your team, shouldn't it be perceived as an ally just by the sound? Perception sometimes deceives one. and it would be realistic that way.
 

Zetsumei

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
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Falmouth UK
By making all unaware of their surrounding the same way will make them different? or even more equal?

think about it this way: not everybody will interpret the awareness indicator the same way. so the issue is self-fixed.

Of course if there is a friendly behind a wall that you can hear but cant see, his dot should appear in white as you can't really tell if its friend of foe. (and only if he is moving or shooting, if he is quiet he shouldn't appear at all).

Other things... if you have a nearby enemy using a gun from your team, shouldn't it be perceived as an ally just by the sound? Perception sometimes deceives one. and it would be realistic that way.

What i'm talking about is rather that people at times start relying on the awareness indicators more than utilizing their actual eyes. Similar to how people look at the enemy presence bar to see if there are enemies in the zone.

When there is a dot on the screen there is an enemy or friendly within your fov in that direction, there probably isn't a lot of different interpretations with that part.

Sure someone might decide to not pay notice to it similarly to how someone might decide to not look at the cap bar for enemy presence.
 
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Fedorov

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 8, 2005
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What i'm talking about is rather that people at times start relying on the awareness indicator more than utilizing their actual eyes. Similar to how people look at the enemy presence bar to see if there are enemies in the zone.

When there is a dot on the screen there is an enemy or friendly within your fov in that direction, there probably isn't a lot of different interpretations with that part.

Sure someone might decide to not pay notice to it similarly to how someone might decide to not look at the cap bar for enemy presence.

That awareness indicator has quite a small radius for what I've seen, much smaller than the range for most firefights, so I don't think there is much way of exploiting it, and the enemies appearing there are only the ones you actually see with your eyes.

If this game is gonna have advanced squad command system, the indicator is needed, else you would go crazy trying to know who hears your orders and who is doing what they are supposed to.

If there is that separate indicator in the edges of the screen for peripheral vision at longer ranges, It shouldn't be used to pinpoint enemies. IMO they should only indicate that "something" is moving around there. As you would in RL if you had a full panoramic view of an area. Now if you want to know whats there exactly, you would have to look at it anyway to make sure.



About the cap bar... well I think the whole capping system should be redone.

And I dislike the capping bar showing information that the soldier wouldn't perceive in RL, as it is the current RO. (Yet people are not making such a big deal about it, I don't see "RO:OST = COD because there is a capbar, Oh NOEEESS!!!11!! you greedy devs" threads)
 

Flogger23m

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 5, 2009
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Have you actually read about it, how it will operate etc or do you think it will be something like in COD... because from all I have read it will not be.


Doesn't matter if it doesn't work like CoD's radar, its still a terrible idea.
 

Dwin

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 10, 2007
520
247
0
The problem is that in real life, you may not always notice something in your peripheral vision, due to a variety of factors, e.g., if someone is well camouflaged or partially hidden behind some object.

With an artificial like the one proposed for RO:HoS, the game has to decide whether or not you perceive something in your peripheral vision or not, regardless of these factors. It becomes a problem when the game's expectation of what you should perceive is different than real life, which can result in the game giving you information you shouldn't have.

Sometimes, you might not notice something in your periphery. If the game tells you something is there when in real life you would not notice, then it is not realistic. Now, will this peripheral vision system give varying intensity of notifications based on various physical and psychological conditions? If so, that would be a lot more realistic, but such a feature would be so complex, I doubt it would be implemented.

I would say that I have confidence that TWI will implement this feature well, but then I think about what a terrible feature the capzone indicator is (the part that tells you the relative balance of forces in a capzone) and I'm not so sure anymore.
 
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