Please Don't Balance Weapon Damage

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Imminent

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 14, 2011
1
5
0
Certain weapons are always unique to specific uses especially when it comes to damage or lethality. Please don't balance the weapon damage to make the weaker weapons "feel even" as this is NOT a console only game. Games that use unlocks is a bonus - don't dumb down the advantage. People play to unlock things, achievements, etc for a reason. If you can't play the game as much, it's NOT everyone else problem. Play more and don't whine.

Also, please control those hit boxes. It's awful that so many of the latest games have huge hit boxes due to "latency" while they claim it's to "balance the game play and level the playing field." This is just ridiculous thinking and piss poor planning on their part.

Otherwise, I look forward to something outside the normal experience.
 

Panzer Jager '43

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 15, 2010
1,169
218
0
Uh, heads up, if Submachine Guns and Pistols are weak in your opinion when you first get to play the game, it's because they actually are weak, not for balance. Just letting you know that so you won't be completely shocked by the fact that it can take more than 1 round for Pistol-caliber weapons to stop a target.

If you're expecting that a Semi-Auto Rifle of the same caliber as it's Bolt-Action brother will be weaker, well, that's not the case. In RO1, said Semi-Auto Rifles maintained the same lethality, but suffered reduced accuracy due to the nature of the weapon's design, not for balancing purposes. This is going to be the same case again in RO2: Machine Guns and Semi-Auto Rifles will have the same lethality as the Bolt-Rifles, but since they have more moving parts and poorly-manufactured barrels, they will be less accurate.
 
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Hero of Equestria

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 14, 2011
3
0
0
On the contrary, Balance in a game is a good thing - to a certain point. Asymmetrical balance is the best, as having 2 cloned people fighting can get very boring. The point is, there should at no point any anything that is 'better' than anything else in every way (sure, things can be better than something else in certain situations. For example, a sniper should be better at long range then an SMG, and an SMG better at short range. Situationally better, not inherently. ) and no upgrade should every be 'better,' just different. The above posted pointed out how semi-auto rifles were different from bolt-action, and this is a good example. You choose between Rate of fire and accuracy. Very Nice.

The point is, No player should be forced into a disadvantage or advantage because of their 'level' - having levels and unlocks is fine for variety and cosmetics.

If you can't play the game as much, it's NOT everyone else problem. Play more and don't whine. [/suote]
This is a very arrogant stance to take. Not everyone has the time to play 24/7, and not being able to do so should not lead to an inherent disadvantage beyond the obvious skill level of the player. That is, not playing much comes with enough disadvantages without the game piling on more.

From what i have seen, I'm very happy with the way Ro's levels and gun balance works. Of course, this is subject to change, but for now it looks good.
 

LHeureux

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jan 24, 2011
562
175
0
Uh, heads up, if Submachine Guns and Pistols are weak in your opinion when you first get to play the game, it's because they actually are weak, not for balance. Just letting you know that so you won't be completely shocked by the fact that it can take more than 1 round for Pistol-caliber weapons to stop a target.

If you're expecting that a Semi-Auto Rifle of the same caliber as it's Bolt-Action brother will be weaker, well, that's not the case. In RO1, said Semi-Auto Rifles maintained the same lethality, but suffered reduced accuracy due to the nature of the weapon's design, not for balancing purposes. This is going to be the same case again in RO2: Machine Guns and Semi-Auto Rifles will have the same lethality as the Bolt-Rifles, but since they have more moving parts and poorly-manufactured barrels, they will be less accurate.
What he means by balanced weapons are this kind of thing :

PPSH41
Accuracy : |||||||||||||||
Damage:-- |||||||||

MP40:
Accuracy : |||||||||
Damage: --|||||||||||||||

He doesn't want the devs to balance the weapons to be "fair" towards the people who doesn't have any unlocks. IN my exemple the MP40 does more damage but is less accurate than the PPSH. In most game when you unlock a new weapon it's not "better" it's just have different properties so that all weapons are balanced, even unlocked ones.
 
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TheOnlyDoor

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 11, 2011
45
29
0
The PPSH fired a .45cal round and the MP40 a 9mm.
By nature the smaller 9mm would be more accurate and less lethal. The oppsite being true for the .45 round.
 
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Panzer Jager '43

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 15, 2010
1,169
218
0
The PPSH fired a .45cal round and the MP40 a 9mm.
By nature the smaller 9mm would be more accurate and less lethal. The oppsite being true for the .45 round.

I hope you're not serious... the PPSh41 fired 7.62x25mm Tokarev round. I've seen 9mm conversions of the PPSh-41 but they were in service with the Germans, and I've never seen a .45 ACP PPSh-41.

Also, .45 ACP Ball is not much more powerful than 9mm. Hollow-points are where the .45 ACP shines since the heavier bullets can expand more, but we can't use those since we'll be playing as Military units.

What he means by balanced weapons are this kind of thing :

PPSH41
Accuracy : |||||||||||||||
Damage:-- |||||||||

MP40:
Accuracy : |||||||||
Damage: --|||||||||||||||

Ok, yea. Tripwire won't do that. OP can rest assured. However unlocked weapons will have different properties too. For example if you unlock the MkB42(H) for the Elite Assault Class, compared to the MP40 it will suffer more recoil, but have greater accuracy and lethality. That's just what the differences are between the weapons, and the amount of difference is represented as well as Tripwire can manage. If you unlock the SVT-40 for your Elite Rifleman class, it will suffer reduced accuracy due to poor design, but boast faster reloading and rate of fire than the Mosin Nagant.

The properties of weapons are realistically represented, and won't be changed so the MP-40 is "magically" more powerful to balance it's low rate of fire.
 
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Dorka

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 26, 2011
42
6
0
Western Australia
The closest thing to 'balancing' weapons TWI have done that I know of is having the PPSH 41 come with the less common 25 round box magazine rather than the 72 round drum, which will be an unlock.
 
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aop

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 28, 2006
242
67
0
Uh, heads up, if Submachine Guns and Pistols are weak in your opinion when you first get to play the game, it's because they actually are weak, not for balance. Just letting you know that so you won't be completely shocked by the fact that it can take more than 1 round for Pistol-caliber weapons to stop a target.

If you're expecting that a Semi-Auto Rifle of the same caliber as it's Bolt-Action brother will be weaker, well, that's not the case. In RO1, said Semi-Auto Rifles maintained the same lethality, but suffered reduced accuracy due to the nature of the weapon's design, not for balancing purposes. This is going to be the same case again in RO2: Machine Guns and Semi-Auto Rifles will have the same lethality as the Bolt-Rifles, but since they have more moving parts and poorly-manufactured barrels, they will be less accurate.
Care to elaborate?

IMHO there's no suchs thing as "weak" weapon when it comes to firearms. Both 9mm Luger and 7.62mm Tokarev were designed to kill people and they did it just fine. They weren't made for long range shooting like rifle cartridges but they were devastating in CQB. If you get hit in heart, lungs, liver, brain or major arteries it doesn't matter that much if it was a high velocity rifle bullet (unless it "blows" the lung) or pistol caliber bullet fired from SMG. It's true that high velocity bullets have more potential for tissue damage but when something vital is hit it doesn't matter that much. Remember that back then there weren't body armors in use like today (except flak vests for pilots and experimental chest plate on Soviet side).

I would love to see FPS game that implemented simulation style damage models on player models. It would be great if vital organs and major arteries were modelled for one shot kills and rest of the areas would accumulate tissue damage that eventually leads to death or player being incapacitated.
 

[TW]Wilsonam

VP, Tripwire Int.
Oct 17, 2005
4,061
2,618
0
62
Roswell, GA
www.tripwireinteractive.com
I would love to see FPS game that implemented simulation style damage models on player models. It would be great if vital organs and major arteries were modelled for one shot kills and rest of the areas would accumulate tissue damage that eventually leads to death or player being incapacitated.
Funny you should mention that... I think PC Gamer did a piece describing that system a little while back. So now you are officially in love with RO2 :p
 
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The Algerian

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 29, 2011
680
187
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Care to elaborate?
I would love to see FPS game that implemented simulation style damage models on player models. It would be great if vital organs and major arteries were modelled for one shot kills and rest of the areas would accumulate tissue damage that eventually leads to death or player being incapacitated.

Funny you should mention that... I think PC Gamer did a piece describing that system a little while back. So now you are officially in love with RO2 :p


Haha, i can't count how many times I said while playing FPS "WHAT THE HELL?! I SHOT HIM IN THE BALLS, HOW CAN HE SURVIVE?!!"
 
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Bishop Miles

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 5, 2010
4
1
0
Bullets do damage. Guns give accuracy, range, rof, ect. I to hate it when developers do this for example. MW2 Vector (Kriss Super V) uses a .45 ACP does less damage them the MP5 which uses a 9mm. It just doesn't make any sense.
 
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aop

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 28, 2006
242
67
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Funny you should mention that... I think PC Gamer did a piece describing that system a little while back. So now you are officially in love with RO2 :p
Hahah, nice!

Quake 3 mod named "Urban Terror" had that system (atleast before it went on and tried to copy Counter-Strike). It displayed what organ was hit in the kill messages.
 

Ermac

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 19, 2007
591
106
0
Damage can be tricky to implant. I guess theoractically a 9mm is going to be more lethal then a 7.62x25 because it leaves a larger hole, but that won't make much of difference when a burst of 5 goes into your chest.
 

Dödluvan

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 19, 2009
84
40
0
Certain weapons are always unique to specific uses especially when it comes to damage or lethality. Please don't balance the weapon damage to make the weaker weapons "feel even" as this is NOT a console only game. Games that use unlocks is a bonus - don't dumb down the advantage. People play to unlock things, achievements, etc for a reason. If you can't play the game as much, it's NOT everyone else problem. Play more and don't whine.

Also, please control those hit boxes. It's awful that so many of the latest games have huge hit boxes due to "latency" while they claim it's to "balance the game play and level the playing field." This is just ridiculous thinking and piss poor planning on their part.

Otherwise, I look forward to something outside the normal experience.

Play RO1.
 

Major Liability

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 14, 2010
921
165
0
New York
I'd much rather see the weapons have realistic capabilities than balanced ones, even if I am the one getting shot by them. Like how the scoped Mosin reloads one round at a time just because the K98k mount didn't leave room for stripper clips. I hate that! RO is more about position and preparation than shooting reflexes, minor differences like that would only be significant in far twitchier shooters IMHO.

And of course there are games like World at War where the Arisaka does more damage than the Garand for balance reasons. TWI would never do something like that... right?
 
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TheOnlyDoor

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 11, 2011
45
29
0
I hope you're not serious... the PPSh41 fired 7.62x25mm Tokarev round. I've seen 9mm conversions of the PPSh-41 but they were in service with the Germans, and I've never seen a .45 ACP PPSh-41.

Also, .45 ACP Ball is not much more powerful than 9mm. Hollow-points are where the .45 ACP shines since the heavier bullets can expand more, but we can't use those since we'll be playing as Military units.

I had always heard that the he ppsh fired a 45. ball. Bad info on my part then. However I don't own nor have I ever fired a PPSH so I relied on others.
Yet I do own several .45's and a 9mm. and I can tell you this Ball to Ball, unless your talking about +P ammo, the standard 9mm ball is WITHOUT question inferior to the standard .45 ball. You can talk ballistic's geletin all you want. I'll reley on the testimony of law enforcement and fatality statistics readily available online with a little research.
Long and short...if you want to go plinking soup cans...you use a 9mm. If you want to defend yourself and drop a body doing so....you use a .45 ( or a .357 minimum if were talking revolvers) end of story for me.
The pistols in Ro2 should reflect this too.
 
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Panzer Jager '43

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 15, 2010
1,169
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Care to elaborate?

IMHO there's no suchs thing as "weak" weapon when it comes to firearms. Both 9mm Luger and 7.62mm Tokarev were designed to kill people and they did it just fine. They weren't made for long range shooting like rifle cartridges but they were devastating in CQB. If you get hit in heart, lungs, liver, brain or major arteries it doesn't matter that much if it was a high velocity rifle bullet (unless it "blows" the lung) or pistol caliber bullet fired from SMG. It's true that high velocity bullets have more potential for tissue damage but when something vital is hit it doesn't matter that much. Remember that back then there weren't body armors in use like today (except flak vests for pilots and experimental chest plate on Soviet side).

Longer, pointed bullets are more prone to yawing and therefore will hit organs in their path that they would otherwise not have had they punched straight through.

Also, just for reference, yes 9mm and whatnot are proven killers. They are not reliable one-shot-stoppers (incapacitate), and people have obviously completely survived them too. Their "one-shot-stop" statistic (yes, I understand the flaws of those statistics, but one shouldn't ignore stats that are well-established with a large number of shootings) is ~60%. That means almost 1 in 2 people will fail to be incapacitated by a single shot to the torso.
Yes, if you hit vital organs with them they will still kill. But there are 2 problems with that in itself:

1) the wound channel is very small and hitting vital organs is a matter of excellent shot placement
2) accuracy is relatively bad and so shot placement becomes more random than not

TheOnlyDoor said:
I'll reley on the testimony of law enforcement and fatality statistics readily available online with a little research.
If you want to rely on fatality statistics... why is the .45 ACP 230gr FMJ a 63% stopper when the 9mm 115gr FMJ is a 63% stopper too? Of course, that is incapacitation from a chest shot, disregarding if target died afterwards, but incapacitation is what you want when the bad guy is pointing a gun at you. Those specific percentages are well-established from a wide number of shootings, and there is without a doubt some truth in them. You can't just ignore data from over 1100 shootings with .45 ACP 230gr FMJ and over 550 shootings with 9mm 115gr FMJ.
 
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TheOnlyDoor

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jul 11, 2011
45
29
0
Care to elaborate?

IMHO there's no suchs thing as "weak" weapon when it comes to firearms. Both 9mm Luger and 7.62mm Tokarev were designed to kill people and they did it just fine. They weren't made for long range shooting like rifle cartridges but they were devastating in CQB. If you get hit in heart, lungs, liver, brain or major arteries it doesn't matter that much if it was a high velocity rifle bullet (unless it "blows" the lung) or pistol caliber bullet fired from SMG. It's true that high velocity bullets have more potential for tissue damage but when something vital is hit it doesn't matter that much. Remember that back then there weren't body armors in use like today (except flak vests for pilots and experimental chest plate on Soviet side).

I would love to see FPS game that implemented simulation style damage models on player models. It would be great if vital organs and major arteries were modelled for one shot kills and rest of the areas would accumulate tissue damage that eventually leads to death or player being incapacitated.

Model the organs too......I love that idea!!!! YOSHI or RAMM did you read this post??? What an excellent idea. Though you would never "see" the modelling, just to know that the damage factor incorporated such minute detail would be amazing in RO2.
 

Panzer Jager '43

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 15, 2010
1,169
218
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Damage can be tricky to implant. I guess theoractically a 9mm is going to be more lethal then a 7.62x25 because it leaves a larger hole, but that won't make much of difference when a burst of 5 goes into your chest.

Theoretically, yes, but Ballistics Gel tests show that 7.62x25mm FMJ will yaw in tissue when 9mm FMJ does not, and as a result destroy similar amounts of tissue as 9mm.

In RO1, 7.62x25mm and 9x19mm weapons both did the same damage - "50" hitpoints. This translated in the engine to capable of killing in 1 shot, but usually requiring 2, and sometimes even 3.
 
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