Question about balistics

[SQBsam]

There is no need for "lag compensation", such a notion is ridiculous (ahem, tf2)

This is all to do with the handling of bullet ballistics, a hit or a miss should be determined CLIENT side, while this is open for cheating, a good anti cheat system (ie a simple file value check) would do well in this aspect. All we need is for the client computer to model the ballistics and then determine whether the shot hit or not.

as it is the client models the ballistics (i believe) and the hit or not is calculated on server or possibly on the person being shot. I'm not sure, but it NEEDS to be calculated on the shooter's side.

PLEASE say this is happening already, i dont want to have to aim 10m ahead for a person 50m away

 

[Zetsumei]

There is no need for "lag compensation", such a notion is ridiculous (ahem, tf2)

This is all to do with the handling of bullet ballistics, a hit or a miss should be determined CLIENT side, while this is open for cheating, a good anti cheat system (ie a simple file value check) would do well in this aspect. All we need is for the client computer to model the ballistics and then determine whether the shot hit or not.

as it is the client models the ballistics (i believe) and the hit or not is calculated on server or possibly on the person being shot. I'm not sure, but it NEEDS to be calculated on the shooter's side.

PLEASE say this is happening already, i dont want to have to aim 10m ahead for a person 50m away

There is no such thing as a fail proof anti cheat. client side hit detection will lead to cheating and exploiting of the worst kind.

 

[slavek]

The best anti cheat is a group of experienced/knowledgeable admins.

 

[Dwin]

HoS needs lag compensation.

That is all.

 

[Brozex]

I think that we need SOMETHING(I wouldn't mind the lag compensation that we find Source Engine or client side hit detection) , because when I'm playing RO:OST shoting with bolts is a bit like random shoting, I have to solve system of equations to find out where the bullet it's the guy...

 

[Brozex]

I have read more about this and lots of people were complaining about server side hit detection in several ue3 games(gow,and I think that ut3 is the same).
I know that client side detection is easier to hack, but if not it would be a bit crappy for a realistic shoter...

 

[Napkin]

Please for god sakes hit detection better be good in this game and not like BC2

 

[Susi]

What lag compensation does is that player who i allready shot,
have few milli seconds time to shoot me, before server gets the calculation
done.

Which means that in most of games where you have "one to one" situation
it doesnt matter, who got better reflects. Becuase it will allways end up
to situation where both get killed.

Which happens really rarely in RO.

 

[doomis]

Which happens really rarely in RO.

And all the time in BC2

 

[CopperHead]

The good thing for us Americans, is that this game should be big enough to where there will be a few years of Dedicated American pubbers wanting to play. There are plenty of American servers out there, the problem is that the ratio of Americans to euros must be at least 10-1, so they all join a euro server. What gets me is that sometimes you can get on a euro server at 10 PM and you can clearly see form everyones pings that we are all NA players. Then you try to get on there and announce for them to all follow you to a an NA server with better ping and they mostly ignore you.

 

[Zetsumei]

What lag compensation does is that player who i allready shot,
have few milli seconds time to shoot me, before server gets the calculation
done.

Which means that in most of games where you have "one to one" situation
it doesnt matter, who got better reflects. Becuase it will allways end up
to situation where both get killed.

Which happens really rarely in RO.

The thing is in case a person with lag ends up killing you that means he actually fired the trigger before you did. Its not to every bodies taste which is why something like it should always be optional but its not that unfair. If anything if a server finds out that a shot was fired before said person was killed and then getting the kill done is more about actual who got better reflexes than by default giving the lower pinged player a 150ms advantage.

The issue you talk about that most of the time both people kill each other is more common with client side hit detection. As beside the lag from client to server it must travel back from server to client as well. Especially in ww2online the horrors of client side hit detection show. Where you have nearly 5 seconds to kill someone after someone shot you .

Together with the slow death system I think that 2 people killing each other will happen more often.

 

[Brozex]

I have tried RO:OST with bots to see what happens with -1 ping and it's like another game, it's way more easy to kill someone...When I play on servers I almost always have to aim calculating the lag, and that sucks...

 

[Napkin]

Every game has this issue. Some have it worse than others.

I hope the hit detection is good in this game. After playing BC2 i find myself always getting killed because my bullets don't register, the enemy turns around and shoots me

 

[Brozex]

I prefer how source games,COD4 even BC2 handles hit detection, in BC2 at least yo don't have to calculate how much will it take to hit the enemy according to your ping...

 

[Brozex]

LOL, post clonation...
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1494495
I found this, and the my point of view is that I prefer weird things that being killed afete you covered behind a wall(like source engine) or being killed by the guy you killed than having to calculate where to shot when you are facing a man at 5 m from you.

 

[Grobut]

I never found it too bad in RO, but then, i am in Yurp, and it seems we've got most of the full servers to choose from, thouse of you in Merrka may not have been as fortunate.

But then it's a very good thing Ro2 seems to be gaining notoriety, and it seems a safe bet there will be quite a lot more players this time around, so maybe this time we'll all have low-ping choices on hand.

 

[LemoN]

Ok, first of all I've been playing FPS's online for almost 14 years and I NEVER had any problem with the "old" games, of which none had "anti lag".

All examples of "good" hit-detection you have yet cited are the worst examples of hit detection I've ever seen.

All games that you have cited, CoD4, source games and BC2 have HORRIBLE hit detection.

For me the best hit detection in games were in: CoD1, Quake 3, UT99, RO (didn't play enough later UT to judge about those)

Now one may argue that these games didn't account for lag, and that's true. But it's also the reason why they are so good. I usually don't play on servers with a ping of >80, which is pretty much the ping those games have been designed for. If you scored a hit it was a hit, if you turned around a corner or took cover behind some sandbags you were safe. Playing with a ping of 200 also was very playable still.

Only with the rise of cheap console ports has "anti lag" become big... why you may ask? Because the typical ping is somewhere between 100 and 200ms which is an entirely different magnitude than a ping of 50... and the net-code also is crap.

Overall, anti-lag creates more lag instead of less, as it "warps" you around corners and negates cover to some extent. This paired with the horrible hit detection in all new console ports and the low health value/high weapon damage just turned them into easy peasy console shooters which require no skill.

If HoS will be dead-locked with anti-lag I simply won't buy it, if it's an option I simply won't join the servers or disconnect after finding out about it (as with CoD2 x_x), if it's not included then I applaud to TWI.

 

[SQBsam]

red orchestra (ost) has the best hit detection i have ever seen, its just the damn ping management.

Even though client side is not infallible, a good admin and some competent anti cheat should be enough to discourage if not eliminate cheating completely.

 

[LemoN]

Even though client side is not infallible, a good admin and some competent anti cheat should be enough to discourage if not eliminate cheating completely.

You best be jesting.

Client side hit-detection is a no-go.

 

[Zetsumei]

Overall, anti-lag creates more lag instead of less, as it "warps" you around corners and negates cover to some extent. This paired with the horrible hit detection in all new console ports and the low health value/high weapon damage just turned them into easy peasy console shooters which require no skill.

If HoS will be dead-locked with anti-lag I simply won't buy it, if it's an option I simply won't join the servers or disconnect after finding out about it (as with CoD2 x_x), if it's not included then I applaud to TWI.

You shouldn't generalize bad experiences as facts about a group name for certain functionality that got 1001 different implementations though. Next to that a player can only measure the overall experience. Even if a game got a good anti lag measurement, bad net code can still ruin things completely.

For instance how good hit detection is or the general net code hasn't got that much to do with whether the anti lag implementation works or not.

There are some clear advantages and slight disadvantages to anti lag. It should always be an option. However for specific groups it could offer a great outcome. Especially as anti lag additions to the engine could be reused for KF2 for instance, especially in coop and user hosted local servers is anti lag a great benefit. The same with people playing abroad. At low ping servers you wouldn't need it but personally I would love to at times play more internationally with for instance people from this forum together on one server.

The biggest issue is that we've all seen lag compensation done horribly wrong thousands of times especially with backwards prediction of states, or horrible guestimates of how far to look back in time by purely using the net ping rather than total process time. The horrors of bad implementations are deeply engrained into our minds. That doesn't mean however that all implementations are bad.

Nobody wants a system that got obvious flaws and bugs, and is so inaccurate that you under 100 ping you are at a definite benefit from having it off. Neither does anyone want a system that is easy to exploit and cheat with.