Pixel Hunting

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Dwin

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Jun 10, 2007
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not to mention no matter how hard I tried I'd not be able to get my eyes to zoom in X2

You wouldn't need to in real life because your eyes work properly in real life.

Zoomng, like many other features already present in RO that are generally accepted, compensates for the limitations of gaming hardware. Do you see a little man in the bottom left corner of your vision in real life? No. But in real life you have a general idea of your physical state. When you hold onto objects, does text appear in front of you telling you whether it is light or heavy? No. But in real life, you have a natural sense of weight.

Can you magnify your vision in real life? No. But in real life, objects appear much bigger and with much more clarity than you see on your monitor.

It's the same principle.

The only reason I defend the current mechanics is because they work!
Do they? The mechanics only work if they work realistically, as RO tries to simulate realistic gunplay. Realistic gunplay is a result of players having realistic abilities and realistic limitations. Being able to only see things at half their normal size and having half your normal field of view are unrealistic limitations, resulting in unrealistic gunplay.
 

REZ

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Nov 21, 2005
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Some Dude said:
You wouldn't need to in real life because your eyes work properly in real life. -clip-

Thanks for the condescending tone as though I didnt understand the 'principle' behind it.. :rolleyes:

Same Dude said:
Do they? The mechanics only work if they work realistically, as RO tries to simulate realistic gunpl-clip-.

Again with the condescending tone. You act like the zooming is realistic and that it doesnt add it's own hosts of unrealistic problems. You dont gain peripheral when you zoom, and to be honest, a guy hiding 100 meters away in real life looks like a speck/pixel sooo..

Would you rather have a more challenging game or larger targets. I know what I'd like. I'd like my vision to act the way it does when I pull my rifle up to my face irl. I make up for hardware limitations with practice and skill while in game, you can keep the zoom.

..and I'd really like to stop having to come in here and post this crap, but I keep getting quoted, so knock it off already - you're getting your damned zoom, now shaddap and be happy.

:IS2:
 

Fedorov

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Dec 8, 2005
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Would you rather have a more challenging game or larger targets. I know what I'd like. I'd like my vision to act the way it does when I pull my rifle up to my face irl. I make up for hardware limitations with practice and skill while in game, you can keep the zoom.

..and I'd really like to stop having to come in here and post this crap, but I keep getting quoted, so knock it off already - you're getting your damned zoom, now shaddap and be happy.

A multiplayer game's challenge is directly proportional to your opponent's skill, anything outside that, is fighting against the game itself. Most will agree that fighting against the game is not a good thing.

Its the same as wanting to play a game with bugs because the bugs make it harder and therefore "more challenging".

Try to play the game with only one hand if that helps you feel challenged.

:IS2:
 

REZ

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Nov 21, 2005
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Oh ffs man, let it go. Stop quoting me. You're making us both look stupid. I feel like I'm in one of those circular arguments about religion :rolleyes:

You're gonna get your larger targets and magic breathing. Thats the end of it.
 
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Blimey

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LoL Rez :D
Magic breathing
vuvuzela.gif
 

babokitty

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A multiplayer game's challenge is directly proportional to your opponent's skill, anything outside that, is fighting against the game itself. Most will agree that fighting against the game is not a good thing.

Its the same as wanting to play a game with bugs because the bugs make it harder and therefore "more challenging".

Try to play the game with only one hand if that helps you feel challenged.

:IS2:

There's something wrong when your opponent see's you 4 times larger than you see him. If you manage to spot an enemy far away who is only a few pixels large, you can assume it will be just as hard for him to hit you as for you to hit him. Similary, if a cursory scan over the horizon fails to reveal any obvious enemies, you can assume they are at pixel hunting distances. You can then weigh the risk/reward of breaking cover to advance. With FOV zoom, you cannot assume the enemy has the same view as you. Instead, you'll be forced to use your ironsights like binoculars, using your magical eye zoom to scan the horizon every few seconds. NOT REALISTIC AT ALL!!!
 

Xendance

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There's something wrong when your opponent see's you 4 times larger than you see him. If you manage to spot an enemy far away who is only a few pixels large, you can assume it will be just as hard for him to hit you as for you to hit him. Similary, if a cursory scan over the horizon fails to reveal any obvious enemies, you can assume they are at pixel hunting distances. You can then weigh the risk/reward of breaking cover to advance. With FOV zoom, you cannot assume the enemy has the same view as you. Instead, you'll be forced to use your ironsights like binoculars, using your magical eye zoom to scan the horizon every few seconds. NOT REALISTIC AT ALL!!!

Scanning the horizon? Not realistic, I agree. :IS2:
 

SheepDip

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There's something wrong when your opponent see's you 4 times larger than you see him. If you manage to spot an enemy far away who is only a few pixels large, you can assume it will be just as hard for him to hit you as for you to hit him. Similary, if a cursory scan over the horizon fails to reveal any obvious enemies, you can assume they are at pixel hunting distances. You can then weigh the risk/reward of breaking cover to advance. With FOV zoom, you cannot assume the enemy has the same view as you. Instead, you'll be forced to use your ironsights like binoculars, using your magical eye zoom to scan the horizon every few seconds. NOT REALISTIC AT ALL!!!


Surely though a soldier in a dug in position, rifle on sandbag covering an area should have some advantage over the soldier just casually walking around or glancing? The dug in soldier is more likely to notice movement on the terrain and his eyes do not need to focus or adjust to light.

I'm all for sacraficing a small amount of periphery for a "focussed" view down the barrel of a gun (nothing silly like 4x zoom though...)
 
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MikkOwl

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May 15, 2009
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I am most pleased that Tripwire are dealing with that (for me at least) nasty aspect of the view controls. :) A year or two ago I read the long original topic where Tripwire tried to justify why R.O. was locked to 75 (or whatever it is).

A monitor can at the most only simulate one of the real eye's abilities at a time out of three:

1. Peripheral vision (180 degrees FOV)
2. True scale/size (FOV depends on size of monitor and player's distance from it, usually around FOV 30-40).
3. Detail/resolution (Even if things are to scale on the monitor, the resolution is worse than the real eye and so you still see worse than you would in reality. The FOV required for this depends on monitor size, distance from it, and the resolution setting of the monitor. A healthy eye probably has a resolution about 4 times that of a modern screen so FOV ~15 for most peoples' setups).

Each is a compromise. Neither is more realistic than another. All are needed for realism and proper gameplay. The player thus needs to be able to employ the different views for what the situation requires. We need Peripheral to navigate properly, to see close threats in the corner of our eye - this for real close quarters combat (we don't need 180 FOV for navigation however, and we can adequately see and fire at enemies at close range even in wide FOV; a smaller cone with threat icons along the edges can be a reasonable setup). The true to scale FOV and detail are necessary to judge scale, distance and identify objects, terrain and threats at realistic distances - not to mention gunnery at medium and long ranges.

The issue of some having better monitors and sit closer to them than others is the same regardless of having old Red Orchestra with FOV 75 or having three varying view modes.

I my greatest wish is for a few options to customize to one's preferences in HoS. Allow people to set their FOVS to whatever they want within some reasonable range (say FOV 30 to 170). Also to toggle the way they want it to behave. For example, have an extra wide FOV that automatically employs when sprinting.

Note that we get some pretty nasty tunnel vision in real life when shouldering and aiming a rifle or SMG - the head leans to the right, turns to the right and also tilts forward. Not much in ways of vision to the sides.

Also note that the real eye has only good resolution and color perception in a small cone called the "Yellow Spot". Humans move this across things we want to see or that which draws our attention. The rest is worse and worse resolution and goes to greyscale the further away from center it gets. In this sense, tunnel vision when using more realistic views is not as bad as it seems.

The 'snapshot' issue is misguided. The weapon sights are not centered in the screen in HoS, they move around. Takes longer to aim from scratch. Also the 'must be in smallest FOV possible so I spot people before they spot me' is unwise. There is a time to look for threats and there is a time to move. Having a lower FOV does not guarantee that one will spot someone before they spot you. That has more to do with movement that attracts attention from the eye, siluetting and stuff like that. Like reality, have to choose where to direct your focus (you would not scan the sky or ground below you, would you?).

The gameplay video was interesting. Lots of cool things. The thing that mostly concerns me now is how the MG34 is weilded like it was an SMG, maybe even faster. No one could possibly run around like that with a huge machine gun. Deploying the bipod with such speeds is impossible. Takes 5-10 times longer in reality I am sure. Hopefully heavy weapons will make the user just plain slower at everything except pulling the trigger.
 

Fedorov

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Dec 8, 2005
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when you are running in the open to get to a cover, the last thing you are doing is spotting the enemies... you run to cover and then try to spot them... if you are gonna just stand there in the open, scan, bring up the sights to kill the dug up guy... with or without zoom, chances are that you're a dead man.

:IS2:
 

=GG= Mr Moe

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 16, 2006
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Perhaps you should be allowed to go into this Zoom mode without going to iron sights as long as you aren't running or jogging. Right now I am trying to think of this Zoom mode as more of a Focus mode.

At the same time, I too would get tired of going back and forth everytime I go to iron sights. As a rifleman, I go in and out of iron sights about as often as Rez. It would be nice to toggle this effect or turn it off.
 

Reise

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Feb 1, 2006
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Note that we get some pretty nasty tunnel vision in real life when shouldering and aiming a rifle or SMG - the head leans to the right, turns to the right and also tilts forward. Not much in ways of vision to the sides.

Also note that the real eye has only good resolution and color perception in a small cone called the "Yellow Spot". Humans move this across things we want to see or that which draws our attention. The rest is worse and worse resolution and goes to greyscale the further away from center it gets. In this sense, tunnel vision when using more realistic views is not as bad as it seems.

Everyone is different, and I'm not sure at all about the "nasty tunnel vision" when aiming weapons. Never experienced that myself. Some people have excellent peripheral vision and can see color throughout their range of view. Personally I suffer no loss in vision when aiming with any of my own weapons, peripherals function as well as when I'm not aiming.

The idea of resolution when talking about the human eye is irrelevant, basically apples and oranges. The same as it is with refresh rates and what eyes can really perceive.

The gameplay video was interesting. Lots of cool things. The thing that mostly concerns me now is how the MG34 is weilded like it was an SMG, maybe even faster. No one could possibly run around like that with a huge machine gun. Deploying the bipod with such speeds is impossible. Takes 5-10 times longer in reality I am sure. Hopefully heavy weapons will make the user just plain slower at everything except pulling the trigger.

MG34s aren't exactly "huge". You can be sure that Tripwire knows just how maneuverable somebody could have been while carrying one. "Deploying" with a bipod is as simple as resting the weapon on the ground.
 

Oldih

Glorious IS-2 Comrade
Nov 22, 2005
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Deploying the bipod with such speeds is impossible. Takes 5-10 times longer in reality I am sure.

Given you actually pre-adjust the bipod for deployed position (which isn't that uncommon with LMGs) and just set the bipod on tight enough all it takes is to 'slam' the bipod on any surface that is sufficient for the task, position yourself properly and start shooting - practically we're speaking less than three seconds given it's not some odd snake-like position you're crawling into.
 

MikkOwl

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 15, 2009
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Everyone is different, and I'm not sure at all about the "nasty tunnel vision" when aiming weapons. Never experienced that myself. Some people have excellent peripheral vision and can see color throughout their range of view. Personally I suffer no loss in vision when aiming with any of my own weapons, peripherals function as well as when I'm not aiming.
I am not saying that peripheral vision goes away from the eyes, but that the head itself is angled down, side and tilted to fit the cheeck against stock and aiming eye aligned with the iron sights. This applies only to shouldered two handed weapons and gets worse the further forward the supporting hand is placed. A proper stance for shooting self-loading weapons (forward leaned) also makes it worse. Crouching also makes it worse, and probably worst would be prone position.

Example: right handed, shooting a K98 standing up. Because you tilt the head sideways to the right towards the stock, you will be able to see the ground to your lower right in the corner of your eye, but not things level with your head. That will be obscured by the eyebrow bone.

The idea of resolution when talking about the human eye is irrelevant, basically apples and oranges. The same as it is with refresh rates and what eyes can really perceive.
Oh, why is that? If it was irrellevant then it would not matter if we played with 640x480 or 4096x2400 at the same size display.

Refresh rates as in frames per second? That too makes a large difference depending on the circumstance, although I doubt anyone could easily spot a difference between 80 and 200. I agree this is irellevant for it is purely up to the user hardware - Tripwire can do nothing about it.

MG34s aren't exactly "huge". You can be sure that Tripwire knows just how maneuverable somebody could have been while carrying one. "Deploying" with a bipod is as simple as resting the weapon on the ground.
Given you actually pre-adjust the bipod for deployed position (which isn't that uncommon with LMGs) and just set the bipod on tight enough all it takes is to 'slam' the bipod on any surface that is sufficient for the task, position yourself properly and start shooting - practically we're speaking less than three seconds given it's not some odd snake-like position you're crawling into.
Tripwire may know how long it takes, but I don't think they would implement it.

It weighs 12.1kg, probably 13.6kg if counting a 50 cartridge drum inserted. Another 2kg is for the spare barrel carried (but is in the backpack or something). This is equivalent to 3