People are just itchin to get back to RO2

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Josef Nader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
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Pay attention: Invasion 44 is Mod for "Arma 2: Combined Operations" that's Arma2 + Arma2: Operation Arrowhead. It does not work with Arma2 OR Arma2:OA.

I agree with Icey_Pain: Arma2 can be fun if played with known teammates, in TS. It's not a game for guys who want to fight in their happy hour.

You need to schedule the matches.

TrackIr and ACRE are amazing, the game is not so fluid as RO2, sadly netcode is a problem for some.

After RO1 and above all Darkest Hour I was expecting RO2 to be something better than this... :-(

Invasion 44 - Colleville Sur Mer Attack - YouTube

That does look pretty amazing, but the only thing I can see that prevents RO2 from being like that is map size.

The maps are really what's constraining the gameplay right now. They're just too damn small. Give it a few months and let the community get their hands on the SDK proper, and we'll get some nice, big combined arms countryside maps.

It's coming.
 

Squad Leader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 26, 2011
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That does look pretty amazing, but the only thing I can see that prevents RO2 from being like that is map size.

The maps are really what's constraining the gameplay right now. They're just too damn small. Give it a few months and let the community get their hands on the SDK proper, and we'll get some nice, big combined arms countryside maps.

It's coming.

The problem with that though is the fact that peoples PC's won't be able to handle larger maps, unless they make them very generic. People are already whining and complaing about their system requirements on these smaller but very detailed maps.
 

ightenhill

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 17, 2009
382
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Im not even sure this new version of the modified engine can handle large maps (look how poor the one tank map is).. Would love to have this confirmed yay or nay

It is a simple truth though.. On big large maps your not funnelled with Linear play.. You cant really go off on your own one man duke nukem asault and tactics are almost forced on you.. With the small maps we have now you can literally just run and gun as a one man band.
 
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Squad Leader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 26, 2011
167
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0
It is a simple truth though.. On big large maps your not funnelled with Linear play.. You cant really go off on your own one man duke nukem asault and tactics are almost forced on you.. With the small maps we have now you can literally just run and gun as a one man band.

That doesn't make any sense at all.
 
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Josef Nader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
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Im not even sure this new version of the modified engine can handle large maps (look how poor the one tank map is).. Would love to have this confirmed yay or nay

It is a simple truth though.. On big large maps your not funnelled with Linear play.. You cant really go off on your own one man duke nukem asault and tactics are almost forced on you.. With the small maps we have now you can literally just run and gun as a one man band.

Not to mention that it's trivial to snipe someone from 25-50m with a high-powered rifle. And everyone is forced to fight at ranges the SMG dominates at. And the LMG can't get good sightlines or ranges on most of the maps.

We have mechanics perfect for big maps on tiny little confined maps. It's just not gelling well.

On the plus side, rural maps will never -have- to be as detailed as urban maps. We don't need the tons of props and models on every corner to make it look realistic. More open ground with scattered points of detail, like a destroyed farmhouse or barn loaded with tools. Everything else is just terrain deformation.

That doesn't make any sense at all.

Actually, it does.

Look at Apartments, for example. You have two choices. Attack/Defend the left, or attack/defend the right. Proceed to fight over one of two points that are very close together.

In a big open map like in the video, you have all kinds of opportunities for approaching from unusual angles, and there is a much broader area that defenders need to be mindful of. It's also a lot more open, meaning it's a lot harder for attackers to cross it without getting torn up by a machine gun or rifle fire.

As it stands now, it's just linear streets and claustrophobic buildings. Not good for these mechanics at all.
 
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6S.Manu

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 6, 2011
79
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That does look pretty amazing, but the only thing I can see that prevents RO2 from being like that is map size.

The maps are really what's constraining the gameplay right now. They're just too damn small. Give it a few months and let the community get their hands on the SDK proper, and we'll get some nice, big combined arms countryside maps.

It's coming.

I've hope in Mods but RO2 and this Arma2 Mod are so much different.

And Mod Invasion 44 is not so different from stock Arma2 if not for weapon's rest and some little details (and 3D models, of course). People need to understand that 3D models and graphics are not anymore the hard part of the development. They are time consuming, but a great game needs to have much more than amazing graphics (look at "Cliffs of Dover").

Player's stamina and health, weapon's sway and recoil, inventory management, a great sound engine... anyway RO2 is better for tanks' DM.
I would like if the difference was only the map's size... sadly Arma2 is much more. The mods need to rebuild the gameplay almost totally.
 
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ightenhill

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 17, 2009
382
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Nps.

We have mechanics perfect for big maps on tiny little confined maps. It's just not gelling well.

On the plus side, rural maps will never -have- to be as detailed as urban maps. We don't need the tons of props and models on every corner to make it look realistic. More open ground with scattered points of detail, like a destroyed farmhouse or barn loaded with tools. Everything else is just terrain deformation.



A.

Thats good to here as i suspect with care and use of the new lighting these maps could look even better than Armas

It would be interetsing to find what size Rising Storm have gone for as it would be a pity if we ended up with basically Red Orchestra 2s cramped super fast gameplay in a different setting
 

Josef Nader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
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I've hope in Mods but RO2 and this Arma2 Mod are so much different.

And Mod Invasion 44 is not so different from stock Arma2 if not for weapon's rest and some little details (and 3D models, of course). People need to understand that 3D models and graphics are not anymore the hard part of the development. They are time consuming, but a great game needs to have much more than amazing graphics (look at "Cliffs of Dover").

Player's stamina and health, weapon's sway and recoil, inventory management, a great sound engine... anyway RO2 is better for tanks' DM.
I would like if the difference was only the map's size... sadly Arma2 is much more. The mods need to rebuild the gameplay almost totally.

I understand what you're saying, mate, but I don't agree. TWI gave us "realistic" weapon mechanics, meaning that rifles are accurate out to 600m, SMGs are accurate out to 200m, etc. As it stands, the CQC combat doesn't function well with these mechanics. Everything is -incredibly- lethal, because, as I said, it isn't that hard to consistently hit a helmet-sized target at 50m in real life. The game is suffering because of it.

The game -may- need some tweaking, but we won't be sure till we see how it performs on bigger maps. I get the feeling that once the average firefight range extends out to 200+ meters and we have room to be tactical, the gameplay is going to -drastically- change. Firefights will be much longer and more drawn out, there will be a lot more tactical play, and teamwork will become much more important.

Just be patient and see what happens.
 

Squad Leader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 26, 2011
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Actually, it does.

Look at Apartments, for example. You have two choices. Attack/Defend the left, or attack/defend the right. Proceed to fight over one of two points that are very close together.

In a big open map like in the video, you have all kinds of opportunities for approaching from unusual angles, and there is a much broader area that defenders need to be mindful of. It's also a lot more open, meaning it's a lot harder for attackers to cross it without getting torn up by a machine gun or rifle fire.

As it stands now, it's just linear streets and claustrophobic buildings. Not good for these mechanics at all.

I guess I didn't understand how this person described the situation. Urban warfare demands different tactics compared to rural - that is obvious. But, I don't agree with the cop out of Duke Nukem mind set. You need more tactics in this environment to be succesful. Do assualt teams just mindlessly run into buildings throwing smoke and grenades? The answer is No. You need a plan of attack before you engage the enemy. People should play Rainbow 6: Eagle Watch to get an idea how urban warfare is conducted. Not all of us are experienced or knowledgable on how this works.

Bolt actions and machine guns are not going to be as useful as machine pistols in this environment. Everyone that has any knowledge of warfare should have known this anyways to begin with. Why do you think the German Sixth Army had such a struggle in Stalingrad? It's because they were armed for rural combat. Germans at the time were besiegers and never planned to waste resources in assaulting cities. Stalingrad was different because Hitler was a fanatic and wanted to crush the Russians their in a decisive monolithic victory for poltical and morale reasons.

Red Orchestra 2 is a great representation of this style of warfare. If people are disapointed because they don't have another style that is not Tripwires fault.
 

Josef Nader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 31, 2011
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I guess I didn't understand how this person described the situation. Urban warfare demands different tactics compared to rural - that is obvious. But, I don't agree with the cop out of Duke Nukem mind set. You need more tactics in this environment to be succesful. Do assualt teams just mindlessly run into buildings throwing smoke and grenades? The answer is No. You need a plan of attack before you engage the enemy. People should play Rainbow 6: Eagle Watch to get an idea how urban warfare is conducted. Not all of us are experienced or knowledgable on how this works.

Bolt actions and machine guns are not going to be as useful as machine pistols in this environment. Everyone that has any knowledge of warfare should have known this anyways to begin with. Why do you think the German Sixth Army had such a struggle in Stalingrad? It's because they were armed for rural combat. Germans at the time were besiegers and never planned to waste resources in assaulting cities. Stalingrad was different because Hitler was a fanatic and wanted to crush the Russians their in a decisive monolithic victory for poltical and morale reasons.

Red Orchestra 2 is a great representation of this style of warfare. If people are disapointed because they don't have another style that is not Tripwires fault.

I agree wholeheartedly. However, the tactics and gameplay are going to shift drastically once we have some rural maps and it's going to be a lot more like RO1. Slow, paced gameplay, working closely with teams, careful positioning, and extended firefights that are a far cry from the fast, violent urban combat.

It'll be a lot more like what the RO1 vets are wanting, and admittedly, it's something I'm really looking forward to too.
 
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Squad Leader

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 26, 2011
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I agree wholeheartedly. However, the tactics and gameplay are going to shift drastically once we have some rural maps and it's going to be a lot more like RO1. Slow, paced gameplay, working closely with teams, careful positioning, and extended firefights that are a far cry from the fast, violent urban combat.

It'll be a lot more like what the RO1 vets are wanting, and admittedly, it's something I'm really looking forward to too.

That's not neccesarily true. People are not going to magicly become more "tactical" ( working closely with teams, careful positioning ) just because the maps are bigger. That doesn't make any sense. Even a previous poster said bigger lends to more lone wolf flanking play. The truth is you are "tactical" or you aren't. The stormtroopers I play with do this already.

The quality of the game depends on who you are playing with. If you jump on a random server with a bunch of kids on it and have a dissapointing time, that is your own fault. Most people don't care about tactics and all that. They just want to kill people. This game is perfect for killing and tactics, however. You just have to make an effort if you have the knowledge. But, that seems to much to ask nowadays.

One thing we can agree on is rural would be great too. :IS2:
 
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6S.Manu

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 6, 2011
79
13
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Josef, you miss some parts:

Player's movement and stamina:
There's inertia in the movement of the soldier, a great sway if you has run some meters, and it's almost impossible to fire when you are tired after a sprint (double click on W). You can't hit something at 200m if you are not fresh. It's hard to hit it at 100m too...

Player's health:
We've started to not begin a mission without medic: a scratch can male you suffer but does not affect your aim; a more serious localized wound and you can't aim at 50m or just can't stand up anymore. If you are alone and you are wounded you can press "Respawn".

Weapon's accuracy:
I've never fired a WW2 weapon. I can only speak of it after I've talked to guys who did it. And from what they say I find RO2 weapon's attitude very suspicious.
To start, weapons have been tweaked since the beta... if weapon model is accurate why did they changed it? Because it was not accurate or for a balance issue? The first or the second?
It's realistic a granade with a blast radius of 3 metres?
MGs who tilt upward after a short burst and have to be used as sniper weapon?

I'm going to do some test to see if the distance in Arma2 is more realistic than in RO2... by the way some weeks ago, when I find out bug in bullet penetration (I tried in only 2 places and in both weapons could penetrate brick walls!) I tried to hit one of my teammate who standed in a window at more than 200m (probably 270m, can't remember) to test zeroing: MG34 zeroed to 400m, I aimed and killed him with one shot... really accurate at wrong zeroing.

As you see it's not only a problem of maps... the run and gun system of RO2 is also a result of these issues.

Run, aim, fire... run, aim, fire.
 
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[TORO]Patosentado

FNG / Fresh Meat
Aug 15, 2011
175
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Spain
I guess I didn't understand how this person described the situation. Urban warfare demands different tactics compared to rural - that is obvious. But, I don't agree with the cop out of Duke Nukem mind set. You need more tactics in this environment to be succesful. Do assualt teams just mindlessly run into buildings throwing smoke and grenades? The answer is No. You need a plan of attack before you engage the enemy. People should play Rainbow 6: Eagle Watch to get an idea how urban warfare is conducted. Not all of us are experienced or knowledgable on how this works.

Bolt actions and machine guns are not going to be as useful as machine pistols in this environment. Everyone that has any knowledge of warfare should have known this anyways to begin with. Why do you think the German Sixth Army had such a struggle in Stalingrad? It's because they were armed for rural combat. Germans at the time were besiegers and never planned to waste resources in assaulting cities. Stalingrad was different because Hitler was a fanatic and wanted to crush the Russians their in a decisive monolithic victory for poltical and morale reasons.

Red Orchestra 2 is a great representation of this style of warfare. If people are disapointed because they don't have another style that is not Tripwires fault.
I agree with that... cal 45 (Thompson) was abandoned as SMG caliber because it was too powerful... and the WW2 rifle cartridges are now sniper rifle cartridges (7.62x54R) or abandoned (the 8mm Mauser)...
 

ightenhill

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 17, 2009
382
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So the answer would be to balance the whole game by having a better mix of maps that are less corridor like... Spartnovka probably comes nearest but it also suffers from size v speed and the large capture points.

I guess in simple terms with the current maps it just seems like a run in a straight line with no other real options (that you need bother with).. The only map that does seem to be used well with other techniques is red oktober factory.. I think some of my most enjoyable games have been on there when the players are working together and split and flank from both sides. It doesnt feel as quick on this map somehow.
 

DesiQ

FNG / Fresh Meat
Feb 5, 2011
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Australia
www.desiquintans.com
On the plus side, rural maps will never -have- to be as detailed as urban maps. We don't need the tons of props and models on every corner to make it look realistic. More open ground with scattered points of detail, like a destroyed farmhouse or barn loaded with tools. Everything else is just terrain deformation.
I honestly don't mind if they just look like RO1 maps, but with extra lighting.
 

Grobut

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 1, 2006
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The idea that big maps are the solution to all our problems is a fallacy.

I could mention no shortage of old tactical shooters that were running on engines incapable of making large outdoor maps, whose largest maps would make Appartments seem huge by comparison, and that didn't stop them, it did not make the gameplay regress into run and gun or pop-out snipers (and most of thease were modern shooters too, SMG's and AR's for almost everyone, semi-auto snipers and shotguns fro the rest).


Yes it is easier to encourage tactical play on an open map than it is in a tight urban map, this is true, but a good tactical shooter should have no problem doing both, it all comes down to the game's mechanics, if they properly reflect human limitations, then people have to adopt realistic playstyles to play them, and in a good Tac shooter this happens naturally for the same reasons it does in the real world, it's what works.

But Ro2 is no Tac shooter, and that's the problem, it comes very clouse to beeing one, we can point to features it has that are superbly realistic, but on the whole it drops the ball and lacks the conviction to go the distance, and doesen't take the critical final step to make them realistic enough to work, or for gamey alternatives to not work.


Bigger and more open maps will not solve this, all it will do is take the game from arcady gun and gun CQB furballs, to equally arcady snipeout camping fests, the underlying game mechanics must be solved before we'll get anywhere.


In truth there is nothing horribly wrong with the HoS maps, some balance problems, a few spawns would work better if moved a bit, things of that nature, but thouse could be fixed, and if the game mechanics were up to the task they would not be a problem. But they are, and it's not the maps fault, they could play as well as Odessa, Kessel or Leningrad if it weren't for bigger underlying issues with the game mechanics.


And the funny thing is, it's actually fairly small tweaks that are needed to get the game to where it needs to go, HoS has all the needed mechanics in place, they just aren't configured right for a Tac shooter.
But technically, we could say the same for the CoD games..

We're something like 90% there, the game just needs to take thouse crucial final steps to reach it's destination.
 

Colt .45 killer

Grizzled Veteran
May 19, 2006
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Thankyou grobut for coming in and lending some well written sanity to this thread. Btw its "close" not "clouse". ;)
 

ightenhill

FNG / Fresh Meat
May 17, 2009
382
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Yep I probably agree with most of that.. The reason I really want to advocate bigger maps is probably for immersion..

I prefer the idea that you spawn as a squad and then have time to organise and set off on your route towards the first objective without hitting the enemy within 3 seconds. Theres just no room to even breathe on the current maps.

Likewise the enemy shoudl be doing the same. In this way you create at least some tension as to where your going to hit the defence line and when.
 
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Sogeking99

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 7, 2011
8
6
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Yes if it ever reaches a point where I can get a playable FPS I will be eager to jump back form BF3 to RO2!