KF Project Santa

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Jack-Carver

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 28, 2009
833
232
0
32
Come on. Don't tell me this voting was fair. Just an assumption but I believe you guys made an "alien-gun" somewhere past in the last 3 months and freezer gun seemed like a good idea. It was already decided; why would you remove M60E4 from list with like 30 votes otherwise? You asked for making something for the community and you got the answer, why searched further?

No and no. Also it does not make sense to discuss this any further. We do not have any alien gun and the concept art will be finished by next week.
The M60 has been removed because we forgot to say that LMGs are not allowed in the voting. That was my mistake sorry for that.
Without a LMG perk I do not want to add a LMG to KF.

We are also doing this for free and if we just wanted the freezer gun we wouldn't even have made a voting.

This project is time and cost intense as we make everything from scratch without harming any copyrights.
I can't force you to like what we do. We're making a free weapon for the community and hope that some people have fun with it.
 

Eisbaer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 10, 2012
116
0
0
Didn't you guys say the 5 best weapons would make it into the second round where another voting would take place?
 

Jack-Carver

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 28, 2009
833
232
0
32
Didn't you guys say the 5 best weapons would make it into the second round where another voting would take place?

Yes that was planed but the votes were quite obvious and time is short till christmas. We now have to use all the time we have to complete the work.
 

Tefaan

Member
Oct 24, 2012
621
5
18
[..]We are also doing this for free and if we just wanted the freezer gun we wouldn't even have made a voting.

This project is time and cost intense as we make everything from scratch without harming any copyrights.
I can't force you to like what we do. We're making a free weapon for the community and hope that some people have fun with it.

lol you shouldn't need to justify that. I'm really happy that you decided to create a weapon which is free for everyone and even involve the community in the choice of the weapon. I'm sure many people appreciate that! Thanks!
 

Jack-Carver

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 28, 2009
833
232
0
32
lol you shouldn't need to justify that. I'm really happy that you decided to create a weapon which is free for everyone and even involve the community in the choice of the weapon. I'm sure many people appreciate that! Thanks!

We're happy you appreciate it :)
The first concept arts should appear by next week. Have a great weekend everyone!
 

Skell

Active member
Mar 21, 2013
1,242
2
38
On the Internet.
Come on. Don't tell me this voting was fair. Just an assumption but I believe you guys made an "alien-gun" somewhere past in the last 3 months and freezer gun seemed like a good idea. It was already decided; why would you remove M60E4 from list with like 30 votes otherwise? You asked for making something for the community and you got the answer, why searched further?

No and no. Also it does not make sense to discuss this any further. We do not have any alien gun and the concept art will be finished by next week.
The M60 has been removed because we forgot to say that LMGs are not allowed in the voting. That was my mistake sorry for that.
Without a LMG perk I do not want to add a LMG to KF.

We are also doing this for free and if we just wanted the freezer gun we wouldn't even have made a voting.

This project is time and cost intense as we make everything from scratch without harming any copyrights.
I can't force you to like what we do. We're making a free weapon for the community and hope that some people have fun with it.
Naksiloth is obviously half-right here. They were scared they would have to make my idea, the firework rpg, and were so spooked by the concept they rigged the vote they themselves started. The LMG removal was but a ruse in an attempt to trick people thinking about that instead of my firework rpg. It's so obvious this was rigged! How could you, IJC!? :]

Spoiler!
 

Jack-Carver

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 28, 2009
833
232
0
32
Naksiloth is obviously half-right here. They were scared they would have to make my idea, the firework rpg, and were so spooked by the concept they rigged the vote they themselves started. The LMG removal was but a ruse in an attempt to trick people thinking about that instead of my firework rpg. It's so obvious this was rigged! How could you, IJC!? :]

Spoiler!

You got me there :eek: ;)
 

SHM

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 22, 2013
478
0
0
Italy
aw, why doesn't TWI insert it in the game officially?
also, i like the fact that is going to be a non perk wep
 

FluX

Grizzled Veteran
Oct 26, 2010
5,379
234
63
www.fluxiserver.co.uk
The LMG idea sucked; No one would have used it because there's no way to balance a weapon like that.

With some real thoughts and testing, anything can be balanced. I've done a lot of balancing that people think is impossible. I should really post my balancing for others to try I guess.
 

Skell

Active member
Mar 21, 2013
1,242
2
38
On the Internet.
With some real thoughts and testing, anything can be balanced. I've done a lot of balancing that people think is impossible. I should really post my balancing for others to try I guess.
A gun with ~100 bullets becomes Body Shot: The Video Game.

All you end up with is an assault rifle with an inflated bullet count and fire speed with low bullet damage. That's not fun or enticing gameplay. Post your set of balances for LMGs in a thread as a mod for the vanilla game so people can actually try it. Simply saying "I did it and I'm really good" doesn't make anyone really believe you (or care, for that matter, since anyone can say "I've balanced that").
 

vealck

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 19, 2009
2,815
234
0
All you end up with is an assault rifle with an inflated bullet count and fire speed with low bullet damage. That's not fun or enticing gameplay.

Hmm. I think a 100-round mag bullpup that looks like for example M249 would be nice to use. I don't think it would be op.
 

naksiloth

Member
Dec 29, 2010
429
14
18
You got me there :eek: ;)

Naksiloth is obviously half-right here. They were scared they would have to make my idea, the firework rpg, and were so spooked by the concept they rigged the vote they themselves started. The LMG removal was but a ruse in an attempt to trick people thinking about that instead of my firework rpg. It's so obvious this was rigged! How could you, IJC!? :]

Spoiler!

M60E4 had like 30 votes before removal, because someone in the entire team simply forgot to tell "LMGs are not allowed and they suck, you're all CoD loving idiots and no way in hell we gonna balance that".
Now which theory I should count in and credit? One, you had something prepared already from the leftovers of ZED mk2 concept and freezer gun seemed like a good idea; two, someone forgot to say LMGs are not allowed before M60E4 hit 30 votes.

A gun with ~100 bullets becomes Body Shot: The Video Game.

All you end up with is an assault rifle with an inflated bullet count and fire speed with low bullet damage. That's not fun or enticing gameplay. Post your set of balances for LMGs in a thread as a mod for the vanilla game so people can actually try it. Simply saying "I did it and I'm really good" doesn't make anyone really believe you (or care, for that matter, since anyone can say "I've balanced that").

We already have a DLC/unlock weapon with 50-62 bullet count for mando, and it's still far far away from making the game a bodyshot fest. If it makes the game a bodyshot fest then it should be removed or at least get called as a P2W weapon on the community. Nope, Drum magazine Tommy guns are not flare revolvers.

Inflated bullet count; yes. Reloading in the middle of a ZED time is annoying and LMGs have plenty.
Increased fire rate; nope. They shouldn't possess anything faster than a SCAR (600 rpm) as M60's rate of fire is very close to it 500-650 rpm. It can be 500 rpm and no one would complain.
Reduced bullet damage; nah. We don't want another pea shooter but an expanded magazine, higher recoil, high damage light machine gun.
Ofcourse there could be draw backs to that, like just an extra drum magazine of 100 (200 base 250 with mando bonus) thus not allowing you to trash clear that effectively, longer reloading sequence comes in mind. Also since it's a large and long barrel rifle, it can push you back when going full auto unless you're in a crouching position.

As for balance, heck no, you're beating a dead horse there and it'll be a mutator, not even part of the official game. We're playing a coop game to kill clones, it's not a competitive play. No one care about M99's current balance. It was too powerful and devastated Crossbow on many areas of gameplay and it got a price increase; fair and square. Now no one uses M99 besides Patriarch wave.

That's what will happen with the LMG, if it cannot be balanced it will be pushed over to the Final Wave, (or server admins will ignore it) yet we still get what we wanted. Will anyone out there will still be left caring about KF1's "muh balance" when KF2 come out? All in all, if it's a mutator let server admins decide if it's balanced or not.
 
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Gladius

Grizzled Veteran
Oct 4, 2011
1,452
83
48
A gun with ~100 bullets becomes Body Shot: The Video Game.

All you end up with is an assault rifle with an inflated bullet count and fire speed with low bullet damage. That's not fun or enticing gameplay
People have different views of what's fun or enticing gameplay. I like to use the RS Tommy + Dr.T what holds together 112 rounds before reload (750 rounds total). I do that even on HoE in certain situations. These two guns combined weight 10 blocks what still leaves 4 blocks for pistols, M79 or whatever. Headshot damage is 66. This kills everything below husk/siren with a single shot. It's pretty effective for crowd control, due to the sustained fire rate. In these overwhelming situations, when people usually hope for the demo, because everybody is reloading, you just keep firing.

This is something that is already in the game but behind a DLC paywall.

There are LMG's in 5,56mm what is the caliber of the Bullpup (42 headshot damage) and the M4 (57 headshot damage). Then we have 7,62 caliber weapons like the SCAR/FAL which deal 106 head damage. The Tommyguns are right in between and have a shorter effective range than the 7,62 AR's. Thats a balanced LMG. On lower difficultys this is ridicolously OP.

You want it more powerful? Combine SCAR/FAL with more ammo and trade off to significant spread penaltys when moving or not crouching.


I don't really want to start a balance discussion, because the LMG is already off the table and since I heard the weapon will be a voluntary mutator and not being forced into the core game, I don't care anyways.

I just can't agree that an LMG couldn't be balanced per se.
 

Amber Glass

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 19, 2011
902
33
0
there is already an LMG type weapon in KF...

its called the flamethrower. i feel an LMG could be balanced, but it would be a lot less versatile than having two rifles, especially one with a higher damage output such as the scar or FAL. I mean if you absoutely love machineguns i could see why you would want it added to the game, but the RS tommy and Dr Ts LDS are practically already LMGs.
 

-=Ivan=-

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 27, 2009
235
105
0
M60E4 had like 30 votes before removal, because someone in the entire team simply forgot to tell "LMGs are not allowed and they suck, you're all CoD loving idiots and no way in hell we gonna balance that".
Now which theory I should count in and credit? One, you had something prepared already from the leftovers of ZED mk2 concept and freezer gun seemed like a good idea; two, someone forgot to say LMGs are not allowed before M60E4 hit 30 votes.



We already have a DLC/unlock weapon with 50-62 bullet count for mando, and it's still far far away from making the game a bodyshot fest. If it makes the game a bodyshot fest then it should be removed or at least get called as a P2W weapon on the community. Nope, Drum magazine Tommy guns are not flare revolvers.

Inflated bullet count; yes. Reloading in the middle of a ZED time is annoying and LMGs have plenty.
Increased fire rate; nope. They shouldn't possess anything faster than a SCAR (600 rpm) as M60's rate of fire is very close to it 500-650 rpm. It can be 500 rpm and no one would complain.
Reduced bullet damage; nah. We don't want another pea shooter but an expanded magazine, higher recoil, high damage light machine gun.
Ofcourse there could be draw backs to that, like just an extra drum magazine of 100 (200 base 250 with mando bonus) thus not allowing you to trash clear that effectively, longer reloading sequence comes in mind. Also since it's a large and long barrel rifle, it can push you back when going full auto unless you're in a crouching position.

As for balance, heck no, you're beating a dead horse there and it'll be a mutator, not even part of the official game. We're playing a coop game to kill clones, it's not a competitive play. No one care about M99's current balance. It was too powerful and devastated Crossbow on many areas of gameplay and it got a price increase; fair and square. Now no one uses M99 besides Patriarch wave.

That's what will happen with the LMG, if it cannot be balanced it will be pushed over to the Final Wave, (or server admins will ignore it) yet we still get what we wanted. Will anyone out there will still be left caring about KF1's "muh balance" when KF2 come out? All in all, if it's a mutator let server admins decide if it's balanced or not.

1)
The M60 had exactly 18 votes when we removed it. People also had to chance to vote for another weapon if they have chosen the M50 before.

2)
Please do not forget to make a theory which includes the NSA or CIA!

3)
There is a huge difference between balance and realistic balance. The M60 would just feel like a toy weapon with Bullpup damage. A Bullpup with drum mag would do the same job. A long reload time also can not compensate the high damage output. For example you have the M82A1 with a 15 second reload time, you can still kill the Patriarch with ease.
Maybe we will make a Domination Weapon Pack (featuring M82A1, M2 Machine Gun, .700 Nitro and S&W .500) because everything is balanceable.

4)
We still want to be whitelisted, so it is important to make a balanced weapon.
 

FluX

Grizzled Veteran
Oct 26, 2010
5,379
234
63
www.fluxiserver.co.uk
A gun with ~100 bullets becomes Body Shot: The Video Game.

All you end up with is an assault rifle with an inflated bullet count and fire speed with low bullet damage. That's not fun or enticing gameplay. Post your set of balances for LMGs in a thread as a mod for the vanilla game so people can actually try it. Simply saying "I did it and I'm really good" doesn't make anyone really believe you (or care, for that matter, since anyone can say "I've balanced that").

I've done a lot of balancing that people think is impossible. I should really post my balancing for others to try I guess.
That is why I put this. I personally have my own perk for it so that is how I see the gun. There is two ways in general. Keep it perkless and balance it that way in terms of stats OR put it on a perk (if commando is the choice here), do NOT give it specific bonuses like reload bonus. LMG/HMG = long reloads but high spam. Give it a high spread so that accuracy is not something that is good for medium-long range. Keep it for small-medium range. Lower damage so it is significant to be compared to the other weapons.

When I balance weapons, I always ask what role it needs to take. Does it do crowd control, mass damage, mass spread, etc. M60 is a big crowd control for clearing small areas but large amounts at once. The above is a great example of balancing it but this always depends on how you want to implement such a thing.

Hmm. I think a 100-round mag bullpup that looks like for example M249 would be nice to use. I don't think it would be op.
This is actually very similar to what I was saying, though I have only done this with the modded SA80. It has the exact same damage but I did tweak the spread etc. It needs to remove all reload rates though obviously. The SA80 that I use is rather nice to be fair.
 

naksiloth

Member
Dec 29, 2010
429
14
18
1)
The M60 had exactly 18 votes when we removed it. People also had to chance to vote for another weapon if they have chosen the M50 before.

'kay, let's say only 20 votes then, still high.

2)
Please do not forget to make a theory which includes the NSA or CIA!

Please don't try to digress the situation with over used jokes. Those jokes don't justify you forgetting "oh hey guys, LMGs are not allowed in the voting sorry for that." part after 18 votes.

3)
There is a huge difference between balance and realistic balance.

Yes. But still it's a mod, not an official addition.

The M60 would just feel like a toy weapon with Bullpup damage.

No. It's about how you give the stats and drawbacks.

A Bullpup with drum mag would do the same job.

No.

A long reload time also can not compensate the high damage output. For example you have the M82A1 with a 15 second reload time, you can still kill the Patriarch with ease.

No. A 70 base damage LMG with 100 bullet fed magazine would only deal 7000 before reload in 20 seconds of sustained fire at 500 rpm. At Hell on Earth 6-player Patriarch (33250 hp max) will kneel down after incurring 6650 damage and runs to heal for 25%. Let's add 50% damage of mando bonus, that would boost it to the 105 damage. That's like FNFAL or SCAR headshot with headshot bonus but not quite, still at 500 rpm (lower than SCAR and FNFAL) Patriarch would come close and strike you out. Not counting the range between you and Patriarch and immense recoil.

Maybe we will make a Domination Weapon Pack (featuring M82A1, M2 Machine Gun, .700 Nitro and S&W .500) because everything is balanceable.

Your examples are laughable.
M82A1 is nothing different than M99.
M2 machine gun is just like what we asked and you still assume it's unbalanceable.
S&W 500 is just another powerful magnum/handcannon with 5 shots, as a pistol it will have 1.1x headshot multiplier just like handcannon I don't see any fuss about it cuz its damage just will be around Handcannon or .44 magnums.
.700 nitro ammunition is profound to be inoperable even in hunting games because of the imbalanced recoil, so dunno.

4)
We still want to be whitelisted, so it is important to make a balanced weapon.

Price tag and heavier weight for the LMG would be a last resort and a final solution and tuning. You once release it then talk to TWI about balance to get it white listed?
Because I don't see any problem once you guys are willing to give, yet it's too late to bicker at a wall.
 
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Jack-Carver

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 28, 2009
833
232
0
32
As you see this is a free event and we do not want to make an LMG which either would be a joke or overpowered. There is no LMG perk in KF.
Let's see how things will be in KF2. If there is a perk for it, then we will certainly make LMGs.

Yeah sure the M82A1 would totaly be balanceable with a 10 round mag, semi auto and lots of firepower. You can't be can't be sad if you have such a thing :D
 
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