Please Don't Balance Weapon Damage

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TheOnlyDoor

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 11, 2011
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(quoting Panzer Jager) "Also, just for reference, yes 9mm and whatnot are proven killers. They are not reliable one-shot-stoppers (incapacitate), and people have obviously completely survived them too. Their "one-shot-stop" statistic (yes, I understand the flaws of those statistics, but one shouldn't ignore stats that are well-established with a large number of shootings) is ~60%. That means almost 1 in 2 people will fail to be incapacitated by a single shot to the torso.
Yes, if you hit vital organs with them they will still kill. But there are 2 problems with that in itself:

1) the wound channel is very small and hitting vital organs is a matter of excellent shot placement
2) accuracy is relatively bad and so shot placement becomes more random than not"

If you want to rely on fatality statistics... why is the .45 ACP 230gr FMJ a 63% stopper when the 9mm 115gr FMJ is a 63% stopper too? Of course, that is incapacitation from a chest shot, disregarding if target died afterwards, but incapacitation is what you want when the bad guy is pointing a gun at you. Those specific percentages are well-established from a wide number of shootings, and there is without a doubt some truth in them. You can't just ignore data from over 1100 shootings with .45 ACP 230gr FMJ and over 550 shootings with 9mm 115gr FMJ.[/QUOTE]

I will ( for textbook authority) reley on "Handgun stopping Power- the definitive study" by Evan P. Marshall which places it closer to 81% for .45 ball and around 57% for 9mm ball.
Never the less I'll make this point, as far as the ancient 9mm vs .45 argument goes, law enforments job is not to "kill" but to subdue in most situations and opted for the 9mm for this reason and also higher capacity.
There is a reason WW2 military picked the .45 for both thier standard issue sidearm(colt 45) and submachinegun (Thompson)....lethality!!
If someone were breaking into my home, and I only had one bullet for my 9mm and one for my .45 ( ridiculous analogy I know, but I'm trying to make a point) I would grab the .45 without even a second thought.
I think you would too.
 
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[5GTA] Juan

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 18, 2008
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Ebro Front
www.clantoro-ro.wesped.es
Our fear was that something appeared in other FPS as BFBC2 or CODMW2, where 2weapons firing the same cartridge from a barrel the same lenght and with even the same internalas (as M4A1 and TAVOR) do different damage...
I hope this doesn
 

TheOnlyDoor

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 11, 2011
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Did... Did you not read the post directly below the post you replied to?
I went back and re-read them...I must be missing something..or just tired.
Are they infact modelling the organs too? please elaborate. I'm not being a smart-***, I hope they are doing that.
 

Panzer Jager '43

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 15, 2010
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TheOnlyDoor said:
I will ( for textbook authority) reley on "Handgun stopping Power- the definitive study" by Evan P. Marshall which places it closer to 81% for .45 ball and around 57% for 9mm ball.

There are many, many more tables out there that have values between 57% and 63% for .45 ACP 230gr FMJ. I've never seen an 81% but that just shows how 1-shot stop tables can be unreliable too.
Here is one table with large numbers of shootings. [URL]http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=18&Weight=All[/URL]

1150 shootings with .45 ACP FMJ listed there. Percentages are 57-62%.

TheOnlyDoor said:
Never the less I'll make this point, as far as the ancient 9mm vs .45 argument goes, law enforments job is not to "kill" but to subdue in most situations and opted for the 9mm for this reason and also higher capacity.
There is a reason WW2 military picked the .45 for both thier standard issue sidearm(colt 45) and submachinegun (Thompson)....lethality!!
If someone were breaking into my home, and I only had one bullet for my 9mm and one for my .45 ( ridiculous analogy I know, but I'm trying to make a point) I would grab the .45 without even a second thought.
I think you would too.

If I had only 1 shot, sure. Slightly bigger bullet means slightly better chance of hitting something vital. But not if I had the choice between 9mm +P+ JHP and .45 ACP FMJ. And also not if I had the choice between 15 rounds of 9mm FMJ as opposed to 7 rounds of .45 ACP FMJ. If I *really* had options, I'd either go 15 rounds 9mm +P+ JHP, or 12 rounds .45 ACP 230gr JHP.
 
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TheOnlyDoor

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 11, 2011
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(quoting Panzer Jager '43) "If I had only 1 shot, sure. Slightly bigger bullet means slightly better chance of hitting something vital. But not if I had the choice between 9mm +P+ JHP and .45 ACP FMJ. And also not if I had the choice between 15 rounds of 9mm FMJ as opposed to 7 rounds of .45 ACP FMJ. If I *really* had options, I'd either go 15 rounds 9mm +P+ JHP, or 12 rounds .45 ACP 230gr JHP."[/QUOTE]

Well..were both obviously firearm enthusiasts ( So we can call each other friends).
In my orginal response I qualified my statement by saying that the 9mm vs .45 argument ended once we started talking about + P ammo.
-NRA life member here. Glad to meet you.
 

Panzer Jager '43

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 15, 2010
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Heheh, ok. Perhaps we can get back on topic. While there will be differences between Pistol calibers, I would expect Tripwire to implement them still to perform largely the same, as that's what they did in RO1. We won't be seeing .45 ACP weapons, but 7.62x25 and 9x19 will exist, and while there are differences in how the bullets perform in tissue, Tripwire will probably make them perform largely the same.

So when you have to compare the PPSh to the MP40, you get down to this:

-PPSh now in RO2 starts with 35 round magazine.
-PPSh fires faster, has very similar damage, similar accuracy, and perhaps slightly better penetration. Recoil is also a lot lower shot per shot.
-Because the PPSh fires faster, two things will happen: recoil will climb more in a shorter period of time, and your magazine will practically vanish.
-The MP40 may have very low rate of fire, but it will be very comfortable to control, and offer a good amount of stained fire.

Tripwire's not going to say "well, the PPSh fires a lot faster, we should reduce it's damage to keep the same DPS." I expect both the weapons to do almost, if not exactly, the same damage (since that's the way it was in RO1.) The advantages and disadvantages will come out of the way the weapon really works.

And a final note on 9mm vs .45: While a 9mm JHP may or may not expand, a .45 will never shrink. It's true and the advantage does go to the .45, but it's like that advantage doesn't always get to play it's hand. If you miss a vital organ you miss a vital organ... even if you had better chance of hitting it.
 
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VariousNames

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 6, 2009
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Games that use unlocks is a bonus - don't dumb down the advantage. People play to unlock things, achievements, etc for a reason. If you can't play the game as much, it's NOT everyone else problem. Play more and don't whine.

Forgive me but I don't see your operative criterion for any of these judgments.

You seem to be of the opinion that game balance is a bad thing, your reasoning being that "this is not a console game." Is that to suggest that only console games should be "balanced?"

The reasoning behind not having weapon damage balancing, which is something to my understanding the developers have maintained for a good while since the mod days, is that weapon damage balancing is unrealistic. Ost Front famously has semi automatic rifles that are one shot torso kills.

Ergo TW's criteria for that lack of balance was "realism."

What is your criteria? This part of your post doesn't make any sense to me.

I will ( for textbook authority) reley on "Handgun stopping Power- the definitive study" by Evan P. Marshall which places it closer to 81% for .45 ball and around 57% for 9mm ball.

What's the reason behind that level of deviation? I've seen numerous different figures from the Marshall studies, and it seems to me they have a good degree of variability, which suggests to me that they are nonsense as far as what you should go by for an objective measurement of lethality.

Lethality is a matter of ballistics, not caliber. Shot placement, wound channel width, depth of penetration....these are variables that the Marshall study doesn't take into account and thus should be discounted out of hand.
 
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dogbadger

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 19, 2006
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here to kill your monster
well it looks like certain balancing is in the unlocks for example the ppsh only receiving the drum mag once you have unlocked it(due to it being an inherently powerfull weapon in game) - so if you prefer this kind of balancing, (cos i guess you can't have the entire Russ team holding a significant advantage) rather than exaggerating the actual recoil, then i guess you'll be at least half happy.
I'm not too sure myself as this system basically says we aren't going to allow to use a certain powerful weapon to it's fullest until you are already a better player.
But what can you do?

Certain weapons are always unique to specific uses especially when it comes to damage or lethality. Please don't balance the weapon damage to make the weaker weapons "feel even" as this is NOT a console only game.

I've never been a big console gamer but this artificial gun balance has long been a feature of many PC games.
Unless of course you're using the word console as an attempt to 'shame' the devs into compliance.
 
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Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
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All this talk about stopping power and pistol rounds is quite funny to be honest.

Fact is that no pistol chambered in either 9x19mm or .45 ACP is going to be a reliable one shot stopper: They are sidearms for pete's sake!, not shotguns!

Furthermore testing in the field has long revealed that the difference between the 9x19mm & .45 ACP is absolutely nil when it comes to how effective either one is at incapacitating a human target. Some stubborn people however still swear by the "the bigger the better" line of thought, and that's nomatter how many testimonials or gel tests you show them to prove otherwise.

Finally the .357 Magnum is considered one of the most effective pistol rounds out there right now, being much more destructive than either the 9x19mm or .45 ACP - there quite simply is no comparison.
 

Ermac

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 19, 2007
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All this talk about stopping power and pistol rounds is quite funny to be honest.

Fact is that no pistol chambered in either 9x19mm or .45 ACP is going to be a reliable one shot stopper: They are sidearms for pete's sake!, not shotguns!

Furthermore testing in the field has long revealed that the difference between the 9x19mm & .45 ACP is absolutely nil when it comes to how effective either one is at incapacitating a human target. Some stubborn people however still swear by the "the bigger the better" line of thought, and that's nomatter how many testimonials or gel tests you show them to prove otherwise.

Finally the .357 Magnum is considered one of the most effective pistol rounds out there right now, being much more destructive than either the 9x19mm or .45 ACP - there quite simply is no comparison.
I agree, I think all pistols are underpowered. Well in ball ammo at least, the .45 acp will leave a bigger permanent cavity, so it's crushing more tissue then a 9mm, so your statement is not correct. If we're talking about hollow points it's a different story. A 9mm hollow point today is nearly as effective as a .45 acp JHP.
 

Panzer Jager '43

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 15, 2010
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All this talk about stopping power and pistol rounds is quite funny to be honest.

Fact is that no pistol chambered in either 9x19mm or .45 ACP is going to be a reliable one shot stopper: They are sidearms for pete's sake!, not shotguns!

Furthermore testing in the field has long revealed that the difference between the 9x19mm & .45 ACP is absolutely nil when it comes to how effective either one is at incapacitating a human target. Some stubborn people however still swear by the "the bigger the better" line of thought, and that's nomatter how many testimonials or gel tests you show them to prove otherwise.

Finally the .357 Magnum is considered one of the most effective pistol rounds out there right now, being much more destructive than either the 9x19mm or .45 ACP - there quite simply is no comparison.

I do agree, as I too have been presented with plenty of information that suggests that while there are differences between 9mm and .45 ACP Ball ammo, those differences are relatively small (in terms of incapacitation - not in terms of it's ability to afterwards kill the target, which .45 ACP *may* cause more bleeding.) And yes, .357 Magnum with the right loads can be very reliable, *but* so can a good overpressure expanding 9mm or .45.
 
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Ermac

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 19, 2007
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If only there was a pistol round that killed like a rifle, but didn't have the recoil,size, or capacity restrictions.
 

aop

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 28, 2006
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Longer, pointed bullets are more prone to yawing and therefore will hit organs in their path that they would otherwise not have had they punched straight through.

Also, just for reference, yes 9mm and whatnot are proven killers. They are not reliable one-shot-stoppers (incapacitate), and people have obviously completely survived them too. Their "one-shot-stop" statistic (yes, I understand the flaws of those statistics, but one shouldn't ignore stats that are well-established with a large number of shootings) is ~60%. That means almost 1 in 2 people will fail to be incapacitated by a single shot to the torso.
Yes, if you hit vital organs with them they will still kill. But there are 2 problems with that in itself:

1) the wound channel is very small and hitting vital organs is a matter of excellent shot placement
2) accuracy is relatively bad and so shot placement becomes more random than not
1) Upper torso is filled with vital organs.

In addition to those shown in picture above there are atleast spine, subclavian and carotid arteries that should be 1 shot kills or incapacitations.

2) I've seen one guy shooting 20cm groupings @ 150m with 9mm Suomi SMG in semi-automatic mode. I don't know how accurate PPSh or MP40 are but they should be fine @ 50m.
 

Etienne.S

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 10, 2011
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Bullets do damage. Guns give accuracy, range, rof, ect. I to hate it when developers do this for example. MW2 Vector (Kriss Super V) uses a .45 ACP does less damage them the MP5 which uses a 9mm. It just doesn't make any sense.

Properly applied kinetic energy does damage. Bullets are just mass, the weapon and cartridge supply velocity. I can throw .45's at you all day long and you might have a bruise to show for it by nightfall. 9mm's from a handgun vs. the same 9mm from a submachinegun or carbine should deal very different amounts of damage.
 

Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
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I agree, I think all pistols are underpowered. Well in ball ammo at least, the .45 acp will leave a bigger permanent cavity, so it's crushing more tissue then a 9mm, so your statement is not correct. If we're talking about hollow points it's a different story. A 9mm hollow point today is nearly as effective as a .45 acp JHP.

Well what can I say, actual testing have shown both to perform the same, whilst the 9mm will generally penetrate more material, and as such have a higher chance of severing the spine at longer distances.
 

MagicSnake

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 28, 2011
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Qu
To answer Imminent's (OP's) question:
I strongly doubt RO2 will feature any "weapon balancing" aka "tweaking weapons to make them all equally effective in their given field of application".

I'm 99% confident RO2 will keep RO's core philosophy of representing the featured weapons in the most realistic way possible.

"Balancing" will occur through class limitations, map layout and "rank 1" load-outs (what you get when you're lvl 1)

In my opinion, the whole unlock and ranking system is simply a way to prevent newer players from leaving the game with a feeling the game is somewhat "unbalanced".

For instance, making new players start with box magazines (~25 rounds) on their PPSH instead of the more common drum magazine (~71 rounds) is a way to lessen the inherent "imbalances" between these two weapons.

Another example is not having semi-automatic rifles the first time you play the game (they have to be unlocked, right?), because the semi-auto rifles are quite superior in combat to the bolt action rifles, despite their very slight drop in accuracy (honestly, the accuracy difference is only really noticeable when using the scoped version: I've never had any problem shooting someone through the ironsights of a semi-auto, and their increased rate of fire is a blessing in every situation I can think of). And they both kill in 1 shot 95% of the time.

As for hitboxes, if RO2 is anything like RO1, they will be very realistic ;) (In my opinion at least. I've never had the desire to "test" them: they simply feel nerve-breakingly tight whilst playing the game. Near-misses are very common, and very exiting.)
 
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Panzer Jager '43

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 15, 2010
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2) I've seen one guy shooting 20cm groupings @ 150m with 9mm Suomi SMG in semi-automatic mode. I don't know how accurate PPSh or MP40 are but they should be fine @ 50m.
If you're saying you can achieve even 5 MoA with an MP40 while under fire you sir are godly calm.

Most Pistols in WW2 Era were between 7 and 10 MoA for controlled, steady firing. Good luck hitting vital organs when you want to.
 

aop

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 28, 2006
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If you're saying you can achieve even 5 MoA with an MP40 while under fire you sir are godly calm.

Most Pistols in WW2 Era were between 7 and 10 MoA for controlled, steady firing. Good luck hitting vital organs when you want to.
Ummmm... Are you implying combat stress only affects SMG users? I have seen this argument so many times when people are trying to make excuses why SMGs and pistols should suck but it's funny how it's not mentioned in rifle or MG discussions.

I must ask how dumb do you think people are? First you claim certain type of weapon is inaccurate thus hitting vital organs would be hard. I say it really isn't that inaccurate and then you come up with the "being under fire" explanation. If same explanation was applied to every weapon in the game suddenly every gun would be inaccurate as hell.

No need to aim for vital organs, just the area of the body which is absolutely filled with them. Upper torso (and head above it) isn't exactly a small target.
 

Panzer Jager '43

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 15, 2010
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I must ask how dumb do you think people are? First you claim certain type of weapon is inaccurate thus hitting vital organs would be hard. I say it really isn't that inaccurate and then you come up with the "being under fire" explanation. If same explanation was applied to every weapon in the game suddenly every gun would be inaccurate as hell.

No need to aim for vital organs, just the area of the body which is absolutely filled with them. Upper torso (and head above it) isn't exactly a small target.

I don't need to argue with you. I know that in RO2 pistol-caliber weapons will be inaccurate, if you like it or not. If you think you could hit the heart with an MP-40 at 150m, that's great, but in the game you won't be able to, since not everyone can.

And, there *is* suppression in RO2, that will cause your gun to wander when aiming. It will indeed affect Rifles too. But a man with a Rifle is going to be patient with his wandering until the sights are on the target, so that it *is* a hit, whereas even if you do that with an SMG it may not be a hit. That is just the fundamentals of how a player will use a gun. For example, in your typical FPS shooter, players will not try sniping with Shotguns. It doesn't work. And so, in a realistic shooter, players will not bother taking aimed single shots with submachine guns. It's not worth it and if your target has a Rifle you will be dead first, since he can hit you where it hurts.
 
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aop

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 28, 2006
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I don't need to argue with you. I know that in RO2 pistol-caliber weapons will be inaccurate, if you like it or not. If you think you could hit the heart with an MP-40 at 150m, that's great, but in the game you won't be able to, since not everyone can.
Care to quote where I said that?

All I have said is that MP40 and PPSh accuracy should be just fine at 50m and hitting upper torso that is filled with vital organs and arteries shouldn't be a big problem at that range.