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Plane Problem

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#202
The plane will take off if the wheel bearings don't freeze up. The wheels make the treadmill speed irrelevant. The wheels would just be spinning way faster than they would without the treadmill being there.

Also, since the wheel speed will be double the normal speed, the centrifugal force will likely negatively effect the tires. For instance, in top-fuel drag racing the rear wheels actually expand and become significantly larger in diameter from the effects of centrifugal force. This could cause a tire blow out, since the design specifications will likely be exceeded.
 
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#204
some people here funnily mix up the speed the wheels turn and the actual speed of the plane.
The problem states the tredmill moves as fast as the plane, not the wheels.
Basically the wheels would have to run with the doubled speed compared to a "normal" lift off.

Oh, and the plane would take off :)
 
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#205
worluk said:
some people here funnily mix up the speed the wheels turn and the actual speed of the plane.
The problem states the tredmill moves as fast as the plane, not the wheels.
Basically the wheels would have to run with the doubled speed compared to a "normal" lift off.

Oh, and the plane would take off :)
Click to expand...

You get the point ;)

fakt is the plane will move forwart, and when it does it will get ascending force to lift up
(imagine that the treadmill is long enough, so the plane can accelerate till it has the ascending force to lift up)
 
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#206
O'Shannon said:
no you are wrong, the plane and the treadmill and my hand are moveing in the same speed, just in aother directions thats it . you guy need to go to school again. seriously!!
Click to expand...


The plane from this picture can take off.

What I wanted to show is that this picture is not showing the same problem like the one OT posted where the speed of plane relatively to the treadmill is 1x and not 2x. (adding vectors ?)

Have a look at the original animated picture.
 
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#208
the original pic is wrong to, because the planes engines are running, so the plane should move forward because its forced too by the engines, (engines=my rope that pulls the plane)
(rope No2=treadmill speed = same speed as plane)

the original picture is a simplified demonstration of the problem just like my pic.

so imagine the treadmill in the pic is as long as a airstrip/runway for real planes. its long enough for the plane to exelerate too the needed speed to take of)

the friction of the wheels, that are twice as fast(spinning) as the plane, is not enough to stop a plane which is powered by two turbines

my pic should only show that the movement of the treadmill doesnt affactes the movement of the plane.
 
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#210
In the original image (assuming is correct):

- the relative speed of the plane to observer (air) is 0. => the thrust made by the plane engine is just enought to compensate the wheel friction. there is no other indication of how big the thrust is.

- the treadmill is moving unnaturally -> treadmill has an engine. If the threadmill would be moved by the advancing plane the treadmill should move in the same direction with the plane. (because of the friction)


With the info provided by the image (and not speculated) the plane cannot take off. If the thrust would become bigger then it can take off. but as shhown in the image not.
 
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#212
Ruprecht said:
lol, i want to see how you count that in a formular why the plane wont take off.

it will take off, just the weels spin twice as fast.
Click to expand...

because in the animated picture the relative speed to the air is 0.
If the speed > 0 then it can take off.

Pls... look at the picture what is showing and do not presume more or less. Just take the facts.


http://meignorant.com/2posts/Fly-NotFly.gif
 
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#214
radix said:
In the original image (assuming is correct):

- the relative speed of the plane to observer (air) is 0. => the thrust made by the plane engine is just enought to compensate the wheel friction. there is no other indication of how big the thrust is.
Click to expand...

when the engines are that weak, the plane wouldnt be able take off at a regular runway. but who would use such a plane:confused:

when i should perform such a stunt, there should be a full functional plane and not a plane that barly overcomes the friction of its whells:D
 
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#215
O'Shannon said:
You get the point ;)

fakt is the plane will move forwart, and when it does it will get ascending force to lift up
(imagine that the treadmill is long enough, so the plane can accelerate till it has the ascending force to lift up)
Click to expand...

No, the problem prohibits any forward movement of the plane (the problem is wrong, and seems to be based an a false idea that a plane drives the same way a car does, but that is not the point), so the plane cannot be allowed to move forward according to the problem.

If we stay within the confines of the problem, ergo, we play along and pretend a plane's forward momentum can be counteracted by a treadmill, it cannot take off.


If we are allowed to disregard the rules put forth by the problem such as you do, then i can construct it to proove anything i want, hence we need to stay within the confines of the problem, even if the problem is based on a faulty assumption.
 
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#216
Grobut said:
No, the problem prohibits any forward movement of the plane (the problem is wrong, and seems to be based an a false idea that a plane drives the same way a car does, but that is not the point), so the plane cannot be allowed to move forward according to the problem.

If we stay within the confines of the problem, ergo, we play along and pretend a plane's forward momentum can be counteracted by a treadmill, it cannot take off.


If we are allowed to disregard the rules put forth by the problem such as you do, then i can construct it to proove anything i want, hence we need to stay within the confines of the problem, even if the problem is based on a faulty assumption.
Click to expand...

show me the line where the problem states that the plane wont move forward?
You get that impression from a gif that has nothing (NOTHING) to do with the actual problem.
The plane will move forward!
 
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#218
Grobut said:
No, the problem prohibits any forward movement of the plane (the problem is wrong, and seems to be based an a false idea that a plane drives the same way a car does, but that is not the point), so the plane cannot be allowed to move forward according to the problem.
Click to expand...

the plane in my pic doesnt move like a car .. the pulled rope works like the pushing tubines and not like the engine of a car that powers the wheels ;)
 
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#219
Seems half of the people here have no clue how airplanes work.
Wrong, this is why at airports they have wind-socks that tell them what direction the wind is blowing. Airplanes take off into the wind.
Click to expand...
What the hell dude. They take off into the wind because it's easier that way.
But some airports have only one runway, and sometimes the wind blows perpendicular to that runway. What happens in this scenario, no planes can fly? No, it's just alot harder because the wind is pushing you from the side instead of from the front or back.
What I mean is, if a 25,000 pound thrust jet is running full throttle, you are gointg to have a micro climate around the plane were air is being ****ed into the engine and out the back at such a high speed, winds are created.
Click to expand...
http://www.bobjellison.com/Vigilante_photos/A5.jpeg
Then explain how that airplane flies. It creates wind, about 10 feet behind where the wings are, where the air is needed. But the airplane still moves. Why? Because it's pushing air through at such a high speed that it causes the plane to move.
The JSF can take off without lift with thrust vectoring.
Click to expand...
Exactly. See? It has nothing to do with "wind over wings"
But can VTOL aircraft fly straight forward without lift? No. The engines have to point forward to push the plane through the air. Now at first, it will descend a little, but once it gets up to speed it will fly normally.
The air chucked out of the back of the engines does not pass over and under the wings therefore it provides no lift.
Click to expand...
Right. Then how does an airplane take off when there is no wind?

Durk a dur. Think before you post.

The ENGINE pushes the AIRPLANE causing AIR to flow UNDER the WING (how? When the airplane moves, the air is moving relative to the plane) which creates the lift. That's how airplanes work. Welcome to Aviation 101

Now the engines are acting as a force seperate from from the wheels and the treadmill. Back to the car on the treadmill. My hand would act as an outside force pushing the car on the treadmill. The engines act as an outside force pushing the airplane on the treadmill.


This whole thread would be alot easier if you guys knew anything about airplanes: you don't.

Tak is probably the smartest person here out of any of us.
 
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#220
worluk said:
show me the line where the problem states that the plane wont move forward?
You get that impression from a gif that has nothing (NOTHING) to do with the actual problem.
The plane will move forward!
Click to expand...

Its says so when it explains that this smart tradmill will match the speed of the plane.. it woulden't be matching the plane if its just maching the wheels and allowing it to roll down the treadmill at will.

That one line forces us to considder that this magic treadmill can somehow match, and counteract the speed of the plane itself.
 
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