Points (score) deciding winner of map is wrong! [Merged]

[Zetsumei]

The problem is points is a wrong kind of measurement in public games aswell..

And once again mgs are not the problem of it they were an example.

 

[Solo4114]

good to have people think things to an end

"disallow wins by MG resupply" that has to be my favorite.
Beside removing the win by points at all which you listed further down your post, how are you supposed to do that? Count the times an MG gets resupplied?

There's got to be some way to track it. Plus, if it's happening in the way that people allege it's being abused, it'll be pretty friggin' obvious. If all of a sudden you see one team getting 45 points for resupplies at once, that'd seem to me to be a rather glaring exploit.

If the league doesn't care how you win, or if they don't want to take the time to do this, then it's up to the players to decide whether that league is really worth playing in.

yeah, we could also determine who wins by judging who did the better looking kills. Like drop outs are something that could or should decide a winner

Spare me the attitude. I'll explain, in case you don't see how a player dropping out before the round's end affects things. You've got two teams with 6 guys a piece. Each guy has his own score. At the end of the round, when captures and reinforcements are tied and points becomes the deciding factor, the total points of the team are added up. If a player drops out prior to this, his points don't get counted. So yeah, a player dropping out WOULD affect the outcome of a match.

Even without the points as the deciding factor, one team a player down could absolutely affect the outcome of a map. That's one less guy killing enemies, one less guy to cover a cap zone, etc.

Do I understand you right that you volunteer to create such a mutator?

No, you misunderstand me. I'm saying that if people are that bothered about this, they can make the mutator themselves. Frankly, I'm not in a clan, and I don't play ladder matches. I don't think it's TWI's job to do this, although it'd certainly be a nice bonus if they did. As with many requests made to fix this or add that, if players want it that badly, the great thing about the Unreal Engine is that you can make your own modifications to it. So, while we can all wish that TWI would fulfill every player request, if they don't, there's nothing stopping motivated communities from doing it themselves.

As REZ said, this is a problem that primarily affects clans/ladders. While I think it's lame that people would use a tactic like this at all, and while I do see it as a problem, it's honestly NOT a big deal for public games. If I'm playing on a random pub server and a team wins by using this tactic (Which would seem pretty far-fetched, given the level of coordination needed to pull it off), I think pretty much everyone knows who were the winners of the map and who were the losers. If you have to play dirty to win, you can't exactly call it a "win" in my book. So, the actual outcome means squat to me. I'll know that we either fought them to a draw or had them beat, and they'll know they had to resort to cheapass tactics like this to make the screen say "[Team] Wins!!" BFD.

 

[[TW]DrGuppy]

On the above, how do you know it is a bug? Maybe it was designed that way. This way it may encourage players to give ammo to someone with the MG. Otherwise, many players may go to themselves. "Oh, why should I bother, someone will just beat me to it (supplying mg'er), so why should I waste my time searching all over for the guy with the MG?"

The reason I think this is a bug is because it only happens to one team, the Germans. If it was designed to work this way the Russians would start with 5/6 drums so they could be resupplied at the start as well. Currently the Axis can get at least 10 points per MGer right at the start of the round while the Allies cannot. I doubt it was designed like this on purpose.

Back to the main topic though I think reinforcements would be better than score for breaking ties.

 

[Zetsumei]

There's got to be some way to track it. Plus, if it's happening in the way that people allege it's being abused, it'll be pretty friggin' obvious. If all of a sudden you see one team getting 45 points for resupplies at once, that'd seem to me to be a rather glaring exploit.

If the league doesn't care how you win, or if they don't want to take the time to do this, then it's up to the players to decide whether that league is really worth playing in.

The league ppl care about this problem thats why they post about it.

The thing is you've clearly never been an admin in a league or ladder, because rules must be easy to check by admins and easy to look after. Admins are people and they should only come in play with real problems.

Nobody ever said that mging is being abused and nobody said that mgs are the problem you should read, The problem is that easy point things like resupplying mgs or the disconnection of a player can change the outcome of a match with the current ingame system.

Spare me the attitude. I'll explain, in case you don't see how a player dropping out before the round's end affects things. You've got two teams with 6 guys a piece. Each guy has his own score. At the end of the round, when captures and reinforcements are tied and points becomes the deciding factor, the total points of the team are added up. If a player drops out prior to this, his points don't get counted. So yeah, a player dropping out WOULD affect the outcome of a match.

Even without the points as the deciding factor, one team a player down could absolutely affect the outcome of a map. That's one less guy killing enemies, one less guy to cover a cap zone, etc.

Ever though that a player might justs dropout the game and connect a minute after (as the game gets paused usually to wait for a return...). Sure a dropout will be count as -1 reinforcement but he can then continue to play a droupout can mean -100 in score thats quite a difference if you ask me...

No, you misunderstand me. I'm saying that if people are that bothered about this, they can make the mutator themselves. Frankly, I'm not in a clan, and I don't play ladder matches. I don't think it's TWI's job to do this, although it'd certainly be a nice bonus if they did. As with many requests made to fix this or add that, if players want it that badly, the great thing about the Unreal Engine is that you can make your own modifications to it. So, while we can all wish that TWI would fulfill every player request, if they don't, there's nothing stopping motivated communities from doing it themselves.

As REZ said, this is a problem that primarily affects clans/ladders. While I think it's lame that people would use a tactic like this at all, and while I do see it as a problem, it's honestly NOT a big deal for public games. If I'm playing on a random pub server and a team wins by using this tactic (Which would seem pretty far-fetched, given the level of coordination needed to pull it off), I think pretty much everyone knows who were the winners of the map and who were the losers. If you have to play dirty to win, you can't exactly call it a "win" in my book. So, the actual outcome means squat to me. I'll know that we either fought them to a draw or had them beat, and they'll know they had to resort to cheapass tactics like this to make the screen say "[Team] Wins!!" BFD.

The tiebrake system is only used when both teams got equal amount of caps. So its not that clear to see who won the match.

Indeed its mainly needed for clan matches because in public matches everybody stopped caring about winning a long time ago... To exploit things like the mg all you need is 2 people not hard to do that i must say..

And about making a mutator, worluk knows more about that than you.

Beside it is a real flaw in the game, that like all flaws is more visible in competetive team gaming. But its there in public games aswell, its just that nobody cares about winning again.

I personally think that in fixes the most important things are:

Gamestopping bugs
Equality for allies and axis to play in a map.
Gameplay problems
Game enhancements.

I'd say its a pretty big bug, beside that most games incuding ro live partly on clans, its clans etc that keep games alive. You can easilly put half of all RO servers to clans/realism. There is a big chance that your favourite servers are indeed unit/clan servers.

 

[Solo4114]

The league ppl care about this problem thats why they post about it.

The thing is you've clearly never been an admin in a league or ladder, because rules must be easy to check by admins and easy to look after. Admins are people and they should only come in play with real problems.

I haven't been a ladder admin, no, but I have been and am an admin in a regular server. We deal with all kinds of crap. It comes with the territory.

If there's a way to track how often and when these points are accumulating, then that shouldn't be that big a deal for an admin. If there's a dispute as to who won the match, the admin checks the info and makes a ruling.

Nobody ever said that mging is being abused and nobody said that mgs are the problem you should read, The problem is that easy point things like resupplying mgs or the disconnection of a player can change the outcome of a match with the current ingame system.

Actually they did, at least at the start of the thread. The issue is larger than simply the MG thing, but it was the MG issue that was pointed out.

Ever though that a player might justs dropout the game and connect a minute after (as the game gets paused usually to wait for a return...). Sure a dropout will be count as -1 reinforcement but he can then continue to play a droupout can mean -100 in score thats quite a difference if you ask me...

I recognize this. And it is indeed a problem. If the system can't work for clan play as designed, then the system needs to change or the clans need to adapt. If one side gets more points because (a) they abused the MG bug, or (b) the other side had a player drop out, then that side shouldn't be credited with the win. Just because "Allies win!" shows up on the screen at the end doesn't mean you have to accept it. If a ladder wants to make it so that points aren't the tiebreaker, just look at the reinforcements at the end of the round. Whoever has more wins, regardless of what the game says.

The tiebrake system is only used when both teams got equal amount of caps. So its not that clear to see who won the match.

Yes, I get how the tiebreak system works, or at least how it should work. What I'm getting at is that if the system defaults to points, then -- at least in the absence of any change from TWI or the community at large -- you've got to adapt and say "Ok, obviously this is broken and we agree it shouldn't be the tiebreaker. We're looking at reinforcements only and to hell with what the message is at the end of the round." THAT is proven as simply as taking a screenshot of the scoreboard at the end of the round.

Indeed its mainly needed for clan matches because in public matches everybody stopped caring about winning a long time ago... To exploit things like the mg all you need is 2 people not hard to do that i must say..

And about making a mutator, worluk knows more about that than you.

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. I have no idea. If it can't be fixed via mutator, fine and dandy. At that point, TWI should probably step in, yeah. But if it can be fixed by a mutator, then the question becomes (A) do you want to wait around for TWI to get round to fixing this, or (B) is it worth the expenditure of time when there's things that can be done to enhance the game as it is played by the entire RO community, rather than by a subset of the community. Only the devs can answer B, I guess, but the community can sure answer A.

Beside it is a real flaw in the game, that like all flaws is more visible in competetive team gaming. But its there in public games aswell, its just that nobody cares about winning again.

I personally think that in fixes the most important things are:

Gamestopping bugs
Equality for allies and axis to play in a map.
Gameplay problems
Game enhancements.

I'd say its a pretty big bug, beside that most games incuding ro live partly on clans, its clans etc that keep games alive. You can easilly put half of all RO servers to clans/realism. There is a big chance that your favourite servers are indeed unit/clan servers.

I agree with you that major problems should be fixed. I'm not sure if I'd call this a major problem, though, given how often it rears its head. Aside from Baksan Valley and Barashka, I can't recall any official maps that are head-on maps which can end in stalemates. I may not be remembering them all, though. What's more, this would only apply in situations where the tiebreaker system is activated. If the caps are uneven then this issue is moot. So, again, I'm not sure if I'd say this is a major gamebreaking problem.

I do recognize that clans make up a significant portion of the RO community, and that a lot of good servers are clan servers, but you can say the same about many of the RO subsets. "Without infantry-only/tankers/the actively adminned servers/etc., RO wouldn't be what it is that we all enjoy..." I'm not trying to diminish the importance of clans, I'm just saying that they're not the only dog in the fight for development time.

Given the limited circumstances in which THIS problem can happen, I'm not sure if it warrants dev attention, IF the problem can be solved other ways. Now, if the devs have the time and the inclination to fix it, that's awesome and I think they should. But I think we have different views of how severe this problem is, and certainly we have different views of how pervasive the problem is.

 

[Zetsumei]

I'm not going to respond to every bit because this will become one mess of quoting, maybe a mod can clean up everything .

But atm the order is

Caps, Points, Reinf apparently.

If everything is in an order it can probably be swapped around but i know nothting about that. Worluk or Ramm would probably know that.

The ladder community is not more important for the actual game than other players. But clans are important for the longlivety of a game. At some point usually public players get bored of publicplay. A group you play with clan or unit, gives stability to players so they will stay faster.

Since the original post the MG problem was given as an example of how it could be exploited.

Although not alot of maps have it, but basically the tiebraker system was implented to brake the ties on barashka and baksanvalley. It was important enough to put that in, now its been showed that it can be exploited easilly with some examples.

 

[mat69]

(B) is it worth the expenditure of time when there's things that can be done to enhance the game as it is played by the entire RO community, rather than by a subset of the community. Only the devs can answer B, I guess, but the community can sure answer A.

I have to disagree there, everyone who looked that up in the uc-file sees that it would be a work of probably a few minutes for the devs to add an ini-option and no, not months of testing would be needed there.
Yet this could help the clan scene. And clans as mods are very important for a game.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

The reason I think this is a bug is because it only happens to one team, the Germans. If it was designed to work this way the Russians would start with 5/6 drums so they could be resupplied at the start as well. Currently the Axis can get at least 10 points per MGer right at the start of the round while the Allies cannot. I doubt it was designed like this on purpose.

Back to the main topic though I think reinforcements would be better than score for breaking ties.

Ahhh, I must have misread. If that is the case, it could very well be....

 

[Monstar]

Important thread, it should be rated so the Devs don't miss it.

 

[Solo4114]

But atm the order is

Caps, Points, Reinf apparently.

If THAT's what's going on then yes, that should absolutely be fixed. There's no reason it should be working this way. Reinforcements are FAR more important than points and far more representative of how well a team did. While it's not a "tiebreaker" map, on Berezina, say, if you as the Russians score 1040 points (IE: from kills mostly), but the Germans still have

The ladder community is not more important for the actual game than other players. But clans are important for the longlivety of a game. At some point usually public players get bored of publicplay. A group you play with clan or unit, gives stability to players so they will stay faster.

Since the original post the MG problem was given as an example of how it could be exploited.

Although not alot of maps have it, but basically the tiebraker system was implented to brake the ties on barashka and baksanvalley. It was important enough to put that in, now its been showed that it can be exploited easilly with some examples.

I agree completely, and if the issue is as you described (I thought it was in a different order and the MG exploit was simply the way in which people were breaking the tie), then this needs fixing quickly. I would hope this is a simple fix, but I don't know for certain. If it is and can be dealt with quickly, then I'm all for it. It might even be worth releasing a "hotfix" patch.

 

[djsatane]

No, no.. no blame is being placed.. I just dont expect TW to change this, and at the same time I think it's well within the RO:L admins abilities (with some member input if needed) to come up with a solution. I dont see it as anyones fault, and I dont deny that the problem is there just in case I came across that way.

An end of round screenshot does show the timer, reinforcements, and scores. If the tiebreak was dependent on reinforcements then that screenie will show who won regardless of what the 'winning message' says on the screen. Same if you called it a tie. The screenshot will show that. New clans have a resposibility to know the rules before participating, no?

Since this game is basically online only keeping the online communities happy is very important. I would hope to see at least a flag or variable added on server side that either alters or changes scoring/mg situation. This should be done in mutator specifically for the league or maybe even an addition thrown into game by Tripwire.

 

[MILK]

players interested in this problem see here http://www.redorchestragame.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17697

 

[FatPartizan]

+5 scores MG AMMO ?

+5 scores MG AMMO ?

Yesterday , saw the guy which used such tactics. He run from resp , gave the machine gunner ammo , run to forward, him killed, all repeated. The conveyor. 150 or more scores .

It needs to be changed.

 

[Yellonet]

Yeah, it should be at most 1 point.
But personally I don't see the point in rewarding an important act with points at all.
I do it because it makes my chanses of staying alive and winning higher, and because I want others to do the same when I have the MG.
Anyway you see it. 5 points is waaaay too much.

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

Well, if that is his idea of fun .... hopefully his foolishness didn't waste all your teams reinforcements.

The score doesn't matter in who wins the map anyway. Probably he has some left over 'programming' from playing other simpler games where one's high score matters in victory or that other people care more.

When used properly, MGs can be very helpful to a team. This means they need ammo and if giving a player 5 points for doing so encourages it, I say it is a good thing even if the points in the end don't matter. I see no real reason to change something because of one or two fools.....just my opinion.

 

[Plaid13]

it is kinda dumb but people here will throw a fit when they read this. mostly because someones mentioned it before and apparently reading it over is too much work.

But score isnt really important anyway. I would like to see it changed so it didnt give you any points but still had it counted on the scorepage somehow just with a resupply count maybe. just to show that you are trying to help out the MGer.

 

[Yellonet]

It would be better if you'd get rewarded for kills that the MGer makes with "your" ammo, not just for supplying ammo that won't be used properly.
Perhaps you could get 1 point per 3 kills that the MGer makes with the ammo that you supplied.

 

[cooperr]

It would be better you dont recieve any points for that.. Look at the map baskanvally.. people giving the mg constat ammo. They drop the gun pick it up and leave the ammo drums.. luckly only some.. wnbe teams pick the map as home map.. because they cant win on decent maps.

 

[DirtyRat]

LOL this isn't BF2 where they are gonna get some resupply badge! Nobbaz

 

[Yellonet]

LOL this isn't BF2 where they are gonna get some resupply badge! Nobbaz

And that's why points for resupplying needs to go, to prevent point whoring.
Although you aren't supposed to care about points, I can imagine that it would be quite annoying to be outclassed (in points) by some moron just going back and forth dying and resupplying. If nothing else it makes people believe that the game is more about personal points than it actually is.