Question about balistics

[SheepDip]

I agree with Leeeeeeeeeeeeemon.

Server side is the way to go, and I'm sure that's the way it will be. Afaik EPIC have always used server side detection, and it's always worked very well.
Very much doubt TWI are going to change that given the info we know already about the ballistics.

There's a huge amount of *****ing on the EPIC/GOW forums about the fact that it's server side - if you're on a server with a good ping then there are no issues what-so-ever - whole different situation with local hosting/lobby based MP.

And if you're on a server with a bad ping...it's unfortunate, but too bad. Hopefully HOES will be popular enough so everyone can play with a good ping and not have to put up with poor speeds.

 

[LemoN]

There are some clear advantages and slight disadvantages to anti lag.

But for 90% of the people it will be slight advantages and clear disadvantages.
Anti-lag only benefits laggers and high-pingers, people with low pings are facing the ugly side of things.

Now, look back in time to 2006 or 2007, join (in your mind) a RO server with decent ping. You'll see 2-3 people with a ping of above 100 while the rest all have a ping of below 100 or even below 60. And at last 50% of the people with a high ping on that server simply are too stupid to navigate the server browser, as you'd often hear "Uh, I'm from the US, I just joined this server in Russia because it's fun".

And yes, I'm an egoistic ****. I don't want to be pulled down in my ability to play and experience the game just because some people can't afford decent internet or are unlucky enough to live in a country with few RO players.

 

[Zetsumei]

But for 90% of the people it will be slight advantages and clear disadvantages.
Anti-lag only benefits laggers and high-pingers, people with low pings are facing the ugly side of things.

Again that is only the case if either the previous positions of players are backwards predicted rather than looked up. And if the calculation of the actual delay of a player is too far off.

Otherwise even for low pinged players the only disadvantages are that the server can find out that you should have died a certain amount of time ago and kills you post humorously, and additional stresses on the server.

Things such as hit boxes getting off is not a property of lag compensation by itself, but a property of a flawed implementation.

There will always be some error within the prediction of the true delay between players, but that delay is mostly somewhat constant. So at least theoretically a feedback loop should be possible to be created to correct itself.

As by default the UE3 uses a sample rate of 30 tickrate or 33ms this gives an indication of how accurate the ping delay prediction should be so that the error from the anti lag prediction is less than the error from the sampling rate. Aka that the error of the hit boxes is always less than in a LAN situation.

Ticks of a server look like this in UT at a 20 tickrate

Which is one of the reasons why games often have bigger hit boxes than the actual models. To compensate for the data "gaps" that will be created due to the sampling of the tick rate. As otherwise even when accurately hitting someone he actually never dies because the states in between the ticks are not looked at.

Again the chance of this getting in the game is pretty low, as creating a good lag compensation system probably takes a lot of work. And loads of people with prejudice about some previous systems will hammer twi if they add it even if optional.

But if you go to the principle of the issue, a player within lag compensation is predicting where someone is going to be in the future, where as lag compensation is looking up from saved information where a player was at a certain period of time ago. And looking something up will always give you the exact data, while a forward prediction remains a prediction with a certain error margin.

 

[LemoN]

Otherwise even for low pinged players the only disadvantages are that the server can find out that you should have died a certain amount of time ago and kills you post humorously.

I'm fully aware of what you were saying, still this is the ONLY reason why I heavily object "anti-lag", as it creates MORE noticeable lag by killing players post humorously.

I prefer missing a couple of shots over having my game immersion and feeling interrupted by being warped back by the server. It may not be real lag, but it's just as annoying and immersion killing as having somebody warp around the battlefield. Missing a couple of shots is not something you'll usually recognize as a problem, being pulled back a meter around a corner IS something most people find annoying, immersion breaking and artificial.

 

[Knil]

There really is no "right" way to have server calculations done (lag compensation, prediction, or none), they all have their advantages and disadvantages, but there sure are poor examples of each.

 

[Dwin]

I'm fully aware of what you were saying, still this is the ONLY reason why I heavily object "anti-lag", as it creates MORE noticeable lag by killing players post humorously.

I prefer missing a couple of shots over having my game immersion and feeling interrupted by being warped back by the server. It may not be real lag, but it's just as annoying and immersion killing as having somebody warp around the battlefield. Missing a couple of shots is not something you'll usually recognize as a problem, being pulled back a meter around a corner IS something most people find annoying, immersion breaking and artificial.

Having to compensate for lag and seeing bullet impacts significant fractions of a second after firing is just as annoying, immersion breaking, and artificial.

The cons of lag compensation are much less significant that the cons of no lag compensation. Being pulled back a meter around a corner isn't something you will notice unless you get shot. Having to compensate your aim for lag is something that you will notice CONSTANTLY. Especially in a game where the majority of the weapons are very accurate, single shot or semi automatic weapons, and where the delay varies from server to server, it gets very frustrating.

 

[Oldih]

Being pulled back a meter around a corner isn't something you will notice unless you get shot.

Which is basically 3\4 of the gameplaytime whenever you're even remotedly close to an objective, add a guy who can aim somewhat straight and you have it made. Especially with machineguns.

 

[LemoN]

Having to compensate for lag and seeing bullet impacts significant fractions of a second after firing is just as annoying, immersion breaking, and artificial.

I'm sorry, but in a game like RO you will NOT notice +-20ms ping. And anything below 50ms is not noticeable, even in twitch games such as CoD 1 rifle only. And I've been playing that for 5 years. A ping of 80+ requires slight adjustments.

I've played RO with 200ms and could get my kills, I just had to adopt a bit. Ping is even less noticeable in RO as players have to adopt for ballistics as well. Players blaming their lack of skill on high ping (except in really extreme cases) are just pathetic.

 

[Brozex]

Well,I'm in Spain, and the best servers which are always online are always >90 ping, and I have 12 Mb of broadband( in Spain this is quite good, I know that there are some countries ahead ).Maybe I should use cable instead of wireless network(with PCI card, not USB ).For me, it destroys quite a lot the realism because you are supposed to aim with a bolt or semi at where the guy is, not to aim where he is going to be...
I would like to see something like source engine hit detection(in terms of lag handling, not hitboxes xD I know they are horrible).I wouldn't mind corner kills.

 

[LemoN]

For me, it destroys quite a lot the realism because you are supposed to aim with a bolt or semi at where the guy is, not to aim where he is going to be...

See, that's where you are wrong.
You are still supposed to aim ahead of him.

A typical 7.92x57IS round leaves the muzzle with around 740m/s, imagine the target is 200m away and sprinting from the left to the right at 8m/s, which is your average human's sprint.

So, the round will lose some speed after leaving the muzzle, so let's just use 700m/s.

700m/s x 0.3s = 210m
8m/s x 0.3s = 2.4m

So under ideal conditions you'd have to lead the target by 2.4m in order to hit it.
And that's where ping comes in, as many people confuse this simply fact with delay from ping and therefore blame ping on their inability to do simple maths. Sure it increases the amount you have to lead the target, but ultimately it's not going to be something you'd notice the "IN YO FACE" way.

 

[Dwin]

Which is basically 3\4 of the gameplaytime whenever you're even remotedly close to an objective, add a guy who can aim somewhat straight and you have it made. Especially with machineguns.

And what percent of those times when you get shot are you rounding a corner such that you'll notice being "warped"? (quite small). Compare that to the fraction of times when you fire your weapon and notice lag effects? (100% of the time.) That, plus the fact that you'll be firing more often then you will be dying, means that the negative effects of no lag compensation are much more prominent and frequent than the negative effects of having lag compensation.

 

[LemoN]

And what fraction of those times when you get shot are you rounding a corner such that you'll notice being "warped"?

Quite often actually.

 

[Dwin]

I'm sorry, but in a game like RO you will NOT notice +-20ms ping. And anything below 50ms is not noticeable, even in twitch games such as CoD 1 rifle only. And I've been playing that for 5 years. A ping of 80+ requires slight adjustments.

Obviously this is not about players with low ping, otherwise why care about lag compensation? there are many reasons why players might want to (or have to) play on servers with high pings, and this is where lag compensation is needed. For players with low pings, they will not feel the effects of lag compensation. For people with high pings, they will have the benefits, which far outweigh the cons.

I've played RO with 200ms and could get my kills, I just had to adopt a bit. Ping is even less noticeable in RO as players have to adopt for ballistics as well. Players blaming their lack of skill on high ping (except in really extreme cases) are just pathetic.

What does people blaming their lack of skill on high ping have to do with this? Skill or no skill, having to deal with lag is just no fun.

 

[LemoN]

Who is blaming lack of skill on high ping? This has nothing to do with it.

Just look at Brozex. He blames his inability to comprehend the basics of ballistics on high ping.

For me, it destroys quite a lot the realism because you are supposed to aim with a bolt or semi at where the guy is, not to aim where he is going to be...

 

[Dwin]

Quite often actually.

I doubt that. In any case, it's still much less than the fraction of times in which you are shooting and will notice lag effects (ALL THE TIME).

 

[LemoN]

I doubt that. In any case, it's still much less than the fraction of times in which you are shooting and will notice lag effects (ALL THE TIME).

Seriously, you should get your head around the "ZOMG LAG" standpoint. If players are aware of ballistics they shouldn't even notice lag. Also, you can't compare the current situation of RO's servers with what it's going to be in HoS. Back in 2006 there were 20 times as many players and way more servers. Don't forget we'll most likely see a huge increase in player numbers with the release of HoS, which automatically solves ALL server location and playernumber problems people have with RO atm.

 

[Dwin]

Just look at Brozex. He blames his inability to comprehend the basics of ballistics on high ping.

He is correct in that it adds an additional noticeable delay, that differs from server to server. Consider a situation in which you're firing at a target 200m away (rarely is your target that far away). A bullet traveling at 600m/s per second will take 333ms to reach its target. If you have a ping of 200ms, that's an additional 400m delay. Ridiculous.

 

[SheepDip]

I wouldn't even bother joining a game of RO (Unless it was a tank map), or any other shooter if my ping was > 100.

 

[Brozex]

I don't complain about this in long range shots, but when you are in close quarter it's like a joke, you have to aim at where the enemy is going to be...

 

[Dwin]

Seriously, you should get your head around the "ZOMG LAG" standpoint. If players are aware of ballistics they shouldn't even notice lag.

Latency adds a significant and noticeable delay to bullet flight time, as detailed in my previous post.

Also, you can't compare the current situation of RO's servers with what it's going to be in HoS. back in 2006 there were 20 times as many players and way more servers.

It's not just about lack of servers (though it's something to be considered, when HoS starts to reach the end of its lifespan. It's continued playability should be considered, no?). There are many reasons why you might want to play on a server that has a higher ping (e.g. the server is well admined, has good regular players, you like the map rotation) other than a lack of players.