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Level Design [Preview] RO-Kriegstadt: Der Untergang Berlins

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#121
[VFD]HH said:
Quick question, what will the class load-outs look for standard 0-32 players (and for 32+, can it have a sane scaling up plz!)
Click to expand...
EvilHobo said:
In regard to loadouts, one can expect the following:

Axis
x2 MG
x4 Assault
x1 Panzerjaeger
x1 Gruppenfuhrer
x2 Semi Auto
Unlimited Riflemen

Allies
x2 MG
x7 Assault
x1 Saper
x2 Semi Auto
x1 Squad Leader
x1 Tank Commander
x3 Tank Crew
Unlimited Riflemen
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that means the only soldiers you'll see more of in higher player count servers will be riflemen.
 
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#123
Yep, basically no scaling. On 32 player servers the Russians are being given tactical flexibility in regard to their loadouts; they can go all out on SMGs, or when the time is necessary switch to a rifleman role. When the player count increases, the Russians can max out their SMG count and the riflemen can play more of a support role.

For the Germans, if you increased the amount of automatics, the Russians will suffer greatly when they actually manage to get inside of the buildings. Most buildings have two stairwells, and if you have StGs watching those with guys in reserve in the hallway with either more StGs or even dare I say the MG42, a Russian breakthrough on to the upper levels becomes almost an impossibility. And given that the poor lads need to run close to 100 meters just to get somewhere, they don't need to come face to face with 8 StGs and 4 MG42s or something like that. It just won't work out.

Besides, I am by nature a rifleman, and this is a map where, on high capacity servers, the rifleman will be playing a more prominent role as opposed to being a neglected minority weapon.
 
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#125
Considering the size of the map and the various situations that it presents, I wanted for the Russians to have a tactical flexibility in tackling the objectives. When you are made to charge across a 100m long square, a rifle will do you more good at keeping the heads of the Germans down or off than an SMG will allot, but lets say once you have established your foothold at the base of that building, you're going to want to go at it with your SMGs against entrenched Germans. I advocate a healthy mix of SMGs and rifles, but this is Berlin in 1945; the Russians have everything they could possibly need at their disposal and may use what they need to accomplish their goals. On the higher player servers, the rifleman will play a more prominent role as covering fire while the large groups of SMGs are allowed to advance through the ruins and buildings toward the objectives. At least the option for rifles is there, unlike on Lyes Krovy.


And don't roll your eyes at my statement. Let's also quote it in proper context:

...and this is a map where, on high capacity servers, the rifleman will be playing a more prominent role as opposed to being a neglected minority weapon.
Click to expand...
What I say here is true. On larger player servers, the overabundance of SMGs, Semi Auto Rifles, Snipers, and other classes forces the rifleman in to that neglected minority, and with all the said special classes in play at any given moment and their deaths occuring almost constantly due to the presence of opposing equivalent units and an increase of grenades, there becomes no shortage of these weapons to go around.
 
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#126
EvilHobo said:
Considering the size of the map and the various situations that it presents, I wanted for the Russians to have a tactical flexibility in tackling the objectives. When you are made to charge across a 100m long square, a rifle will do you more good at keeping the heads of the Germans down or off than an SMG will allot, but lets say once you have established your foothold at the base of that building, you're going to want to go at it with your SMGs against entrenched Germans. I advocate a healthy mix of SMGs and rifles, but this is Berlin in 1945; the Russians have everything they could possibly need at their disposal and may use what they need to accomplish their goals. On the higher player servers, the rifleman will play a more prominent role as covering fire while the large groups of SMGs are allowed to advance through the ruins and buildings toward the objectives. At least the option for rifles is there, unlike on Lyes Krovy.

And don't roll your eyes at my statement. Let's also quote it in proper context:

What I say here is true. On larger player servers, the overabundance of SMGs, Semi Auto Rifles, Snipers, and other classes forces the rifleman in to that neglected minority, and with all the said special classes in play at any given moment and their deaths occuring almost constantly due to the presence of opposing equivalent units and an increase of grenades, there becomes no shortage of these weapons to go around.
Click to expand...

On LyesKrovy the option for rifles was introduced with the high player server settings good sir.

Part of me finds that regrettable, since it's not in the spirit of the map, but what the heck, we needed to since having that many smgs on such a close quarter map killed the high player servers. I also created Kaukasus, still one of the most rifle oriented maps in RO today, so I'm not an advocate of full auto's per se, nor am I a strong opponent. I like it all.

I'm not debating your setup, you have all the expansion room in the world because like you said, it's Berlin and more importantly, it's your map.

Your comment though is funny, and certainly worth a :rolleyes: since you create that 'neglected minority weapon' yourself on the lower player count servers within the same map. And that is also quite true :D
 
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#127
EvilHobo said:
When you are made to charge across a 100m long square, a rifle will do you more good at keeping the heads of the Germans down or off than an SMG will allot, but lets say once you have established your foothold at the base of that building, you're going to want to go at it with your SMGs against entrenched Germans.
Click to expand...

Considering that you can actually give *some* suppresive fire with say a ppsh41 while moving, and the psychology of the situation, and the skill of most rifleman, 1) the Russians only have to really fear the MGs and the occasional good rifleman up to 50 meters, and 2) the PPSH is actually better at keeping heads down at 50 meters.

If you have tons of bullets zooming by you, you think your under heavy fire so you completely hide (generally) if you do not see A) where the bullets are coming from, and B) where the bullets are hitting. If you have the occasional rifle shot coming near you, you think "hey its a lone rifleman, I could pop out my head and probably take him."

What is not mentioned is that the the first case is just a lone PPSH41 shooting super inaccurately at long range. However, in my experience, people will hide in the first case (because like I said, they think they are under heavy fire) while in the second case they will often expose themselves even more, so they can find where the rifleman is, and kill him. In reality, the SMG would never kill at that range, and the rifleman easily could (even before the person exposed themselves more.)

I will almost always go rifleman, so this will be no exception. However, between smoke, grenades, and pubbing MGers/Rifleman not being what your used to, I think you will quickly find the SMGs will probably dominate. I'm guessing so far mostly clanners have tested this map. While I enjoy Clan matches (and indeed, have fought with and against CoreNA in clan and IC matches), I'm a pubber at heart, not a clammer. I do not disagree with those class loadouts, (I see no reason the Russians shouldn't get whatever the hell they want), I'm just saying it will almost invariably not work out as you expect it too.
 
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#128
Since player's loadouts are in question, I thought I'd jump in and throw a comment. If I'm not mistaken, SVT-40 was out of production by 1943 and by 1945 was most likely a very rare comodity. Thus, having 2 SVTs on a 16 man team is somewhat ahistorical.

The map looks great by the way, I'm very anxious to see the final product.
 
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#130
Maybe both sides should be reduced to 1 Semi-auto. From what I understand, the SVT-40 was more common than the G43 (and of course leaps and bounds more so than the G41.)

Anyways, like you said the Soviets would be given whatever they wanted for this attack cause its so important, but this would also mean within the limited resources the Germans would be given whatever they had, and in both cases more semi-autos than normal is alright.

In a gameplay sense...2 semi-autos is not game-breaking. More and your going to make rifleman feel like sub-class citizens. Less and its going to be an extremely coveted position, and one hopes the players who can handle it get it. If you went either way, up to 3 or down to 1, it would probably be fine.

Remember the commander also has the option of getting a semi-auto in many cases (I don't know about in your particular map. For the Russians, many commanders take the SVT, especially with an abundance of autos. For the germans, if the STG is available they will take that, otherwise the g43 over the mp40 in most cases for the same reasons. Giving the Germans the STG44 for commanders, and to a lesser extent the Russian Commanders the PPS43 (cause imo there is no question its more accurate than the PPSH41, but thats a different thread) will make them less likely to take semi-autos.

I feel like as long as you don't do what *certian people* are doing and think its ok to suddenly give maps 6-7 semi auto slots and then still argue the rifleman is a fine position, then it will be ok.

Which actually does relate to the convo about tripwire server maps with their 50 player loadouts, and rifles being below par. The reasons are heavily map based, but if you give most of the rifleman the option to be semi-autos, they will take it, and often be stupid to not take it (I won't cause I love my rifle, and a few other players will for the most part, but the majority of players will, and are better off if they do, take the semi-auto.

Edit: I just noticed that you said cut them out and not reduce them. That is actually an awesome option for just making the bolts generally useful (besides the competition from the STGs, but at even medium ranges the STG loses accuracy.) I'd say give commanders the option of having them, hell maybe just force commanders to have them, just so they are there, but in very *marginal* quantities.
 
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#133
EvilHobo said:
The Axis Squad Leader is currently given the MP41, and the Russian Squad Leader now can choose from between the PPS43 and the SVT40; the Semi-Auto class for the Allies has been cut, and the Germans have one G43.
Click to expand...
Maybe you should bump up the amount of assault troops for the Russians then. Wouldn't the smg be the most common weapon among soviet troops in 1945, especially in a major assault like this.
 
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#137
You'll see combinations of the two, varying depending on the situation or performance. Chunks of buildings, twisted scraps of metal, charred furniture, and things of that nature will feature in certain parts of the map, but I've unfortunately found myself relying on a lot of terrain "rubble piles." As I type this though I'm looking in to adding some more destruction and, based on how quickly I can get it all done, I should have some screenshots very soon ;)
 
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#138
sweet. keep up the good work mate.

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#139
I've been very long overdue in getting screenshots to you guys. I had hoped to get some during the testing periods to showcase the new uniforms, but we were all too busy either looking for bugs or enjoying the map :). However, I can assure you that they came out looking very good, and perhaps I can show you all some pictures of them later. Anyway, some stuff just to keep you occupied after the media drought...

EDIT: The destruction I was working on prior to making this post didn't present an awesome screenshot, so I had to omit it for the time being. After I work on it some more it might be worth showing.

A German Apartment room


A T-34 burns in the streets of Berlin.


An 88mm Gun surveys the approach to the Moltke Bridge


An obstacle which no infantry without armor support can overcome


One minor but important little thing I felt I should mention is that the tanks now make use of HE as their primary ammunition and AP second, given that you will be confronting no tanks other than the Panther turret. I see this as being more convenient as it does not require the user to have to fire an AP shell and then load an HE, and people too stupid to be able to change their ammunition type can fire HE rounds (I have seen Russian tankers use AP rounds considerably on Gorlitz). So, hopefully, the flow of the fighting should go better now that you needn't worry or forget to change to HE.

Once I get some more performance issues straightened out, I think we might see a beta. :cool:
 
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#140
what kind of terrain mesh are you using? a 512x512 scaled up 2times?
i had a 512 on pariser at first, and to optimise it i used a 256x256 and scaled it up twice. it seems to improve the fps quite a bit. but it seems ur terrain was already scaled up.
is the pak43 gun functionning? is it available for other mappers?
and im really curious to see the new skins!

and have you tried switching the terrain dirt texture with a cobblestone texture if it looks any better?
i noticed that if you paint spots of rubble texture on a cobblestone texture, you create the illusion that there is actually 3d rubble lying on the street. here the terrain looks verry smooth because there is verry little contrast between the 2 terrain tex's.

just my 2 cents! ;)
 
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