Please Nerf the Matriarch and buff the SWAT

[Barot8]

A lot of players would prefer harder bosses. Not new or mid level players. Maybe adjust the bosses for difficulty level. I've never been a fan of "we'll just make everything a bullet sponge" in games. I'd like to see better ai tactics rather than just running full tilt at players.

 

[Breadsticks_]

I think when it comes to if a boss is "difficult" it does depend on a few things. People tend to say abomination is super easy, and on most cases that is correct, but when it was released with Krampus' Lair, the boss arena was super tight and narrow. This made the minions even more of a threat (this was pre-buff aswell) other maps that follow this mentality is nightmare, the descent, Diesector, Catacombs, Lockdown, Santa's Workshop. However when you play a map like Hostile Grounds, Burning Paris etc, the threat is basically gone since there is so much space to work with and the Abomination's speciality comes from such cramped spaces and being able to completely flood the room.
This tactic can't be said for Patty since he will excel in taking advantage of the open spaces; his machine gun and rockets make good work of that and the artillery strike forces players out of cover, however in a tight and cramped arena, his machine gun would completely miss that one berserker that is hugging Patty.
But for the Matriarch, it is a combination of the both, being able to fight her on maps like Ashwood Asylum, Hellmark Station, Outpost would be better for you since her elec shots asks for good spacing, but the laser demands quick & sharp movements around her to keep out of harms way. When the weapons fail and she gets more aggresive, those tactics fall apart and you're more invited to be in the open and have more free movement as her attacks are more limited. (However the EDARs can go rot in a corner, why were they even introduced in the first instance). Other than the questionable EDARs, the Matriarch is just fine as she is besides her really stale animations.

Other than which boss you get given on which map, it does come due in part with perk selection; Commando can spot out Patty and Matty, Demo shreds the KFP, medic is the medic, and GS can slow the approach of bosses with well placed shots. And I think this is where the problem lies; being able to have a perk that can fill a role PROPERLY, when I first approached the SWAT, I thought it would be either the tank or the utility, but the armour doesn't stick around long enough to make that viable, and the stumble power just isn't enough to be utility against larger zeds. Other than the SWAT, the SV is just a weird class to pick (and almost all SV allies I get are rubbish) the SS is only "viable" when they are level 25 to help proc Zed time.
Once they stop giving the Firebug, Medic and Berserker all the OP toys, perhaps they can look into making the SWAT more of a tank/crowd control, the Survivalist more flexible and the medic to not be such a clutch.

If they can do anything with the bosses, make the abomination faster and doesn't fall over (what the actual sht is that?) don't have the Patriarch retreat to heal, similarly to PvP Patriarch that can heal on the spot, and bring proper FP to the KFP boss fight aswell as Quarter Pounds. I get what they are trying to do with KFP and Abom, with a boss with a lot of minions or some big beefy minions that can deal some trouble, so make them more troublesome!

 

[Aleflippy]

I think when it comes to if a boss is "difficult" it does depend on a few things. People tend to say abomination is super easy, and on most cases that is correct, but when it was released with Krampus' Lair, the boss arena was super tight and narrow. This made the minions even more of a threat (this was pre-buff aswell) other maps that follow this mentality is nightmare, the descent, Diesector, Catacombs, Lockdown, Santa's Workshop. However when you play a map like Hostile Grounds, Burning Paris etc, the threat is basically gone since there is so much space to work with and the Abomination's speciality comes from such cramped spaces and being able to completely flood the room.
This tactic can't be said for Patty since he will excel in taking advantage of the open spaces; his machine gun and rockets make good work of that and the artillery strike forces players out of cover, however in a tight and cramped arena, his machine gun would completely miss that one berserker that is hugging Patty.
But for the Matriarch, it is a combination of the both, being able to fight her on maps like Ashwood Asylum, Hellmark Station, Outpost would be better for you since her elec shots asks for good spacing, but the laser demands quick & sharp movements around her to keep out of harms way. When the weapons fail and she gets more aggresive, those tactics fall apart and you're more invited to be in the open and have more free movement as her attacks are more limited. (However the EDARs can go rot in a corner, why were they even introduced in the first instance). Other than the questionable EDARs, the Matriarch is just fine as she is besides her really stale animations.

Other than which boss you get given on which map, it does come due in part with perk selection; Commando can spot out Patty and Matty, Demo shreds the KFP, medic is the medic, and GS can slow the approach of bosses with well placed shots. And I think this is where the problem lies; being able to have a perk that can fill a role PROPERLY, when I first approached the SWAT, I thought it would be either the tank or the utility, but the armour doesn't stick around long enough to make that viable, and the stumble power just isn't enough to be utility against larger zeds. Other than the SWAT, the SV is just a weird class to pick (and almost all SV allies I get are rubbish) the SS is only "viable" when they are level 25 to help proc Zed time.
Once they stop giving the Firebug, Medic and Berserker all the OP toys, perhaps they can look into making the SWAT more of a tank/crowd control, the Survivalist more flexible and the medic to not be such a clutch.

If they can do anything with the bosses, make the abomination faster and doesn't fall over (what the actual sht is that?) don't have the Patriarch retreat to heal, similarly to PvP Patriarch that can heal on the spot, and bring proper FP to the KFP boss fight aswell as Quarter Pounds. I get what they are trying to do with KFP and Abom, with a boss with a lot of minions or some big beefy minions that can deal some trouble, so make them more troublesome!

Rarely have I read an answer so spot-on, so exhaustive and so well-written on these forums. Which makes me sad that you only posted twenty-three messages.

You definitely nailed the boss fights of this game, and what makes them great... Or not so great.

Bravo. Although I stand my ground that the Patriarch is the goddamn hardest out of them (you also didn't talk about mah boi Hans ;-) )

 

[Humam2104]

but the armour doesn't stick around long enough to make that viable, and the stumble power just isn't enough to be utility against larger zeds

Totally Agree, Armor is almost useless on higher difficulties

the SV is just a weird class to pick (and almost all SV allies I get are rubbish)

Agreed

they can look into making the SWAT more of a tank/crowd control, the Survivalist more flexible

Agreed

 

[Breadsticks_]

Rarely have I read an answer so spot-on, so exhaustive and so well-written on these forums. Which makes me sad that you only posted twenty-three messages.

You definitely nailed the boss fights of this game, and what makes them great... Or not so great.

Bravo. Although I stand my ground that the Patriarch is the goddamn hardest out of them (you also didn't talk about mah boi Hans ;-) )

Why do I need to talk about such a handsome hunk of a guy that is already perfect. Such a great boss to fight since it is so volatile and sporadic, he just vibes on almost all maps with his wide array of moves.

I am humbled by your compliment, but it is mostly due to whether the laptop I have at the time is working, I'd be more interactive like I am now since I got a generally good laptop.

 

[Mister Master]

I always feel like the matriarch is manageable until the EDARs come out. My suggestion is to replace some of the EDAR Blasters and Bombers with Trappers. The Trappers are generally less of a threat, so they would help provide some nerfing. Plus, if her laser is nerfed as well, Trappers would actually make the Matriarch more of a fun challenge as they can trap you while she shoots you with her (nerfed) laser. So you need to be careful not to get trapped by them while avoiding her laser. That at least sounds more like a fun challenge than dodging a constant barrage of rockets and blasters from all around. EDAR Trappers may even give Berserkers more of a role in that boss fight, as they can deal with the Trappers while the rest of the team focuses on the Matriarch.

 

[Aleflippy]

I always feel like the matriarch is manageable until the EDARs come out. My suggestion is to replace some of the EDAR Blasters and Bombers with Trappers. The Trappers are generally less of a threat, so they would help provide some nerfing. Plus, if her laser is nerfed as well, Trappers would actually make the Matriarch more of a fun challenge as they can trap you while she shoots you with her (nerfed) laser. So you need to be careful not to get trapped by them while avoiding her laser. That at least sounds more like a fun challenge than dodging a constant barrage of rockets and blasters from all around. EDAR Trappers may even give Berserkers more of a role in that boss fight, as they can deal with the Trappers while the rest of the team focuses on the Matriarch.

Wow man. You won't make many friends with that idea! The Trapper is easily is the most hated out of the three EDAR enemies, and for good reasons : while clots can also grab you, they can only do so on a fairly close distance. And considering they are fairly slow : even if they are numerous, they have low chances to actually get to your back. Meanwhile, the trapper is not only much harder to kill (it has more health and armor), but it can grab you from afar ! It also spawns in pack of 2-3-4, meaning that if you have to deal with a Trapper, you'll probably have to worry about his friends too.

Now let's add the Matriarch into the equation : she's one of the most effective bosses at range (along with the Patriarch). Meaning that even if you manage to break the Trapper's chain before she gets close to you... You'll still probably get badly hurt.

On the other hand, I find the lasers and rockets of the other EDARs way easier to deal with. You can actually dodge them, shmup-style. Similarly, I also find the zerk actually a very poor choice to deal with EDARs... Sure, he can EMP them. But since you have to strike their core rather than their head, core which is surrounded by armor, it is actually atrocious to kill one, let alone FIVE of them ! And while the EDARs are much less scary at close range, it would still put the perk in grave danger (I do think, by the way, that they should be able to break the Trapper's chain just like the Clot's grab)

Finally, although I did agree with a few ideas above and found them very interesting, I do have to admit that I don't have many problems with the Matriarch... I believe that compared to other bosses, she's mostly fine. She's challenging, just like any boss should be, but doesn't feel too cheap either. It's definitely possible to kill her. I still believe Hans to be the crown jewel of the Killing Floor cast of opponents. But the Matriarch is a close second (I think the Patriarch too unreliable at times : he can get bullied by a whole team or be a complete ass by shooting at you from the other corner of the map)

(And welcome to the forum ! I see you're already being fairly active, which is always appreciated)

 

[infntnub]

I always feel like the matriarch is manageable until the EDARs come out. My suggestion is to replace some of the EDAR Blasters and Bombers with Trappers. The Trappers are generally less of a threat, so they would help provide some nerfing. Plus, if her laser is nerfed as well, Trappers would actually make the Matriarch more of a fun challenge as they can trap you while she shoots you with her (nerfed) laser. So you need to be careful not to get trapped by them while avoiding her laser. That at least sounds more like a fun challenge than dodging a constant barrage of rockets and blasters from all around. EDAR Trappers may even give Berserkers more of a role in that boss fight, as they can deal with the Trappers while the rest of the team focuses on the Matriarch.

Yeah, the EDARS continue to be the biggest annoyance in her boss fight. In the few months while I stopped playing it seems most people have come around and figured out how to properly counter her attacks/abilities.

A bad EDAR spawn can really ruin your day though unless you catch a lucky break lol.

 

[Mister Master]

Wow man. You won't make many friends with that idea! The Trapper is easily is the most hated out of the three EDAR enemies, and for good reasons : while clots can also grab you, they can only do so on a fairly close distance. And considering they are fairly slow : even if they are numerous, they have low chances to actually get to your back. Meanwhile, the trapper is not only much harder to kill (it has more health and armor), but it can grab you from afar ! It also spawns in pack of 2-3-4, meaning that if you have to deal with a Trapper, you'll probably have to worry about his friends too.

Wait, really? I honestly had no idea. Every time I see a Trapper, I'm relieved because I know that as long as I keep my distance, it isn't a threat at all. Even when it traps me, it hardly does any damage, and a few well-placed shots gets me untrapped, so I'm never trapped for more than a second or two. On the other hand, the Blaster and Bomber can deal much more damage if they happen to catch you while distracted.

Regarding the Trapper having more health and armor, I couldn't find any info on this on https://wiki.killingfloor2.com/index.php?title=E.D.A.R. That site makes it seem as if all 3 EDARs have the same health and armor. But now I'm legitimately curious if this is true. Any idea where I can read more on this?

Thanks the feedback, Aleflippy, as I truly thought Trappers would be easier to deal with, but maybe I'm wrong. Now I want to do some in-game testing for this.

 

[Aleflippy]

Wait, really? I honestly had no idea. Every time I see a Trapper, I'm relieved because I know that as long as I keep my distance, it isn't a threat at all. Even when it traps me, it hardly does any damage, and a few well-placed shots gets me untrapped, so I'm never trapped for more than a second or two. On the other hand, the Blaster and Bomber can deal much more damage if they happen to catch you while distracted.

Regarding the Trapper having more health and armor, I couldn't find any info on this on https://wiki.killingfloor2.com/index.php?title=E.D.A.R. That site makes it seem as if all 3 EDARs have the same health and armor. But now I'm legitimately curious if this is true. Any idea where I can read more on this?

Thanks the feedback, Aleflippy, as I truly thought Trappers would be easier to deal with, but maybe I'm wrong. Now I want to do some in-game testing for this.

Sorry, just wanted to clarify that I didn't mention (or didn't want to) anything about EDARs having different health levels. They all have the same HP indeed ! What I wanted to say is that they are quite resilient and stupidly tough to kill as a zerk due to their armor surrounding their weak point : you often end up striking their elbows rather than their power core !

As for Trappers as a whole : I'm only one man. I obviously didn't conduct a survey to know exactly what were the thoughts of the community. But I've been on these forums for a while now, and it honestly seems like that peculiar enemy is often seen with annoyance or sheer anger. I mean...that's the case for the EDARs in general, but even more so the Trapper.

I personally don't mind them, even if I think they should have been cyborgs rather than pure robots. I mean...They're basically free EMPs right?

 

[Breadsticks_]

Sorry, just wanted to clarify that I didn't mention (or didn't want to) anything about EDARs having different health levels. They all have the same HP indeed ! What I wanted to say is that they are quite resilient and stupidly tough to kill as a zerk due to their armor surrounding their weak point : you often end up striking their elbows rather than their power core !

As for Trappers as a whole : I'm only one man. I obviously didn't conduct a survey to know exactly what were the thoughts of the community. But I've been on these forums for a while now, and it honestly seems like that peculiar enemy is often seen with annoyance or sheer anger. I mean...that's the case for the EDARs in general, but even more so the Trapper.

I personally don't mind them, even if I think they should have been cyborgs rather than pure robots. I mean...They're basically free EMPs right?

It angers me tbh because Tripwire goes on about the HRG being free weapons to help with fan service, alongside the DLC weapons. These free weapons being reskins of existing weapons to introduce new mechanics.
But I don't see why they had to carry over this stupid neon and plastic look for new enemies. Quarterpounds were perfect since it is a mix of big threats and crowd fillers. Rioters being a nice Elite version of the Clot that makes them unique from Cysts and Slashers. But EDARS? I get that there are supposed to be new ranged enemies, but why tf did it have to be robots? There are husks in the game and you have already made the Rioter and the Elite Crawler.
I think I said this at some point but:
the Siren's Grab from PvP could be a siren variant you need to deal with instead of the EDAR Trapper.
The EDAR Blaster could be a CQC Husk with a faster fire rate, but the same weak point as the husk.
The EDAR Bomber could be the actual new Zed that can be a cyborg mutant, taking inspiration from Patty's Rocket Launcher when charging it up. It's weakpoint being the central core that can be destroyed like the standard EDAR. This Zed being more anxious to engage in CQC than the the Husk because it is very easy to kill with the headshot and the core.

 

[Aleflippy]

It angers me tbh because Tripwire goes on about the HRG being free weapons to help with fan service, alongside the DLC weapons. These free weapons being reskins of existing weapons to introduce new mechanics.
But I don't see why they had to carry over this stupid neon and plastic look for new enemies. Quarterpounds were perfect since it is a mix of big threats and crowd fillers. Rioters being a nice Elite version of the Clot that makes them unique from Cysts and Slashers. But EDARS? I get that there are supposed to be new ranged enemies, but why tf did it have to be robots? There are husks in the game and you have already made the Rioter and the Elite Crawler.
I think I said this at some point but:
the Siren's Grab from PvP could be a siren variant you need to deal with instead of the EDAR Trapper.
The EDAR Blaster could be a CQC Husk with a faster fire rate, but the same weak point as the husk.
The EDAR Bomber could be the actual new Zed that can be a cyborg mutant, taking inspiration from Patty's Rocket Launcher when charging it up. It's weakpoint being the central core that can be destroyed like the standard EDAR. This Zed being more anxious to engage in CQC than the the Husk because it is very easy to kill with the headshot and the core.

TBH, I even thought the EDARs to be either a new kind of boss (like a triple threat) or a neutral, third "faction" which would either attack both zeds and players, or appear on a specific kind of wave. Having them mix-up along with the zeds feels very weird, clashing even. But I've said that pretty much since their inclusion. Having them appear as some sort of "Husk 2.0" would have made more sense, plus they already replace Husks (and Stalkers) as they spawn.

In-fact, they could even be justified lore-wise that way. Horzine beginning to realize that purely fleshy clones are just not good enough compared to creatures amped by robotic parts and implants. Thus, they would have decided that the "new generation of zeds" would be cybernetic.

Hell, their best zeds (Scrake, Fleshpounds, Husks...and obviously the bosses) are already cyborgs ! It would make sense for them to upgrade the whole line eventually.