Poll: Should the AR-15 have a full auto fire select option?

[Ryno5660]

A fair point, I mean, that's why I keep coming back to this thread, after all. I'm pretty sure it's now well-established that Tripwire wanted the Commando to start with a rifle that wasn't full-auto.

Rightly so I think (on-topic discussion ho!), but I'm also a bit of a game masochist in that I see it as a way to make the player think: I can't spray or I'll lose all my ammo. I can't burst fire everything without aiming as that didn't work before.

Adding full auto would, as far as I can see anyway, promote newer players actually using full auto with their AR-15s.

What I'm trying to say is, spawning in with the 2 current firemode options makes a player do what a player always does: Look at what he has to work with, and seeing how it works best.

By the time they can afford a full-auto rifle, they have tested and seen the results a little bit of precision and timing can bring, and can decide what route to take from there.

 

[JagdpantherX]

Neither do you because he's 100% correct.

The M4A1 is used by pretty much all American special forces. Marine Force Recon, Army Special Forces, Navy SEALs, USAF Para-Rescue, USAF Combat Control Teams, and Army Rangers.

Starting last year, all M4s in service were to be sent back to the factory and upgraded to M4A1 specifications and the US Army made the total switch to the auto variant as standard issue.

[url]http://archive.armytimes.com/article/20110430/NEWS/104300326/Improved-carbines-headed-your-way[/URL]

The second bit of this post is totally false. M4's are everywhere and vastly outnumber M4A1s.

 

[mrsirr]

The second bit of this post is totally false. M4's are everywhere and vastly outnumber M4A1s.

Yeah I have no personal military experience. But from what I've heard the military in general is pretty slow to actually circulate new stuff, and what you're saying (and said earlier) backs that up

 

[Cobalty2004]

The amount of bad phyiscs in this is astounding, so I'll just leave a single sentence here for you:

Small rounds traveling faster = more penetrating power than bigger rounds moving slower.

A steel pellet moving at twice the speed of sound will punch through practically anything.

A steel bowling ball tossed against a wall with a casual throw will be lucky to dent it.

But bad physics aside, I know that the police here in my city use the 9mm variant of the AR-15 as part of their arsenal (not that they've needed to use one in actual combat for decades mind.) And I know enough about firearms to know that a rifle cartridge is more likely to punch through a section of wall than a pistol cartridge is.


What I like, though, is how far derailed this thread has gotten. When, exactly, did we start arguing about real life firearms in a game about shooting mutant clone cyborgs?

There is more to ballistics than just speed and weight of the bullet. If its a steel core round, HP, FMJ. Some bullets are polymer tipped... which I don't know much about cuz I dont shoot those....

Also "rifle" and "pistol" cartridges encompass so much that you would be wrong in your statement.

A .17HMR vs a steel core 5.7x28?

 

[AtheosisX]

The AR-15 shouldn't even have the burst fire mode. It's a semi-auto weapon by definition.

 

[mrsirr]

The AR-15 shouldn't even have the burst fire mode. It's a semi-auto weapon by definition.

It's alot of things by definition. "AR-15" is really just what people call a wide variety of firearms that somewhat originated from the AR-15.
But I digress, and so has everyone else. This thread isn't here for people to try to show everyone how much they know about guns. There's an off topic section for that. Besides, at this point people are just trying to one-up eachother to show off. It's getting pretty annoying.

 

[AtheosisX]

Oh! I'd heard something about the .45 being introduced to stop targets who wouldn't stop when hit by 9mm, but that's just info I picked up! Never know 'til you know eh?

I'd love to fire a 1911. 7 rounds with high recoil sounds like it'd be less useful than a 13 round lower recoil handgun, but I bet it'd be a joy to fire!

9mm and .45 caliber rounds were developed only a few years apart. 9mm is German, .45 is American. The .45 wasn't introduced as a replacement for the 9mm. In game terms a .45 pistol would naturally be a more powerful per shot gun but would have fewer rounds in the magazine than the default 9mm. In real life a .45 pistol really isn't an upgrade over a 9mm pistol in any practical way.

It should be noted that what you are referring to in terms of "stopping a target" is actually accurate (though as point out it makes little difference with a hollow point). A .45 round is more likely to knock over a target than a 9mm round as it exerts more force on the target.

 

[AtheosisX]

It's alot of things by definition. "AR-15" is really just what people call a wide variety of firearms that somewhat originated from the AR-15.
But I digress, and so has everyone else. This thread isn't here for people to try to show everyone how much they know about guns. There's an off topic section for that. Besides, at this point people are just trying to one-up eachother to show off. It's getting pretty annoying.

The term AR-15 specifically refers to the semi-auto variant of that particular rifle chassis, so yeah, by definition, it's semi-auto. There are full auto variants out there, but they are rare or are custom alterations generally. There just isn't any reason to expect a 9mm AR-15 to have a full auto or even burst fire mode really.

 

[mrsirr]

The term AR-15 specifically refers to the semi-auto variant of that particular rifle chassis, so yeah, by definition, it's semi-auto.

That's what I'm saying though. The original AR-15 was select-fire. These days people call anything remotely related to the AR-15 and AR-15. The semi-only things sold to civilians are AR-15s. But before that there were select-fire AR-15s.

 

[AtheosisX]

That's what I'm saying though. The original AR-15 was select-fire. These days people call anything remotely related to the AR-15 and AR-15. The semi-only things sold to civilians are AR-15s. But before that there were select-fire AR-15s.

Yeah, but expecting anything other than semi-auto from an AR-15 is basically the same as expecting the 9mm to have burst or full auto modes. Burst fire and full auto 9mm pistols do exist after all. It just seems like going with the most common definition of a weapon makes the most sense, rather than having some special snowflake weapon for no apparent reason.

 

[mrsirr]

Yeah, but expecting anything other than semi-auto from an AR-15 is basically the same as expecting the 9mm to have burst or full auto modes. Burst fire and full auto 9mm pistols do exist after all. It just seems like going with the most common definition of a weapon makes the most sense, rather than having some special snowflake weapon for no apparent reason.

Yeah I'm just not into being picky about nomenclature since there is most always an exception.

 

[RABBIT_1992]

The amount of bad phyiscs in this is astounding, so I'll just leave a single sentence here for you:

Small rounds traveling faster = more penetrating power than bigger rounds moving slower.

You are utterly wrong and spreading misinformation. I teach handgun self defense at my shooting range, I know what I'm talking about.

This is not an opinion. It is a fact, and a well documented one. 5.56x45 has terrible penetration compared to most handgun calibers. The reason is as I stated, it is a much lighter bullet traveling much faster, and will deviate and fragment violently on impact with any hard surface. This is also one of the major terminal ballistic differences between 5.56x45 and 7.62x39, the latter having significantly superior penetration because it is a slower and heavier bullet.

5.56x45 M855 is designed to fragment, that is its wounding characteristic, and its threshold is around 2,700 ft/s for this effect to take place. It is not designed for penetration, and in fact, it is meant to fragment to prevent overpenetration.

Here are a few links that you would have seen had you taken the time to google it.

https://olyarms.com/index.php?optio...tion-testing&catid=13:technical-info&Itemid=3

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...25105-5-56-actually-may-safer-indoor-use.html

9mm vs 5.56x45 sheetrock penetration into ballistic gel, with the 9mm penetrating 9" into the gel and the 5.56 only 6" after traveling through five simulated walls, clearly showing 5.56x45 having inferior urban barrier penetration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0qgQoej5zE

.380 ACP FMJ fully penetrating 19" of ballistic gel and 8" of water
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkscBbMGp5k

9x19 FMJ fully penetrating 16" of ballistic gel and continuing onward with plenty of energy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNfp2LtfTHc

.45ACP FMJ fully penetrating 16" of ballistic gel with plenty of leftover energy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G-txVKnVjY

9x19 FMJ fully penetrating 14" of ballistic gel with plenty of leftover energy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSrlItrsbvs

5.56x45 M855 FMJ failing to penetrate 16" of ballistic gel, fragmenting violently on impact
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRbAfdoU9vY

5.56x45 XM193 FMJ failing to penetrate 19" of ballistic gel, stopping at 12.5" after fragmenting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZPGSiDs5_k

5.56x45 XM193 FMJ stopping after roughly 10" and fragmenting violently
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hJZdtPcVdE

5.56x45 M855 fragmenting violently within 5"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPzxBJSIaGA

5.56x45 V-MAX, a ballstic tip projectile, penetrating only 6" into ballistic gel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCqmclsRQmM

5.56x45 TAP, law enforcement ammo, violently fragmenting into dozens of pieces after 5"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sukRauELwFk

 

[RABBIT_1992]

The second bit of this post is totally false. M4's are everywhere and vastly outnumber M4A1s.

It is not false. Did you read the article?

It didn't say in 2014 all M4s were turned into M4A1s. It said starting in 2014, they were to be sent back for refit and it would take about ten years for it to finish, but the US Army is making the switch to the M4A1 unless new trials bring something new to the table, which will take a lot longer than expected.

 

[mrsirr]

Alright alright
Last warning, this thread is not for arguing about guns. If there is nothing more to say on the original topic I'll lock it.

 

[Cobalty2004]

Alright alright
Last warning, this thread is not for arguing about guns. If there is nothing more to say on the original topic I'll lock it.

I agree. Keep the gun as it is. Rename it though.. it is not a varmint rifle.

Its all about balancing that first gun and I think its perfect for commando.

 

[AtheosisX]

You are utterly wrong and spreading misinformation. I teach handgun self defense at my shooting range, I know what I'm talking about.

This is not an opinion. It is a fact, and a well documented one. 5.56x45 has terrible penetration compared to most handgun calibers. The reason is as I stated, it is a much lighter bullet traveling much faster, and will deviate and fragment violently on impact with any hard surface. This is also one of the major terminal ballistic differences between 5.56x45 and 7.62x39, the latter having significantly superior penetration because it is a slower and heavier bullet.

5.56x45 M855 is designed to fragment, that is its wounding characteristic, and its threshold is around 2,700 ft/s for this effect to take place. It is not designed for penetration, and in fact, it is meant to fragment to prevent overpenetration.

Strictly speaking you are talking about a specific bullet design, not the actual physics of a faster, smaller bullet relative to slower, larger bullet. The physics actually back up what he is saying assuming everything else is equal. Actually to be specific it depends on the total mass/energy of projectile to determine its penetrating power against a target, assuming everything else (bullet shape, bullet material, etc) is equal.

 

[mrsirr]

Strictly speaking you are talking about a specific bullet design, not the actual physics of a faster, smaller bullet relative to slower, larger bullet. The physics actually back up what he is saying assuming everything else is equal. Actually to be specific it depends on the total mass/energy of projectile to determine its penetrating power against a target, assuming everything else (bullet shape, bullet material, etc) is equal.

Yes, being slower and heavier does not in itself make a bullet better at penetrating barriers.

But I'm fine with the gun the way it is. Though I tend to just use semi on everything.
Come to think of it I don't even play commando that much so I dunno how useful my opinion on it is.

 

[Ducckk]

It's not an AR-15

It's not an AR-15

I think you need to rename the gun before you make it fully automatic.

The AR-15 is a semi-automatic, civilian version of the M4/M16. Beyond that, since it is chambered in 9mm it should technically be called an AR-9.

 

[mrsirr]

I think you need to rename the gun before you make it fully automatic.

AR-15 is a broad term. I think this was discussed just upwards some.

 

[RABBIT_1992]

Strictly speaking you are talking about a specific bullet design, not the actual physics of a faster, smaller bullet relative to slower, larger bullet. The physics actually back up what he is saying assuming everything else is equal. Actually to be specific it depends on the total mass/energy of projectile to determine its penetrating power against a target, assuming everything else (bullet shape, bullet material, etc) is equal.

I know I am speaking of specific bullet design, but a larger and slower bullet still typically has superior penetration than a lighter and faster projectile. The physics backs this up. A heavier bullet has more momentum and can transfer more energy to penetrate further than a lighter bullet, which has less momentum and therefore less energy to convert into penetration through material.

7.62x39 M67 is a much heavier and slower projectile than 5.56x45 M855 and has significantly better barrier penetration capabilities.

Veerdin is just plain wrong, period. 5.56x45 is better suited for CQB for the sole fact that it will not overpenetrate to the extent a PCC will.

I think you need to rename the gun before you make it fully automatic.

The AR-15 is a semi-automatic, civilian version of the M4/M16. Beyond that, since it is chambered in 9mm it should technically be called an AR-9.

Like mrsirr and others have said, AR-15 is just the platform, not a specific gun. Think of it like this: AR-15 is to the M16 as fruit is to an apple.

All M16s are AR-15s, but not all AR-15s are M16s. All apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples.

BUT ANYWAYS....back to the topic

I really don't have that much of a problem with a PCC as a Commando weapon, nor the part about it having a burst fire trigger group. If you made it semi and auto, it would be too similar to the SA80, at least to me. If Tripwire changed it to semi and auto, then I would probably never buy the SA80 and just keep the AR-15 until I could afford the AK-12.