Poll: Should the AR-15 have a full auto fire select option?

[Gregory Corso]

It's just a matter of practicality, really. Could you make a better weapon suited to the SMG role? Sure, but then you'd have to set up new tooling and production lines, spend years testing and ironing out 'teething' issues that always crop up with new designs, and supply training for a completely new manual of arms for using and maintaining the new weapons.

When you consider all that, it makes a lot more sense from a logistical point of view to just adapt an AR or an AK or whatever to 9mm and go about your merry way

 

[Trotskygrad]

It's just a matter of practicality, really. Could you make a better weapon suited to the SMG role? Sure, but then you'd have to set up new tooling and production lines, spend years testing and ironing out 'teething' issues that always crop up with new designs, and supply training for a completely new manual of arms for using and maintaining the new weapons.

When you consider all that, it makes a lot more sense from a logistical point of view to just adapt an AR or an AK or whatever to 9mm and go about your merry way

yeah even the "classic" SMG design of the MP5 is an adapted G3.

and it replaced the Uzi, a purpose built 9mm SMG

 

[Cobalty2004]

I said M4 not M4A1, get some glasses if you can't tell the difference between 2 characters and 4.



cost and training? duh

You know M4A1 is all anyone ever uses right?

 

[Trotskygrad]

You know M4A1 is all anyone ever uses right?

you clearly don't know anyone in the actual army...

 

[Cobalty2004]

It's just a matter of practicality, really. Could you make a better weapon suited to the SMG role? Sure, but then you'd have to set up new tooling and production lines, spend years testing and ironing out 'teething' issues that always crop up with new designs, and supply training for a completely new manual of arms for using and maintaining the new weapons.

When you consider all that, it makes a lot more sense from a logistical point of view to just adapt an AR or an AK or whatever to 9mm and go about your merry way

You do realize that BETTER WEAPONS that are suited to the SMG role actually do exist and are fully utilized throughout the world?

Sig, HK, CZ are just three of many more manufactures that have dedicated SMGs for pistol caliber rounds.

CZ just released a civvy version of this the Scorpion. CZ is working to get approval to allow people to SBR it... which would be so badass... I can feel the drain on my wallet now....

Also having built two AR15s for myself there are parts that aren't compatible with a .223 AR such as the lower receiver (unless you buy a magwell adapter like some scrublord), upper receiver (the shell deflector needs to be moved for 9mm), bolt carrier group and buffer. The barrel and muzzy device are a given.

 

[Cobalty2004]

you clearly don't know anyone in the actual army...

Got me there. I lose, gg.

 

[JagdpantherX]

I think the current semi/burst AR15 is just perfect for a tier 1. It gives the weapon a good flavor in the mix. Yeah its not so realistic for someone to have that weapon over AR15's in the super common 5.56 caliber though, but KF isn't exactly too realistic.

You know M4A1 is all anyone ever uses right?

M4A1's are quite rare. When I was a civilian I thought all the frequently deployed infantry units would have it like you are thinking right now, but once I got here I realized that was a very distant dream. Maybe I will get one in a year.

Fun Fact: Not once have I been given a acceptable time to use burst on the M4. Burst fire is like taboo here. Might as well be using AR15's that civilians use.

 

[FluffyNinja]

Well I think the fire mode only makes statistically changes if you have certain skills active. Personally I just use the AR in semi, so it doesn't bother me. Though it is kinda weird that it has a 20 rd mag with 3 rd burst, so your last burst will only be two rounds. Just weird.

Until you get extended Mags. :3

I'm fine with either 3 round or full auto. Not that big of a game changer for the AR-15.

 

[Trotskygrad]

Got me there. I lose, gg.

yeah you do.

everyone I know in the army, in various branches (aviation, armor, cav, infantry) say that they were given a M4.

One literally said he never saw a full auto trigger group

 

[Veerdin]

You do realize that BETTER WEAPONS that are suited to the SMG role actually do exist and are fully utilized throughout the world?

Sig, HK, CZ are just three of many more manufactures that have dedicated SMGs for pistol caliber rounds.

CZ just released a civvy version of this the Scorpion. CZ is working to get approval to allow people to SBR it... which would be so badass... I can feel the drain on my wallet now....

Also having built two AR15s for myself there are parts that aren't compatible with a .223 AR such as the lower receiver (unless you buy a magwell adapter like some scrublord), upper receiver (the shell deflector needs to be moved for 9mm), bolt carrier group and buffer. The barrel and muzzy device are a given.

In the guns world, "better" is often a subjective term.

Many people favor the AR-15's SMG variant for one, very big reason:

Familiarity.

The AR-15 platform and most of its derivatives is one of the most well-known and often used gun platforms. At very least in the U.S, if not across several other countries.

What is easier? Teaching an entire division of the army how to hold, fire, arm, reload, disassemble, clean, fix and reassemble an entirely new weapons platform? Or just handing them something they already know inside and out and saying "Here, it's like the other gun, but with a smaller cartridge."

Military and enforcement and, well, anybody who uses firearms in a professional sense needs to know more than the basic "point it here and squeeze the trigger" bit. Any idiot can pick up a gun and shoot it with very little training. But to actually maintain and care for a firearm? To know what to do with it if you're on the field and suddenly it stops working? To know how to safely handle it and how to strip it down, or build it back up? That kind of stuff requires training. Lots of it.

I know that, at least here in Australia, our servicemen are expected to be able to disassemble, check, and reassemble their service rifles (which, for the record, look like this) while blindfolded. And they get timed doing it, to boot.

If you're a commanding officer in charge of handing out new weapons to your army, you can't just palm off something they've never used before and say "go wild, lads!" If the option is there to give them what they need (and yes, sometimes, they do specifically need a 9mm cartridge in a carbine setup) then you damn well take that option because that's several weeks and a whole bucketload of money saved on time and training.

 

[RABBIT_1992]

Theme wise, it fits the bill because the 9mm variant is often used - again - in urban and suburban environments to minimize collateral damage. There are many police and law enforcement agencies that specifically avoid larger, more powerful cartridge sizes because they are so powerful. When it's your job to protect people, it's kind of hard to carry wound a firearm that could easily punch through the wall of a house and kill somebody's aunt in the next room over should you happen to miss.

You really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm quite certain your only information comes from what you see on the Military Channel and Wikipedia.

Very, very few police forces in the world, use 9mm AR-15s.

Your point about police forces not wanting to use larger cartridges is an absolute lie too and the same goes for you claiming 5.56x45 from an AR-15 will punch through more walls than 9x19.

That alone proves that you have zero clue about firearms. 5.56x45 has horrible barrier penetration and 9x19 will go through far more walls than it will. This is simple ballistics and a well documented fact. Pistol calibers fire significantly heavier bullets at a slower velocity, which have more momentum that can punch through walls. An M855 bullet from an AR-15 travels almost three times the speed but weighs 1/3 as much, and will fragment violently on impact with any hard surface. Shooting an AR-15 in 5.56x45 indoors is far more safer for collateral damage than an AR-15 in 9x19.

I won't even go into your earlier points about the AR because it's too much nonsense to sift through. One of your posts mentioned how most AR-15s are semi and burst for civilians to own, which is an outright lie. A civilian cannot go into a store and buy a burst fire firearm because it violates the 1986 Hughes Amendment which was added to the 1968 Gun Control Act. A burst fire firearm is classified as an automatic weapon by the NFA and illegal to own without a mountain of paperwork and piles of money and a months long waiting period.

 

[RABBIT_1992]

you clearly don't know anyone in the actual army...

Neither do you because he's 100% correct.

The M4A1 is used by pretty much all American special forces. Marine Force Recon, Army Special Forces, Navy SEALs, USAF Para-Rescue, USAF Combat Control Teams, and Army Rangers.

Starting last year, all M4s in service were to be sent back to the factory and upgraded to M4A1 specifications and the US Army made the total switch to the auto variant as standard issue.

http://archive.armytimes.com/article/20110430/NEWS/104300326/Improved-carbines-headed-your-way

 

[Rainydaykid]

I played for the first time yesterday. I really didn't care for the SMG. The recoil is too high to put a whole burst in someone's head, and the iron sights are too cramped and cluttered. I ended up just using my 9mm until I bought a bullpup.

Might change my mind later as I use it more, but for now, I think it sucks. I get rid of it as soon as I can.

 

[Rainydaykid]

Indeed, and I know the .45 round is a larger meaner animal, and could make someone sit down where a 9mm couldn't.

Buut out of 90rpm and 1200rpm, only 1 or 2 of those need to slam home to put your soft target out of commission. Technically you'll be a force to be reckoned with when you're rocking either.

That being said I'd choose a .45 handgun over a 9mm, despite the reduced capacity. I just can't turn down bigger bullets or more stopping power.

EDIT: I said handgun just because I can tell the difference between single shots better and appreciate how everything feels more.

Not really a big difference at all between 9mm and .45 with modern hollowpoint ammo. I've been shooting for years, and studied it significantly. I prefer a 9mm in my carry handgun because I have less recoil for faster followup shots, and if you are shooting someone with a handgun in real life, it is going to probably require multiple hits to put them down, with standard service calibers.

As far as if you are limited to only FMJ rounds, then yeah, .45 is better.

 

[Ryno5660]

Not really a big difference at all between 9mm and .45 with modern hollowpoint ammo. I've been shooting for years, and studied it significantly. I prefer a 9mm in my carry handgun because I have less recoil for faster followup shots, and if you are shooting someone with a handgun in real life, it is going to probably require multiple hits to put them down, with standard service calibers.

As far as if you are limited to only FMJ rounds, then yeah, .45 is better.

Oh! I'd heard something about the .45 being introduced to stop targets who wouldn't stop when hit by 9mm, but that's just info I picked up! Never know 'til you know eh?

I'd love to fire a 1911. 7 rounds with high recoil sounds like it'd be less useful than a 13 round lower recoil handgun, but I bet it'd be a joy to fire!

 

[Veerdin]

You really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm quite certain your only information comes from what you see on the Military Channel and Wikipedia.

Very, very few police forces in the world, use 9mm AR-15s.

Your point about police forces not wanting to use larger cartridges is an absolute lie too and the same goes for you claiming 5.56x45 from an AR-15 will punch through more walls than 9x19.

That alone proves that you have zero clue about firearms. 5.56x45 has horrible barrier penetration and 9x19 will go through far more walls than it will. This is simple ballistics and a well documented fact. Pistol calibers fire significantly heavier bullets at a slower velocity, which have more momentum that can punch through walls. An M855 bullet from an AR-15 travels almost three times the speed but weighs 1/3 as much, and will fragment violently on impact with any hard surface. Shooting an AR-15 in 5.56x45 indoors is far more safer for collateral damage than an AR-15 in 9x19.

I won't even go into your earlier points about the AR because it's too much nonsense to sift through. One of your posts mentioned how most AR-15s are semi and burst for civilians to own, which is an outright lie. A civilian cannot go into a store and buy a burst fire firearm because it violates the 1986 Hughes Amendment which was added to the 1968 Gun Control Act. A burst fire firearm is classified as an automatic weapon by the NFA and illegal to own without a mountain of paperwork and piles of money and a months long waiting period.

The amount of bad phyiscs in this is astounding, so I'll just leave a single sentence here for you:

Small rounds traveling faster = more penetrating power than bigger rounds moving slower.

A steel pellet moving at twice the speed of sound will punch through practically anything.

A steel bowling ball tossed against a wall with a casual throw will be lucky to dent it.

But bad physics aside, I know that the police here in my city use the 9mm variant of the AR-15 as part of their arsenal (not that they've needed to use one in actual combat for decades mind.) And I know enough about firearms to know that a rifle cartridge is more likely to punch through a section of wall than a pistol cartridge is.


What I like, though, is how far derailed this thread has gotten. When, exactly, did we start arguing about real life firearms in a game about shooting mutant clone cyborgs?

 

[Ryno5660]

What I like, though, is how far derailed this thread has gotten. When, exactly, did we start arguing about real life firearms in a game about shooting mutant clone cyborgs?

To be fair this game will attract gun nuts like myself and others. Also, I'm not honestly sure what else can be discussed in detail about the ingame AR-15's fire selector.

 

[Veerdin]

To be fair this game will attract gun nuts like myself and others. Also, I'm not honestly sure what else can be discussed in detail about the ingame AR-15's fire selector.

A fair point, I mean, that's why I keep coming back to this thread, after all. I'm pretty sure it's now well-established that Tripwire wanted the Commando to start with a rifle that wasn't full-auto.

 

[Chosen_1]

My input:

1. AR-15 should be in standard 5.56x45mm, not 9mm.
2. As an "AR-15" and not an "M16/M4", it should be semi-auto only.
3. The military 3 round burst fires all 3 rounds with one trigger pull, you can't fire just 1 or 2 rounds, so if burst is going to stay it is fine how it is.
4. If the weapon stays in 9mm it should have 32 round mags.

 

[Rainydaykid]

Oh! I'd heard something about the .45 being introduced to stop targets who wouldn't stop when hit by 9mm, but that's just info I picked up! Never know 'til you know eh?

I'd love to fire a 1911. 7 rounds with high recoil sounds like it'd be less useful than a 13 round lower recoil handgun, but I bet it'd be a joy to fire!

They were using .38's, not even .38 special. It was the Mora(not spelled right) some tribe in the Philipines. I don't remember exactly when. The 9mm and .45 ACP are pretty close to the same age, the 9mm came out in 1902.

All handguns pretty much suck for effectiveness. Obviously I'm not talking about crazy stuff like .500 S&W, but standard calibers, .380 to .45 ACP.

I'd rather have 13 rounds, or 15 in my case. I'd rather be shooting than reloading in a fight. 1911's don't have heavy recoil. But they are heavier and hold less ammo.

You would be better picking a modern polymer framed semi auto than a 1911. 1911's are good, and they have a great history, but there is much better handgun technology out there nowadays. People can argue all day long, but for actual effectiveness, I'd rather have a lighter weapon that holds more ammo.