Questionable features

[FishsticksII]

It very much does from my experience. Like it or hate it, it adds to the difficulty in my opinion. It makes clots an even greater threat when trying to deal with a situatiolet me shoot that charging FP ...and clot grab.

But as a I said, well be looking at player feedback as they play the game and refining the kf2 experience.

If there is a large complaint once public testing starts you guys could always just make the grab and the enemy spawn announcements a server side variable. The more server side options the better for a tailor fit experience.

 

[Savage Rodent]

Not EVERY feature implemented is meant for balancing and skill-management. Some of them are just outright cool. And I think the roar is one of the best features in the game.

Features may not have the intent of affecting gameplay, but unfortunately they can. I'll admit that the roars are pretty cool, and honestly I don't mind it, but I feel it should be taken into consideration that it can make the game easier.

If their goal is to make the game more difficult, which I'm assuming is what they want to do if this whole auto-turn grab mechanic is meant to increase difficulty, then the more recognizable roars would be an unintentional step backwards to their goal.

If that isn't their goal, well then what is the reason for this auto-turn around mechanic? That's what I want to know.

 

[silverlighted]

Regarding the clot grab, I've gone back and forth, but I think I've decided that it's reasonable difficulty.

It's just a gut reaction to find it annoying as it ruins the flow that we are used to (where it's just temporary damage over time that we might choose to accept in order to keep shooting what we're shooting at).

But now, the fact that the camera will switch immediately to the clot, it's not necessarily a noobcrutch, or artificial difficulty. It's making clots a threat on their own, that you don't want to get too close to. Kinda like how you don't want to get closed to Bloats, or they'll vomit on you and put green **** all over your screen. Or the screen flashing red when you're almost dying.

 

[silverlighted]

Features may not have the intent of affecting gameplay, but unfortunately they can. I'll admit that the roars are pretty cool, and honestly I don't mind it, but I feel it should be taken into consideration that it can make the game easier.

If their goal is to make the game more difficult, which I'm assuming is what they want to do if this whole auto-turn grab mechanic is meant to increase difficulty, then the more recognizable roars would be an unintentional step backwards to their goal.

If that isn't their goal, well then what is the reason for this auto-turn around mechanic? That's what I want to know.

lol are you suggesting that EVERY single change to the gameplay as it applies to difficulty...can only go one way or the other? Certainly the gameplay in KF1 is complex enough where there can be all sorts of unrelated adjustments. Let's assume that the roar was meant to decrease difficulty (I don't believe that it is, but let's assume that).

It doesn't mean it's irrational for the devs to be like, okay we've made things easier re: fps and scrs. But let's buff up the clots a bit. They're a bunch of chumps right now. Let's make it so when they grab you, you really feel like they're grabbing you.... now players will be a little bit more afraid of them.

 

[Sledginius]

Taking the control away from the player is pretty terrible. What makes KF1 so appealing is the fact that there is non of that in it. Your guns are always shooting center, even if you are mid-air, turning quickly, have puke on your face or are on fire. Your guy would still be 100% accurate.

The rest was completely in the hands of the player. That

 

[Savage Rodent]

lol are you suggesting that EVERY single change to the gameplay as it applies to difficulty...can only go one way or the other? Certainly the gameplay in KF1 is complex enough where there can be all sorts of unrelated adjustments. Let's assume that the roar was meant to decrease difficulty (I don't believe that it is, but let's assume that).

It doesn't mean it's irrational for the devs to be like, okay we've made things easier re: fps and scrs. But let's buff up the clots a bit. They're a bunch of chumps right now. Let's make it so when they grab you, you really feel like they're grabbing you.... now players will be a little bit more afraid of them.

That is not what I'm saying. Changes like sound or visual cues can inadvertently affect gameplay or difficulty.
Example: The new animations for the zeds I'm sure could make getting a headshot a little more difficult since their hitbox will probably be moving around a lot more than they were in KF1. That may not have been their intention, but it is a result of added and more lively animations.

And I guess it isn't completely out of the question to buff clots in response to the nerf-of-approach with fps and scrs. But it's stuff like the fps/scrs roars that have to be observed to see whether it can affect the difficulty or gameplay.

I'm still interested in knowing what the difference between the cysts, slashers, and clots are though.

 

[PlatinumRooster]

Features may not have the intent of affecting gameplay, but unfortunately they can. I'll admit that the roars are pretty cool, and honestly I don't mind it, but I feel it should be taken into consideration that it can make the game easier.

If their goal is to make the game more difficult, which I'm assuming is what they want to do if this whole auto-turn grab mechanic is meant to increase difficulty, then the more recognizable roars would be an unintentional step backwards to their goal.

If that isn't their goal, well then what is the reason for this auto-turn around mechanic? That's what I want to know.

Well I don't know about you, but even knowing of an FP's presence ahead of time hasn't helped me and my teams in the past in KF. It was never a matter of knowing the FP was there. It was a matter of gathering everyone together to focus it.

I can't see the roar aiding in any way. Everyone know's to expect them regardless. So at that, it's just an aesthetic additive. And a welcomed one at that. It's sets them apart thematically even MORE from the rest of the zeds.

 

[PlatinumRooster]

That is not what I'm saying. Changes like sound or visual cues can inadvertently affect gameplay or difficulty.
Example: The new animations for the zeds I'm sure could make getting a headshot a little more difficult since their hitbox will probably be moving around a lot more than they were in KF1. That may not have been their intention, but it is a result of added and more lively animations.

And I guess it isn't completely out of the question to buff clots in response to the nerf-of-approach with fps and scrs. But it's stuff like the fps/scrs roars that have to be observed to see whether it can affect the difficulty or gameplay.

I'm still interested in knowing what the difference between the cysts, slashers, and clots are though.

You have to stop comparing it to KF in hopes of a 1:1 difficulty curve. That's step number 1. Step number 2 is realizing that a lot of KF's original difficulty came from the math. If you didn't know the math, ESPECIALLY in HoE, you could screw over your own team.

But I doubt it was EVER TWI's intention for players to find little gimmicks though they've certainly embraced it as they are very tolerant developers.

You have to look at checks and balances. If you WANT to pull the difficulty argument with the roar; I'll play ball.

Perhaps the roar is there as a bandaid to the common issue of people without mics or not memorizing hotkeys to let teammates know about FP's. Perhaps the roar is there to alert folks considering that it's much harder to bunker up with doors only lasting ONCE in an entire game. Perhaps it's there to offset the fact that recoil is much less unforgiving now.

I can make JUST as many thematic arguments about the roar as you folks could make about it being a difficulty damper.

The WHOLE FREAKING POINT is that it's NEW, it's AMAZING, it's VERY WELL DONE, and it's FOR US. It's to make the game COOLER. A single roar WILL NOT make the game astronomically easier if at all.

Besides, there are other variables no one is considering because everyone is so quick to judge a bloody EA build. What if two FP's spawn at the same time? Perhaps you'll hear only one roar. The audio track might be single layered and you wouldn't be able to tell. What if it ISN'T for every FP? What if it's just for the first one as a mood setter letting you know ****'s about to get real?

So many factors that no one considers but everyone is so quick to jump it's nuts and bury with judgement before actually experiencing it.

I don't know about you, but I'll be enjoying those roars on my Astro A40's on virtual 7.1.

 

[Oy The Destroyer]

I liked the way Dying Light incorporated the Zombie Grab mechanic. Once you get close enough, the zombie reaches out and makes a small lunge for you. You can run by easily, and as you brush up against him and he grabs, your visions shifts around slightly, you slow down a tiny bit, and you can hear the rasp of fabric as he tries to catch your shirt. If you hang around at this distance a little too long, he snags you. That's when it turns you to face him and throw him off, but you have that small threshold where just his fingertips are brushing you and you can still get away, with only the slightest bit of screen manipulation. I think this would work great in KF, just slightly "feeling" them grab for you, and if you stick around and get caught, your screen shouldn't whip around to face him. Instead it should kind of tilt in the direction of the grabber, to let you know you're snagged, then kind of tug back and forth away from the zed while you still have control over aim, to represent your guy struggling both to resist moving and to turn his torso to face the attacker. This also means no kf1 style "just barely in range by 1 inch and get snagged" clot behaviour.

 

[Savage Rodent]

You have to stop comparing it to KF in hopes of a 1:1 difficulty curve. That's step number 1. Step number 2 is realizing that a lot of KF's original difficulty came from the math. If you didn't know the math, ESPECIALLY in HoE, you could screw over your own team.

But I doubt it was EVER TWI's intention for players to find little gimmicks though they've certainly embraced it as they are very tolerant developers.

You have to look at checks and balances. If you WANT to pull the difficulty argument with the roar; I'll play ball.

Perhaps the roar is there as a bandaid to the common issue of people without mics or not memorizing hotkeys to let teammates know about FP's. Perhaps the roar is there to alert folks considering that it's much harder to bunker up with doors only lasting ONCE in an entire game. Perhaps it's there to offset the fact that recoil is much less unforgiving now.

I can make JUST as many thematic arguments about the roar as you folks could make about it being a difficulty damper.

The WHOLE FREAKING POINT is that it's NEW, it's AMAZING, it's VERY WELL DONE, and it's FOR US. It's to make the game COOLER. A single roar WILL NOT make the game astronomically easier if at all.

Besides, there are other variables no one is considering because everyone is so quick to judge a bloody EA build. What if two FP's spawn at the same time? Perhaps you'll hear only one roar. The audio track might be single layered and you wouldn't be able to tell. What if it ISN'T for every FP? What if it's just for the first one as a mood setter letting you know ****'s about to get real?

So many factors that no one considers but everyone is so quick to jump it's nuts and bury with judgement before actually experiencing it.

I don't know about you, but I'll be enjoying those roars on my Astro A40's on virtual 7.1.

I'm not hoping for a 1:1 difficulty curve. If anything I would like it to be more difficult. However, using KF as a reference and comparison can be beneficial. I mean, how else can you think of improvements without comparing it to its predecessor?

I'm not for crutches for players who fall victim to common issues. They should want to overcome those mistakes to become a better player.

Indeed, there are a lot of stuff to take into consideration with the roars, mainly with what you said. And again, I personally have no problems with the roars, but it should be taken into consideration that it can affect the difficulty of the game.

If difficulty is something that shouldn't get any attention, then the experience is the most important thing and I have nothing more to say.

 

[Jovial]

I have low hopes, I think it takes too much control away from the player, and their decision-making.

In KF1 when you get grabbed and immobilised, you could make decisions. You could continue shooting and try to get that one headshot off at a Scrake as you're getting eaten to death before switching to knife/pistol, or try to throw/fire a grenade in a particular direction just as you're about to die, or even turning to throw your weapon/money to an under-armed player as a parting gift.

The auto-turn seems to take that decision-making away. I think if the Cyst's grab is to be more effective (especially on higher difficulties) the grab itself should simply make the player's actions harder as opposed to diverting them totally.
Aside from immobilizing the player it could distort his vision a little, and introduce weapon sway, each new effect being added on (or intensified) for each difficulty level.

Games are about choices, so in my opinion the player's actions should be increasingly harder to perform instead of being bottlenecked. Removing the player's control does make the game harder, but in a very artificial, intrusive way.

If part of the reason for auto-turn is to help less experienced players realise why they're immobilised and losing health, it should be disable-able(?) or be replaced with some kind of visual indicator.

Very well put.

About fleshpound roar, most of what the roar does is give that "oh ****" effect. Besides, what do any of us even know of late wave HoE yet? Judging from what we've seen it could be much more frantic and fast paced than KF1, and having an extra audio cue for fleshpounds would be acceptable in that case.

If not, we can still riot on the forums over all of this once EA is here.

 

[Yoshiro]

Instead of rioting, good feedback and proposed alternatives will get a much better reaction.

 

[C_Gibby]

Very well put.

About fleshpound roar, most of what the roar does is give that "oh ****" effect. Besides, what do any of us even know of late wave HoE yet? Judging from what we've seen it could be much more frantic and fast paced than KF1, and having an extra audio cue for fleshpounds would be acceptable in that case.

If not, we can still riot on the forums over all of this once EA is here.

Thanks! I have no strong opinion on the FP roar though. But part of me thinks that not noticing the FP until you see it emerge from down the hallway was great for the challenge because there was no fair warning and your preparation time is constrained as a result. But the new KF2 seems so much more faster-moving so it may be better suited.

Instead of rioting, good feedback and proposed alternatives will get a much better reaction.

Well how are we doing so far?

 

[Player 1 + Player 2]

Instead of rioting, good feedback and proposed alternatives will get a much better reaction.

Fine, why am I force to look at a weak clot/alternates (if the clot relatives does grab you) when I need to target a higher priority target before it hits me then the clot finish me off.

Why does the Flesh Pound scream for? Is it to make the team "here comes the flesh pound, find a 1 way entrance/exit and put a few pipe bombs/pipe bombs equivalent in the way"?

 

[nejcooo]

There's no way to give real feedback until you see how it feels while playing. For now we can only guess. I guess it's good, and it's gonna drive me crazy when 180 will kill me

 

[Deli]

Well here is my feedback on the roar and clot grasp.



About FP's roar: I understand that a roar that informs you about a FP's spawn will give more awareness about it. Though I do not find this as a gamebreaker or a huge aid to players. You still don't know when "exactly" he is going to arrive or where he will come from. It will just narrow the time gap you literally wait for him(I'm not talking about expecting,you already expect him to come in a later wave) from a wave to a few minutes. If you think you will find your friends after he spawned, in the middle of the wave with 70 more zeds around you, you are already wrong. The roar is only a reminder he is dangerous and you should be afraid of him now, not the whole wave camping for him with your pipe bombs. Also it could actually balance the game because weaker zeds are stronger this time around. Give you more time to focus on them instead of waiting for FP in fear. Can't tell without playing the game.



About the clot grab:The clot grab is considered more as a console thing not because it makes the game easier or more difficult but because game itself tells you who to shoot. It makes it a game mechanic.Let me explain.



Assume you only have a keyboard and a key binded to fire your gun on your keyboard. There are no other keys binded and you don't have a mouse to control your camera. You're in the game and there is only one Clot coming for you. Clot comes and grabs you, turns you around. You press your only key to shoot him and he dies. You may have taken damage, but you didn't make any effort.

For another example, you're running away from a Scrake. This time you have full control of your character. There is a Clot that you didn't realise he was there. He grabs you and turns you around. You now know that he is there. You shoot him and leave. If he just held you (like in the first game), in the time you wasted to realize that you're grabbed and turn around, the Scrake could catch you.


Also there could be scenarios where this mechanic could screw you over. Imagine you have 2 gorefasts coming at you, you are preparing to shoot them. Suddenly a Clot comes behind you and turns you around. You couldn't shoot the gorefasts and died as a result.

Another annoying thing would be Clots turning you around in a row, as you kill the one who is grabbing you.Taking away your chance of survival by using a grenade or a simple spray of bullets.



My point: This mechanic as well as being dangerous for players, it could be used as another reason to ignore clots. It might make people not to look at them as they are roaming, because they will turn the camera to themselves for you to shoot them anyway. It is not about difficulty, It is about the game taking control. You can see this as a help or as a punishment. You could use it as a good or bad thing. It is about making this a game mechanic.

Now i want you to think of Bloat or Siren, they blur your camera, which is bad for you. Think of Husk, burning ,making it harder to see, and deafening you which is also bad. But why does a clot turn you to himself for you to shoot him? Why not turn you to the other way so there is no way you could shoot him, and that he would kill you. Why doesn't he do that instead, if he can turn you. Why is he doing an arguably good thing? Back in KF1, what he did was immobilising you which did not have any good side.



In Short: I think that clot grab is something that could help or kill you in different scenarios. In either way, you will shoot the clot who grabbed you, even if it disorients you or not. In the end, the game told you who to shoot and you shot him. This is what makes this look as a console feature.

Whatever.Of course these scenarios are only in my head, It could turn out to be better as i play the game or changed later. But this thread is called Questionable features and what i am doing is just questioning them. Someone who played could come up and say "No, that is not how it feels at all!" or "Clot doesn't work like that at all!" or " You must play first to understand" and I would be like "Cool, sure I will try in the Early Access which TWI will announce soon!!!1!1". I just feel like taking away moving and aiming at the same time in a game about running and gunning is too much. Shooting is what you are only left to do at that point.

I hope i explained myself well.

PS: I assumed that when a clot holds you, your camera gets locked on him. Whether it does or not my point stands.

 

[moleculo]

Instead of rioting, good feedback and proposed alternatives will get a much better reaction.

About that, how are you going to handle feedback on the EA? What are the official channels? If it's going to be the forums mostly there could be a standardized format for feedback (every feedback thread should contain improvement suggestions and a poll at least). I'm thinking a feedback button in-game would be a good idea too, wider audience and more direct feedback but of course harder to sift through. It would be a good idea to make use of gameplay stats too, they're usually a good indicator of balance issues.

 

[EdWeTodd]

I agree with Yoshiro. Its not polite to piss off the guys making the game you're so eagerly waiting for -.-
Anyway, with the Fleshpound and Scrake callouts, the scrake had a pretty loud chainsaw rev that can be heard from pretty far away, so I'm not opposed to it. Helped me strategize.
The auto turn thing may get annoying, but like Yoshiro said as well, it's just an opinion. Definitely adds more panic to approaching zeds.
My main concerns are with perks, but not enough have been shown for me to really stress yet. I'm guessing the original perks will be tweaked before the new ones are released? I'd like the Gunslinger perk before the full release.

 

[Hugobertington]

I agree that this clot auto-turn is a bad idea.

Situational importance is key in these type of games. particularly knowing your surroundings.

So if I have to engage and kill a FP or SC as quickly as possible, I need to ensure I have clear line of sight to lay fire down, and a means of avoiding retaliationary charges (which seem to be much more vicious in KF2.

So by having the game forcibly take control of you to spin you around and go "HEY HEY HEY THERE'S CLOTS GNAWING ON YOU WOAH NOW" instead of myself going "Well there's the FP, but I hear clots behind me and that's defo my kevlar vest being torn up, I should spin around, move and engage so I can get this Grenade round into that FP's face" is rather bad design, Player agency is key here

 

[Lieutenant Skittles]

Call me stupid, but I'm unclear on the Scrake. I know the Fleshpound's presence is announced by a roar, but is this the case for the Scrake as well? Yes, I heard the Scrake roar in the background a couple times, and it was the same sound every time, but sometimes when the Scrake appeared I didn't hear that sound. So does the Scrake have an audio que or not?