Pixel Hunting

[Hans Ludwig]

I was wondering if RO : HOS will implement some type of zoom that Arma2 and WWIIONLINE have? I know adding some type of zoom feature is a touchy subject, but I believe these two games I mentioned have it down were it feels more realistic. I for one am tired of pixel hunting.

Discuss. =]

 

[slavek]

I think the team did a test with realism and FOV zoom. I forgot but I think they ended up supporting it.

 

[Mormegil]

It's in the leaked footage, so unless they changed their mind, it's in there.

 

[Hans Ludwig]

It's in the leaked footage, so unless they changed their mind, it's in there.

Is that one where you can find it in two parts on Youtube from one of the game conventions? Or is it something else?

I think the team did a test with realism and FOV zoom. I forgot but I think they ended up supporting it.

I hope so. That is one thing I can't stand about RO. After playing Arma2, it makes it a little harder to play the game these days.

 

[REZ]

I'm sure it's probably just me but... I like pixel hunting. Anything that makes the game more of a challenge I'm for.

 

[Flogger23m]

I'm sure it's probably just me but... I like pixel hunting. Anything that makes the game more of a challenge I'm for.

I like it to.

In real life at distances, you "blob hunt" anyways.


But yes, in the old videos, there is multiple levels of zoom.

 

[Zennousha]

I'm sure it's probably just me but... I like pixel hunting. Anything that makes the game more of a challenge I'm for.

That's sadly not the biggest problem I have with it. Sure pixel hunting sucks, but it sucks even more when it's only a pixel of their helmet out the corner of the window while they have full vision of the area and full capability to shoot you down.

 

[Xendance]

Pixel hunting isn't gone, the range of pixel hunting just got pushed back.

 

[Bobdog]

Quote from Ramm-Jaeger on the subject:

3) FOV Zoom - those of you that have been around long enough know that I was VERY against having any type of FOV zoom in Red Orchestra. There have been some very heated discussions between myself and people in the community, and even between me and other members of the dev team. As hard as people tried, they could never make a compelling argument for FOV Zoom being realistic, since all their arguments were based on personal interpretation (i.e. when I look at something it gets more in "focus") rather than factual evidence.

When doing research for ROHOS, we decided to do a scientific investigation into how the human eye works, and how large objects would need to appear on screen to be the same size as they would be in real life. We used as a baseline a 19" monitor (standard aspect ratio) and a 21" monitor (widescreen aspect ratio). We went out to a football field and measured with a pair of calipers placed a standard distance from a persons eye how large a person appeared to be at different distances (out to 100 meters). To sum up our findings, to appear to be "real life size" on the player's screen, you have to decrease the FOV (zoom in) a little over 2x. In other words, in RO:Ost, somone 100 meters away in game appears 2x smaller than they would in real life, thus making it much HARDER than real life to shoot them. This lead to what many refer to as "pixel hunting". Now in ROHOS, with the FOV zoom when using controlled breathing objects in the world appear their real life size. This not only has made the game more realistic, it has also both made the game easier, and made long range firefights a lot more fun and practical.

So in conclusion, I was the biggest hater of FOV zoom going into our research, but the facts proved me wrong.

For the full post, click the second link in my signature.

 

[Poerisija]

Despite all the claims on scientific research, it still doesn't justify zoom in my eyes.

 

[Hans Ludwig]

Quote from Ramm-Jaeger on the subject:



For the full post, click the second link in my signature.

God bless Tripwire!

 

[REZ]

Well in the quote it says it makes the game easier sooo.. I'm automatically skeptical. I fear snap ironsight shooting under certain distances (obviously much further out than it is currently) will be unstoppable since you wont be able to miss with zoom; whomever pops IS first wins, no amount of movement will cause a miss cause you're so big on a players screen sort of thing.

...and since such 'scientific' efforts were made into figuring out zoom (calipers, football fields), it makes me wonder if the areas that were scouted in Russia were measured exactly (tape measures, building distances) so as to coincide with the now 'realistic' zooming vision; or will the distances in the maps be guessed at based on photos.

Regardless of it being perceived as more realistic, it's all about game mechanics to me, and this just may change how the game feels and plays in a big way. It's like, hey there's an enemy.. let me press the 'make-him-larger button' so i cant miss .

I wonder if zoom was added because someone on the dev team got tired of people zig-zagging and dodging up-close fire..

 

[Oldih]

I fear snap ironsight shooting under certain distances (obviously much further out than it is currently) will be unstoppable since you wont be able to miss with zoom; whomever pops IS first wins, no amount of movement will cause a miss cause you're so big on a players screen sort of thing.

If they are taking account handshaking properly aswell then it probably isn't a huge problem. In RO there's two stages mostly: your gun has 100% perfect accuracy for a second or two and swaying like you're a drunk marathon runner out of breath.

 

[NoxNoctum]

Ya I really hope they take out the ability to hide behind cover and pop up and take a perfect shot and do that multiple times firing at the exact same point.

 

[Dwin]

Despite all the claims on scientific research, it still doesn't justify zoom in my eyes.

Why not? Because eyes in real life cannot magnify images?

Well eyes in real life don't have a 80 degree field of view compressed into a space of a computer monitor either.

Well in the quote it says it makes the game easier sooo.. I'm automatically skeptical. I fear snap ironsight shooting under certain distances (obviously much further out than it is currently) will be unstoppable since you wont be able to miss with zoom; whomever pops IS first wins, no amount of movement will cause a miss cause you're so big on a players screen sort of thing.

...and since such 'scientific' efforts were made into figuring out zoom (calipers, football fields), it makes me wonder if the areas that were scouted in Russia were measured exactly (tape measures, building distances) so as to coincide with the now 'realistic' zooming vision; or will the distances in the maps be guessed at based on photos.

Regardless of it being perceived as more realistic, it's all about game mechanics to me, and this just may change how the game feels and plays in a big way. It's like, hey there's an enemy.. let me press the 'make-him-larger button' so i cant miss .

I wonder if zoom was added because someone on the dev team got tired of people zig-zagging and dodging up-close fire..

The purpose of the zoom is to make shooting as easy as it is in real life. Since the point of this game is to be realistic, aiming is only too easy if it is easier than in real life. Besides, people miss in real life, and the targets you can see in real life are much bigger than those you see on screen.

Besides, since when was not being able to see some kind of skill mechanic? Zooming simply makes it easier to see. It doesn't assist with aiming in any way. The skill is in your ability to place your iron sights on the target, and if you watched the gameplay videos, you will notice that everything on the screen zooms in, which means the relative size of your sights compared to your target remains the same.

 

[REZ]

Well since the rear sight and front sight of the gun are locked to each other like a laser beam when you go into iron sights, it's actually pretty easy to line up where the iron sights will be on your screen before you even press the iron sight button. So as it is, plenty of people can do a snap iron sight shot at considerable distances on opponents who arent more than partially behind cover; successfully aiming before they even go into iron sights.

The only recourse a player has against this is the chance to predict when the opponent is going to try a snap iron sight shot and then hopefully start making dodge moves right before he does it. If the screen zooms in when going into iron sights, I feel like it might take away from the ability to dodge at an even further distance than is available now since the enemy will be much larger on screen. It may in fact make it easier to pre-aim before going into iron sights since, again, the target will be larger. This of course is a game mechanic that we'll all have to wait to see how it plays out.

I'm not trying to be a negative nancy by expressing concern. I've played the game for a long time (I love it, I care about it) and when I hear of new features I try to visualize how they might play out. I totally respect the attempt at realism with the zoom, it's extremely important to be as realistic as possible if you're going to make a game built around real life events, but I also feel that game mechanics which create exciting dynamics should always stand above strict realism which could very easily choke the fun from a game. (and no, this isnt me assuming what I like is what everyone else likes)

Besides, since when was not being able to see some kind of skill mechanic?

I'm going to have to flat out question what you mean here. What do you mean by not being able to see? I can see just fine.. maybe a little too well since the avatars dont blend in with the backgrounds at all. I'm actually more inclined to travel the road Oldih was talking about when he mentioned overall gun control/sway. Working with the gun control aspect may bring more balance alongside the zoom. The fact that the front and rear sights will always be locked to one another creates a big handicap when you're going for realistic gunplay. I've proposed a Track IR solution to this but it was met with skepticism for the most part (which is understandable because Track IR isnt free, but that doesnt mean it couldnt be an option available to server admins).

 

[Mormegil]

Well since the rear sight and front sight of the gun are locked to each other like a laser beam when you go into iron sights, it's actually pretty easy to line up where the iron sights will be on your screen before you even press the iron sight button.

Might depend on how the IS free-aim works. The final zoom-in happens when you hold your breath. It's possible, that might cause a shift in aim when you inhale. Same with popping up. It's pretty easy for TWI to put in a quick sway up when you pop up, that you have to correct for. It seems more realistic, and doesn't seem hard to implement.

 

[Zetsumei]

Sadly for people using a laptop things will still look too small, and people using a big monitor things will still look too big. And some people sit further and closer to their screens. Unless the zoom factor adapts based on resolution and graphics card or something there will be loads of people that won't have the correct zoom amount for their screens.

What I don't like about the fov zoom myself, is that you have different view stages rather than one size fits all. In zoomed version things do not only become less pixellated and at a realistic size. If something is 2x zoomed in (which seems to be about the amount), an enemy is 4 times bigger in area on your screen making an enemy a lot easier to notice and spot. While in the fov mode, an enemy is harder to spot.

Aka people won't only use the zoom to make the shooting less pixelated but use it to actually spot the enemies. This is generally no issue as everybody can see in a 1:1 ratio in real life. However in this zoomed version you lack a big part of your peripheral vision, and I somehow doubt twi will make the peripheral meter display enemies at 400meters. Which forces you to move around your mouse frantically to look around. As an entrenched enemy somewhere will sure be using the zoom look to spot you.

Aka a user with this system must choose to either use the peripheral vision function of the eyes or see things at a real-life size and continuously switch between them. While normally you can use both at the same time.

Next to that if you can only look zoomed while in iron sight, then that means that beside the natural advantage of defenders, of hardly any movement, cover and concealment. That now the defenders will be able to see things at real life size. While the attackers that need to move and thus cannot be in the iron sights constantly, see things at half the size in real life.

For this reason I hope that you can use the zoom button at all times, even when not iron sighted. As normally you can always see things in 100% size, rather than only being able to see things at a 100% size while looking through unmagnified iron sights. So you don't have to be too static while scanning your surroundings.

 

[Poerisija]

Why not? Because eyes in real life cannot magnify images?

Well eyes in real life don't have a 80 degree field of view compressed into a space of a computer monitor either.

Yes, because eyes in real life don't zoom in.

Yes, we don't have 80 degree field of view either, but aren't they adding a peripheral vision indicator?


I'm against both. Shooting in RO worked fine, why change it?

 

[reyalpOR]

Yes, because eyes in real life don't zoom in.

Yes, we don't have 80 degree field of view either, but aren't they adding a peripheral vision indicator?


I'm against both. Shooting in RO worked fine, why change it?

Full circle the very reason this thread was started, Pixel Hunting.