Pro-rata reinforcements

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Tiger2

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 13, 2008
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Can we have not just global reinf. but reinforcements limited to each class. And if a player leaves a team, the reinforcements should be reduced in proportion to how many respawns there were per player in that team.
 

Direct

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 18, 2010
87
83
0
Toronto, Canadaland
That doesnt make sense - the Closest thing you can do to that is have a limited number of weapons available..

So basically for 1000 reinforcements you would have like

50 LMGs
700 Rifles
250 SMGs

(just an example)

Once the reinforcements for SMGs or LMGs run out they have to spawn a different class.

But then this doesnt support the limits per class.

TL;DR

No
 

Tiger2

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 13, 2008
501
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If another player joins reinforcements will be adjusted again, so no issue with that. As for reinforcements per class, if a certain class depletes i.e. Mg, then that player will spawn as a different class provided reinforcements are available for it. This will indeed brake class limits in certain cases, but it only represents the real situation i.e. All mgs have been killed in action.
 

Zetsumei

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
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Falmouth UK
Personally I hope for something a bit different.

If you have only 6 snipers on a map then you say want the sniper class to stay alive long and play cautiously. But if its limited to simply 6 re-spawns for the class you get one john doe that will die 6 times wasting the class for the entire team single handedly.

Which is why I'm a fan of individual reinforcements. Where certain classes are more expensive to take than others. Say you start with 10 reinforcement points (achievements by your team give you more as can others gift you some points), and then say a sniper costs 4 points to spawn as while a regular rifleman costs 1 point.

This will make sure that people take good care of special classes as they are expensive. This will likely make people act more responsibly with their class or end up having to loose the class for running out of reinforcement points.

New players would get the average of individual reinforcements that the rest of the team got, while points for people that drop out are saved. (logically with clan matches then the entire team shares one big pool of reinforcement points).
 

Tiger2

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 13, 2008
501
144
0
Then it is a counter strike system where you use money to buy weapons. I dont think it suits the spirit of Ro. But as for bad players it is the same story with them whatever the rules are.
 

Zetsumei

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
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Falmouth UK
As far as I know counterstrike doesn't have any re-spawns or reinforcements so don't see how it is comparable. In counterstrike you have 1 life so if anything everybody will try to get their best weapon as quickly as possible. Here you actually think twice before picking an very strong but rare weapon, as it costs your own points to re-spawn. Encouraging people to actually not hold the sniper for the entire map, unless they are doing really well.

Aka every time you re-spawn it costs the reinforcement points for that class.

the key is that global pools means a single player can ruin everything for an entire team. It can work when the entire team is one cohesive unit like in coop with friends or a clan/unit match. But in public when you do not care that much for other players at some point everybody will stop caring. As if others are not using the resources with care why should you, it will feel that if you are playing safe that others will just waste whatever you saved.

Of course individual reinforcements look less team oriented, but if players feel the disadvantage of wasting reinforcements directly with their own player. Then people are much more likely to use the reinforcement more coutiously, an effect that could even be seen in quake3, ut2004 and return to castle wolfenstein in limited life matches.

Where as in RO people do not use the reinforcements cautiously until the team is actually completely out of reinforcements. Directly making reinforcements affect an individual will result in a more powerfull effect of having low reinforcement and a more spread out cautiousness if people are running low, leading to the exact behaviour you would have wanted with team based reinf.
 
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Forssen

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 23, 2010
851
315
0
Sweden
As far as I know counterstrike doesn't have any re-spawns or reinforcements so don't see how it is comparable. In counterstrike you have 1 life so if anything everybody will try to get their best weapon as quickly as possible. Here you actually think twice before picking an very strong but rare weapon, as it costs your own points to re-spawn. Encouraging people to actually not hold the sniper for the entire map, unless they are doing really well.

One round in counterstrike doesn't last that long so it's pretty comparable to ROs re-spawns. It's not like you suddenly get infinite money/points to buy all the weapons you need in counterstrike either. There were a lot of tactics on when to get what weapons in that game especially in competitive. All I wanted to say is that your idea indeed sounds exactly like counterstrike type games where you buy weapons, doesn't have to be a bad thing but I really don't think it fits in RO.

The only difference between your idea is that you start up with a sum of money/points instead of earning it.

Where as in RO people do not use the reinforcements cautiously until the team is actually completely out of reinforcements. Directly making reinforcements affect an individual will result in a more powerfull effect of having low reinforcement and a more spread out cautiousness if people are running low, leading to the exact behaviour you would have wanted with team based reinf.

There are so many problems with individual reinforcements like people might have to wait for 3 people who only died once or twice during the entire game while everyone else used up their re-spawn points. Some classes on some maps clearly die more often then others and I think it would be hell to attempt to balance it out. I mostly play darkest hour and a reason the only reason the attacking team sometimes loose is because of a big part of the players are camping for easy kills and not pushing forward. Can't see how this would get better with individual reinforcements.


I think the best compromise is to have it as it is even if it means people won't care about loosing reinforcements until the end. I can only see way more annoying problems with different solution. Ideas like your or making each re-spawn take longer time for each death only sounds good until you think about the consequences.
 

Zetsumei

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
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Falmouth UK
In red Orchestra the spawn time for a lot of maps is 15 or 20 seconds, the spawn time in a game like counterstrike after dying is like 5 minutes. I wouldn't call 1500% of the time a respawn in Red Orchestra takes similar.

Sure it looks similar to the principle of buying, but that is exactly because that is something people can natively understand and grasp. You can spawn either 20 times with a rifleman or say 5 times as a sniper, it increases the rotation rate among rare classes, and actually gives an increased value to the more important classes. And classes that are supposed to die more could be allowed to die more like for instance smg soldiers.

By default without some changes individual reinforcement can have some issues like the entire team running out beside a few. Although these effects can easily be minimized by for instance resetting the reinforcements as I said in steps, like after certain time intervals or obtaining certain cap zones. Next to the ability for people to give some of their lives to other players.

This means that a player that runs out of reinforcement will soon be able to play again, and will encourage his team to actually survive rather than die (as once they cap something you can play again).

Another thing you need to remember though is that in other games with limited individual reinforcements people would end up adapting their play to the reinforcement level, if you die too quick a few times people end up playing more secure for instance. Generally even if in a 30 minute game people only had 4 lives hardly anyone would be without reinforcements.

Individual reinforcements by default do not make people camp or not, but it makes people aware of the reinforcements. So if the reinforcements are low they play campy and if the reinforcements are high they will play more aggressive.

And that is the great thing, in RO if a mapper gives a map low reinforcements it only means that the team will run out of reinforcements quicker it generally does not change the way people play. With individual reinforcements people individually see the effects of reinforcements and adapt to play in the best way possible that allows them to stay alive, and that is why you generally see that hardly anyone runs out of reinforcements.

If reinforcements are in the game, then in any way possible people should be aware of how they individually affect it and be appraised for their usage of reinforcements. Direct feedback is the easiest way to generally make things clear to people.
 
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Forssen

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 23, 2010
851
315
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Sweden
In red Orchestra the spawn time for a lot of maps is 15 or 20 seconds, the spawn time in a game like counterstrike after dying is like 5 minutes. I wouldn't call 1500% of the time a respawn in Red Orchestra takes similar.

The standard cs round is 5min in competitive I believe it was 2.15.


Sure it looks similar to the principle of buying, but that is exactly because that is something people can natively understand and grasp. You can spawn either 20 times with a rifleman or say 5 times as a sniper, it increases the rotation rate among rare classes, and actually gives an increased value to the more important classes. And classes that are supposed to die more could be allowed to die more like for instance smg soldiers.

How can you make it so you are allowed to die more being a smg soldiers then a riflemen without making it less expensive in points.

By default without some changes individual reinforcement can have some issues like the entire team running out beside a few. Although these effects can easily be minimized by for instance resetting the reinforcements as I said in steps, like after certain time intervals or obtaining certain cap zones. Next to the ability for people to give some of their lives to other players.

This means that a player that runs out of reinforcement will soon be able to play again, and will encourage his team to actually survive rather than die (as once they cap something you can play again).

A close match to this game-type will already be present in the game. Why the need to change the standard one closer to it?

Individual reinforcements by default do not make people camp or not, but it makes people aware of the reinforcements. So if the reinforcements are low they play campy and if the reinforcements are high they will play more aggressive.

I'm certain individual reinforcement would promote camping. The players would be less willing to do their job.

And that is the great thing, in RO if a mapper gives a map low reinforcements it only means that the team will run out of reinforcements quicker it generally does not change the way people play. With individual reinforcements people individually see the effects of reinforcements and adapt to play in the best way possible that allows them to stay alive, and that is why you generally see that hardly anyone runs out of reinforcements.

Yes, but they will be camping more and not necessarily instead do what they are expected too more carefully.


A point penalty for getting killed if anything at all is probably the best way to make people more cautious. I however don't even like that.
 

Zetsumei

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 22, 2005
12,458
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Falmouth UK
If you have infinite individual reinforcements you won't bother to camp. If you have 0 reinf you will play defensive. The key of individual reinforcements is that any step in-between gives a different reaction to players.

Indeed the assault class should be cheaper than other classes per spawn that's what i said . Which is the entire idea behind making different classes cost more or less reinforcement points per spawn.

Why I want the current system changed? because it might as well not be there and there wouldn't really make any difference. If there is a reinforcement system in place then it might as well be made to work well or be totally removed.

Indeed players will revert to well defences positions and be more campy if there are low reinforcement amounts. And that is exactly the entity a mapper could use if he wanted for a certain section. Like for instance if you want the defenders to defend and not to attack.

Point penalties only work for a select group that actually cares for points. In Red Orchestra generally everybody learned to not bother for the score that much as it doesn't say who helps the team the most or who is the most skilled.