Pavlovs house

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Divinehammer

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Sunny, Obamalot
Please see the on-going thread over under level design. I have some questions about the battle around pavlovs that I could use some answers to. I have read the accounts online but they are not in depth enough. I realize some of you history guys may not check over there so I post here.
Some new questions I have is did 9th square have a monument in it? I also read somewhere that the Germans were attacking from a trench in front of the Milk factory is that true? Links and pics all appreciated. Thanks.
 

aktionman

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May 10, 2006
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Not more textual historical detail, but a suggestion to do a close study of:
  • Pavlov's map with attention to contour lines, gradients/heights, emplacements and compare the positions as indicated here with those on the black-and-white sketch map elsewhere
  • the available aerial photos
  • google earth views
  • art and other photos
Here is just a small sample of Pavlov's hand drawn after-action battle map and report from 25.11.42.

(Copy from my private archives / Original stored in the Volgograd State panoramic museum
 

Divinehammer

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well I have been steadily working on this when I get the time. I have roofs and attics on both buildings but when I look further at the after battle pics that Zobs house should not have a roof or attic floor on it what do you guys think? I would still like for a budding 3d builder to make some trolley car wire poles if they would like. I will post some pics when I can
 

Divinehammer

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Looking for two pieces of info currently on this battle
What German tanks would have been available during this time period?
What was the general temp range during the battle? I believe this is in Pavs memoirs
Also does anyone know why the panorama Museum does not have any photos or vid available of its giant diorama of stalingrad during the battle?
Thanks.
 

Nestor Makhno

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Feb 25, 2006
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The giant diorama has several inaccuracies in it so I would not go too strictly by what is in that. I have a few photos of it here:

http://www.tonygillham.com/albums/Panorama/

but I am not sure if they cover the area of Ploschad' 9 Yanvarya - have a look. It should be just pff the left top of Diorama 1.

In general, though, you might find something useable in any of these folders:

http://www.tonygillham.com/albums/

particularly in the file http://www.tonygillham.com/albums/Melnitsa/ - which is the mill that was just riverwards of the house.

I seriously need to organise this stuff again.

Snow started falling in earnest about mid-November 1942, before that the temperature would have dropped pretty much gradually from 25
 
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Divinehammer

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thanks that was what I was looking for I think I will use a PZIV short barrel with either Riders or the new smoke one from Minionz. On the temp I have it set to about 20 currently so looks I should be fine there. I found a good show on torrent from the history channel battlefield detectives it had some good info and live video of the mill, so for what its worth there you go. Thanks.
 

Nestor Makhno

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Well, DH - looks like you're in luck.

I had a little voice nagging me that I had some stuff related to pavlov's house stashed away somewhere and here it is:

pavlov_flyby_labelled.jpg


As you can see, the view is approximately northwards. This is from the book "163 days on the Streets of Stalingrad" by Yuriy Panchenko, who lived on Ul. Vologodskaya. The map below is his:

panchenko_map.jpg


The Stalingrad Military Political Institute (SVPU) was a big old building as the flyby clearly demonstrates. Here it is in 1952 after unsafe bits of the ruins had fallen/been pulled down, look at the size of the guy walking by for scale:

SVPU_52.jpg


Panchenko's house on ul. Vologodskaya is shown here in a 1952 photo. A lot of the buildings even a short distance from the centre looked like this in the period around the war. Even today you can see many such buildings in Volgograd. http://www.tonygillham.com/albums/Houses/ It's a safe bet that they were like these but flattened along that road and thereabouts in late 1942.

panchenko_house.jpg


Another interesting building thereabouts is the Workers' Club "Zhdanov" which was the old polish Church. It still stood after the war (I forgot to put it on the map - it's no. 12):

zhdanov_club.jpg


Just to round things off, here's an aerial taken by the Germans in Nov. 1942. You can see that ice floes are beginning to form on the Volga:

pavlov_aerial.jpg


Here's a closer look. Bear in mind that from the length of the shadows you can get an idea of the relative heights of the ruins.

pavlov_aerial_close.jpg


Here is a classic Stalingrad comms trench such as led up to the back of Pavlov's house:
s_comm_trench.jpg


Hope these help.
 
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Gamburd

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This is someone's interpretation of Pavlov's House at a miniature wargaming WWII event.

The cotton clusters represent smoke.



They made it longer in front and added a front section, so it isn't an accurate model at all, but I thought you might like to see it anyway:





It may give you some ideas about the roof section and how it may look based on this individual modeler's interpretation.
 
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Divinehammer

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Good stuff Gamburd thanks for keeping with me on this seems since I said I would pick this up noone else has bothered to help much except for Slyk and a few others. I think the way I have the roofs now I will have some firing positions but i dont want to open it up to much or everyone will go to the roof. I almost have the play area of the map enclosed setting up blocking volumes and mine fields now. I think I am going to put in the stug 3B for the first beta.
 

Gamburd

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Thanks. You might also be interested in reading Avalon Hill's Squad Leader board game's Scenario version of Pavlov's House.

It may or may not give you some additional ideas about the type of German and Soviet forces available in the Map, and some ideas for the Map.

Squad Leader was on a little bigger scale than RO. SL is recognized by board gamers as being one of the best board games ever created and perhaps the best WWII board game ever created.

SL was loosely based on William Craig's Enemy At The Gates, long before the book became a film.

I just thought you might want to look at this; I realize it is your Map and you can allocate the forces as you think best based on your research, especially since the games are different (though a little similar too).

I posted this also at the Pavlov's House Level thread, so I'll just reprint it here, with a few modifications:




That one boardgame SQUAD LEADER by Avalon Hill which I have mentioned before on other threads, had a scenario called Pavlov's House. You might want to use it as a reference if anyone gets around to making a map of it.


Obviously, I wouldn't copy the Scenario description verbatim word for word or anything like that.

But since this was a historical event, this may give you some ideas for your own RO version of the events.


www.wargameacademy.org/sqla/scenarios/index.html

The 2-3-7 units in SQUAD LEADER were tank / artillery crews of 4 men, and the RO Tank Crew Role would cover those soldiers.

The other units are squads of 10 infantrymen. 4-4-7 are riflemen; 6-2-8 units are PPSH sub-machineguns (they never really specified; nades were considered included in the unit's firepower); the 3 numbers respectively represent firepower, fire range, and finally something called morale which was unique to the game.

I imagine the higher firepower and more limited range had to do with the type of gun being used (which would make sense), as opposed to the men's individual strength and military experience, although that could have been a factor as well).

The individual standing soldiers were the Squad Leaders; the unit with the soldier lying down with the rifle is an individual Sniper.

The Light Machine Gun (LMG) is equivalent to the MGs on both sides in RO. IN SL, the LMG became a Heavy Machine gun (HMG) Unit if it was considered to be mounted on a solid tripod, with plenty of ammo and barrel changes, and fire around 1,000 Rounds Per Minute (RPM); if it was set up with a bipod and a small cylindral drum of ammo, it could fire 150 RPM; they don't really explain the MMG, but it probably means the gun has less ammo available.



To read the SQUAD LEADER version of the events, click on the link above, then click on the blue Avalon Hill Scenario link, and then a list of Avalon Hill scenarios will appear.

Scroll down, and click on Pavlov's House in, towards the end of the Cross of Iron section of the scenarios in the middle of the page.

You will be able to read the scenario; all you need is Adobe / Acrobat Reader which you can download for free if you do not have.
 
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Divinehammer

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Mar 9, 2006
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Sunny, Obamalot
I think that i posted my loadout so far it kind of breaks down like this
Ger
Stug 3B
x2armor
x1 SL
x4 SMG MP-40 + Nades
x2 MG34
rest are Rifle no nades
Rus
x1SL
x2AT
x1Sniper
x3DP28
x3smg
rest are rifles
 

aktionman

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May 10, 2006
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I think that i posted my loadout so far it kind of breaks down like this
Ger
[...]
rest are Rifle no nades
Rus
[...]
rest are rifles

If I may ask about this: afaik the number of grenades used in Stalingrad was stupendous, so perhaps to make it more true to life, they need to be available in rifleman loadouts?
 

Nestor Makhno

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Feb 25, 2006
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Every account of battles in Stalingrad I have read screams 'nade-spam'.

I even read about two adjacent houses held by the opposing sides in the Lower Settlement of Barrikady where they were lobbing nades between the two.

Anyone for frag tennis?
 

=GG= Mr Moe

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Ahhh, AH Squad Leader. Memories.... :) Still have all four original games and about half of the Advanced Squad Leader ones. Can't stand to part with them.

(sorry for the hijack)....Keep up the good work.
 

Trendkill

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Nov 21, 2006
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Do you think there where any other "Pavlovs houses" on the Eastern front? But they did not get famous? :)
Of course there were, probably every house or building on the frontline would have been turned into a strongpoint. Or do you mean outside of Stalingrad?
 

Divinehammer

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 9, 2006
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Sunny, Obamalot
If I may ask about this: afaik the number of grenades used in Stalingrad was stupendous, so perhaps to make it more true to life, they need to be available in rifleman loadouts?
I have no doubt that you are right but from a gameplay perspective I think nade spam would be a problem and german that got close would see grenades falling like rain. I dont think this would be very fun for the germans. SMG'ers (both sides) will have nades still though, probably give the RusSL nades instead of smoke. Personally I like the fun of a good old gun battle and I think on this map it will fit, it just adds that bit of desperation when you kill an enemy charging you.