Some of those huge maps can handle 100 players without a doubt but i dont think RO can support this much players.
well...we are getting drivable truck for ruskies and then we have HalfTracks for germans, sidecar for both. so the long "walking" distances shouln't be a problem, but then we get to this actual problem: teamwork, as you guys already said you cant force people to do this and that...maybe if youre in a Unit of somekind it might work.
Lolz i'd like to see 10 germans vs. 90 ruskies. Every third of the ruskies should get a rifle, others get just a clip.
lolz or maybe 90 t34 vs. 10 tigers ( lolz i admit i'd be crying under my table if i'd see 90 t34 storming my tiger, jeez, in a freaking PC game! )
100 players servers! FTW!!! (get them working, and i'll buy you a house!)
Lolz i'd like to see 10 germans vs. 90 ruskies. Every third of the ruskies should get a rifle, others get just a clip.
lolz or maybe 90 t34 vs. 10 tigers ( lolz i admit i'd be crying under my table if i'd see 90 t34 storming my tiger, jeez, in a freaking PC game!
) 100 players servers! FTW!!! (get them working, and i'll buy you a house!)
Lolz i'd like to see 10 germans vs. 90 ruskies. Every third of the ruskies should get a rifle, others get just a clip.
That would be insanely fun.
I would like to see larger servers; we should have at least 64 Player Servers like BF1942 & BF2; I would like to see 100 player servers.
I think some maps could handle 100 players, some probably could not, or would have to be redesigned to be able to, or there could just be some select maps with 100 players.
Could IMO: Berezina; Kriegstadt; Leningrad; Pariser Platz and Koenig Platz; Snowy Forest; Kryovyo; some of the other German Berlin maps like Enigma which I played for the first time this evening (hardly a scientific analysis of all the maps).
Does anyone know if the Soviet soldiers were as well armed as they are in RO??; every rifleman has two nades a piece. That could possibly have been true later on, but I think perhaps during the initial Barbarossa invasion, supplies of nades would have been limited, like in Kryovyo and besieged Leningrad. Did supply planes drop them over the city?? So you could limit them in those sort of maps.
I'm not too knowledgeable about the Eastern Front, so I don't know the answers to those questions; the teams are almost evenly well-armed, which makes for better gameplay, but I don't know how realistic or a good simulation that is of historical events.
I have heard there were some situations where Soviet soldiers hardly even had any guns; maybe those are just myths.
Also the even teams stuff is just a video gamer's concept. There are situations where were the enemy overruns your forces. 2 to one, 3 to one odds are common in combat. I'd like to see more maps reflect some dire situations where manpower was low, and there would be "Limited Teams;"one team can only have 24 players and the other side has 40 players. This would really challenge the side with the lower amount of men, and require them to develop strong team work.
As RO is today, I enjoy it a lot, but the fights are on the small side; I'm sure some one could find out how each side was organized, but I believe 25 men would have been just like two squads and a few Non-Commissioned Officiers (NCO's) like Sergeants, Lieutenants etc. That is just a "small potatoes" force.
You could develop the Squad system (I don't know anything about computer game design) by having a system of issuing commands and then subtracting a points from the overall score of score of players who refused to obey the command. That means there would be consequences for disobedience.
Example: Sergeant Schroeder presses C, the command button issuing an order to attack the barn for his squad.
Schroeder sees that Private Schultz doesn't obey.
Schroeder presses the X button and "dishonors" Private Schultz for 3 points for refusing an order. 3 points are subtracted from Private Schultz's overall score for refusing to obey the order.
It would probably just apply to a limited number of commands like "Attack," "Defend," "Follow Me," "Fire."
Otherwise, there is a potential for abuse if you allowed the NCOs to issue any order they wanted like "salute me," or "say I'm great," and dumb stuff like that.
Could something like that be modded into the game?? This would probably affect the game's structure, so you'd probably have to redesign the game to include stuff like this.
My guess is going to be no.
Ok, looked up real briefly the Soviet Army; not really a historical work, but this old WWII board game I have, Avalon Hill's Squad Leader, says the Soviets were usually well armed enough.
This is what combat looked like in the board game Squad Leader (first published 1977), which was a game loosely based on William Craig's Enemy At The Gates. Each cardboard unit starting with a number > 2 had 10 men (a squad); there were also crews (the counter starting with the number 2,), like a tank or artillery crew, which had 4 men. There were also individual Squad Leader NCO and higher officer cardboard counters. That is just part of the board.
I know these two games are different, but I am just trying to show that a 100 player server could provide an interesting and enjoyable gaming experience. I guess that puts more demands on those who are kind enough to pay and upkeep the servers that we play on. We players certainly thank them and appreciate all that they do.
I think some maps could handle 100 players, some probably could not, or would have to be redesigned to be able to, or there could just be some select maps with 100 players.
Could IMO: Berezina; Kriegstadt; Leningrad; Pariser Platz and Koenig Platz; Snowy Forest; Kryovyo; some of the other German Berlin maps like Enigma which I played for the first time this evening (hardly a scientific analysis of all the maps).
Does anyone know if the Soviet soldiers were as well armed as they are in RO??; every rifleman has two nades a piece. That could possibly have been true later on, but I think perhaps during the initial Barbarossa invasion, supplies of nades would have been limited, like in Kryovyo and besieged Leningrad. Did supply planes drop them over the city?? So you could limit them in those sort of maps.
I'm not too knowledgeable about the Eastern Front, so I don't know the answers to those questions; the teams are almost evenly well-armed, which makes for better gameplay, but I don't know how realistic or a good simulation that is of historical events.
I have heard there were some situations where Soviet soldiers hardly even had any guns; maybe those are just myths.
Also the even teams stuff is just a video gamer's concept. There are situations where were the enemy overruns your forces. 2 to one, 3 to one odds are common in combat. I'd like to see more maps reflect some dire situations where manpower was low, and there would be "Limited Teams;"one team can only have 24 players and the other side has 40 players. This would really challenge the side with the lower amount of men, and require them to develop strong team work.
As RO is today, I enjoy it a lot, but the fights are on the small side; I'm sure some one could find out how each side was organized, but I believe 25 men would have been just like two squads and a few Non-Commissioned Officiers (NCO's) like Sergeants, Lieutenants etc. That is just a "small potatoes" force.
You could develop the Squad system (I don't know anything about computer game design) by having a system of issuing commands and then subtracting a points from the overall score of score of players who refused to obey the command. That means there would be consequences for disobedience.
Example: Sergeant Schroeder presses C, the command button issuing an order to attack the barn for his squad.
Schroeder sees that Private Schultz doesn't obey.
Schroeder presses the X button and "dishonors" Private Schultz for 3 points for refusing an order. 3 points are subtracted from Private Schultz's overall score for refusing to obey the order.
It would probably just apply to a limited number of commands like "Attack," "Defend," "Follow Me," "Fire."
Otherwise, there is a potential for abuse if you allowed the NCOs to issue any order they wanted like "salute me," or "say I'm great," and dumb stuff like that.
Could something like that be modded into the game?? This would probably affect the game's structure, so you'd probably have to redesign the game to include stuff like this.
My guess is going to be no.
Ok, looked up real briefly the Soviet Army; not really a historical work, but this old WWII board game I have, Avalon Hill's Squad Leader, says the Soviets were usually well armed enough.
This is what combat looked like in the board game Squad Leader (first published 1977), which was a game loosely based on William Craig's Enemy At The Gates. Each cardboard unit starting with a number > 2 had 10 men (a squad); there were also crews (the counter starting with the number 2,), like a tank or artillery crew, which had 4 men. There were also individual Squad Leader NCO and higher officer cardboard counters. That is just part of the board.
I know these two games are different, but I am just trying to show that a 100 player server could provide an interesting and enjoyable gaming experience. I guess that puts more demands on those who are kind enough to pay and upkeep the servers that we play on. We players certainly thank them and appreciate all that they do.
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|9.SS|Johann Seiter
Guest
Alright no one really heard what i said, prolly gonna have to start a new post but:
We need to finish the Squad Leader "Commands" feature where you can see who is in what squad, etc. etc.
We need to finish the Squad Leader "Commands" feature where you can see who is in what squad, etc. etc.
Practically if we go there we may find some funny results about variety.
E.G. a german rifle squad consisting of 15 riflemen alone was not impossible. Theoretically speaking german one single rifle squad could consist of between 3 and 40 men and even squad leader himself might have been armed only with a rifle. Practically considering german squad system and organisation in general such weird extremes are not exactly impossible. All you need is just some weird "**** happens" situation(s).
Problem is where to draw the line. Yes, this is another extreme "all or nothing"- quality stupid authenticity officer note, but I find the biggest problem being that leading a squad with just some random pubbers might turn out a nightmare most of the time. If you have some dedicated people, why not. It's still insane variety between players.
Mostly, I'm thinking of Leningrad for example with another street going up to the river...to the left for example with the searchlight building in the middle of the map and objectives along the left hand street. Spawn would be centrally located for both sides. Double tanks available.
The Leningrad map would have nearly double the objectives.
BlackDayJuly... add a third parallel field.
Pariserplatz...double the entry points to the final two objectives only.
Konisgplatz and Danzig...already perfect. Keep 50 player only. Don't mess with perfection!
The comment that RO is a squad level game is probably dead on and RO is very good at what it does.
So the question is do we design maps now expecting expansion to 64 player servers or higher? Or stop at 50 and wait for the next break through in Unreal technology that gets us to 100?
The Leningrad map would have nearly double the objectives.
BlackDayJuly... add a third parallel field.
Pariserplatz...double the entry points to the final two objectives only.
Konisgplatz and Danzig...already perfect. Keep 50 player only. Don't mess with perfection!
The comment that RO is a squad level game is probably dead on and RO is very good at what it does.
So the question is do we design maps now expecting expansion to 64 player servers or higher? Or stop at 50 and wait for the next break through in Unreal technology that gets us to 100?
the problem with gaming is that everybody wants to be in the action, as opposed to reality where you probably would want to avoid action. so take konigsplatz, in reality there were probably several hundreds of soldiers on each side on the same area as we play on. but i dont think that the image the real battle would have given would be verry different from what we see ingame.
i mean that with 25 virtual players you can create the illusion of 250 real soldiers, because of the respawns and the natural urge of virtual players to expose themselves to danger like only a few real persons would do.
i tried to create that illusion on pariserplatz by limiting the enterable buildings to a minimum, and by getting everybody to fight in the same area as the battle goes on. you limit the freedom of individuals, but give the impession of a larger force.
so getting 100 players on any actual RO map would be wrong, and end up in complete chaos. you need wider maps to spread out the soldiers, or make the maps more complex by making every single building enterable. but you would end up where you started, because for the individual player the experience would be the same as on a 50 player server. unless you want every map to become a stormassault carnage map
i mean that with 25 virtual players you can create the illusion of 250 real soldiers, because of the respawns and the natural urge of virtual players to expose themselves to danger like only a few real persons would do.
i tried to create that illusion on pariserplatz by limiting the enterable buildings to a minimum, and by getting everybody to fight in the same area as the battle goes on. you limit the freedom of individuals, but give the impession of a larger force.
so getting 100 players on any actual RO map would be wrong, and end up in complete chaos. you need wider maps to spread out the soldiers, or make the maps more complex by making every single building enterable. but you would end up where you started, because for the individual player the experience would be the same as on a 50 player server. unless you want every map to become a stormassault carnage map
Well whatever it is, it needs to allow the player as wide a choice of action as possible, otherwise its like scratching the same itch all the time. What RO has at the moment is a wide variety of single shot, semi auto, auto, LMG, while they aren't true-to-life realistic, at least they they are different from each other (cod 4 ..cough). Choice is the key,but with almost single-minded roles. Then, design the objectives to require a couple of different roles to cap, and Whoa-Nellie teamwork!
The issue needs to be squad control. On hundred player servers you could legitimatly have more than one tier of command (i.e., captains, Lt.'s, Sgt.'s) since a company is theoretically 100 men, and RO is massively scaled down anyway. This would only work on clan based servers, or have a system where if you dissobey a command you get a session ban. As I was saying with the different tiers of command, have a captain who can communicate with the Lt.'s. The captain is only armed with a pistol, and basically sits in the spawn with his map open (btw, add the positions of all the Lt.'s to the minimap) and typing and/or talking to the Lt.'s giving them orders individually. The Lt.'s can ask for arty, armor, or infantry support, but it is the captain who actually decides where that support needs to go. Lt.'s fight on the fron lines (have ~3 of them per team, each one gets LMG and 12 or so guys). They direct the fight by talking to their men and giving them orders as to what to do. The Lt. can request the captain for arty support etc., as mentioned above. He can also talk to his Sgt.'s. Each Lt. could be assigned ~2 sgt.'s. They would be even more front line officers than the Lt.s (who would fight much like the SL does in the current game). The Sgts would be directly responsible for directing the individual actions of the men.
So a scenario would play out something like this: Cap. says to 1st Lt, take the ridge, to 2nd Lt. secure the villiage, and to 3rd Lt. hold this field. 1st Lt. gets to ridge and sees that the enemy are dug in, he radios back asking for arty support and the cap sees that he has 4 strikes and this is a good place to drop one so he calls in the strike. 2nd Lt. takes the villiage fine and tells the cap that they have their objective. 3rd Lt. all of a sudden comes under attack from enemby armor, and requests back up. The cap sees that this is needed and dispatches a tank. Back to first Lt. the arty has softened up the enemy so he orders his men forward. The Sgts bring their men up and issue orders like "cover me" or "suppress that ridge" and so forth.
This would be an awesome game, but it would be difficult to emplement on so many levels. First, the technology for the servers themselves is a way off, second, some people are just idiots who never follow commands, and third, that is a lot of stuff to write into the game's code.
Oh, yes, and to try and make death a more frightening thing, make deaths subtract points from your score, and then make your next post be based upon your score. For instance, they guy with the highest score would be captain next map, the next three higest would be Lt.'s, other high scores would get assault classes, semi auto classes, sniper classes, MG classes, the guys down at the bottom would get the bolt actions. Let the Lt.'s add up to 5 pts. for bravery or to make up for the fact that this guy only died because I needed some sniper bait and ordered him to run into open field.
So a scenario would play out something like this: Cap. says to 1st Lt, take the ridge, to 2nd Lt. secure the villiage, and to 3rd Lt. hold this field. 1st Lt. gets to ridge and sees that the enemy are dug in, he radios back asking for arty support and the cap sees that he has 4 strikes and this is a good place to drop one so he calls in the strike. 2nd Lt. takes the villiage fine and tells the cap that they have their objective. 3rd Lt. all of a sudden comes under attack from enemby armor, and requests back up. The cap sees that this is needed and dispatches a tank. Back to first Lt. the arty has softened up the enemy so he orders his men forward. The Sgts bring their men up and issue orders like "cover me" or "suppress that ridge" and so forth.
This would be an awesome game, but it would be difficult to emplement on so many levels. First, the technology for the servers themselves is a way off, second, some people are just idiots who never follow commands, and third, that is a lot of stuff to write into the game's code.
Oh, yes, and to try and make death a more frightening thing, make deaths subtract points from your score, and then make your next post be based upon your score. For instance, they guy with the highest score would be captain next map, the next three higest would be Lt.'s, other high scores would get assault classes, semi auto classes, sniper classes, MG classes, the guys down at the bottom would get the bolt actions. Let the Lt.'s add up to 5 pts. for bravery or to make up for the fact that this guy only died because I needed some sniper bait and ordered him to run into open field.
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