Overall feedback from an INTJ

  • Please make sure you are familiar with the forum rules. You can find them here: https://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/index.php?threads/forum-rules.2334636/
  • Weve updated the Tripwire Privacy Notice under our Policies to be clearer about our use of customer information to come in line with the EU General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) rules that come into force today (25th May 2018). The following are highlights of our changes:


    We've incorporated the relevant concepts from the GDPR including joining the EU and Swiss Privacy Shield framework. We've added explanations for why and how Tripwire processes customer data and the types of data that we process, as well as information about your data protection rights.



    For more information about our privacy practices, please review the new Privacy Policy found here: https://tripwireinteractive.com/#/privacy-notice
Status
Not open for further replies.

fungame_dot_exe2

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 1, 2020
12
1
1
Sharpshooter, Gunslinger - these are the worst classes and make it impossible to survive if the team is low level.

Commando, Support - these are mostly useless but can carry the team in terms of total damage.

Firstly the actual damage dealt by weapons is poorly communicated to players, because of the damage bars versus the actual damage values on the wiki. Compare the Berserker rifle to any SMG or assault rifle. In game the damage per projectile is deceptively large. It is wrong; it's not even a matter of it not being to scale.

Sharpshooter is the worst class in the game. Not only do you get no innate weapon damage scaling with lvl, your perks are only useful when killing a Scrake/Fleshpound or a boss. And it's either that your team generally can get rid of them, or you are left on your own in which case it's no time to be standing still or crouching. In fact, these perks require so much conscious thinking, to get any advantage (the meat of which is clearing trash which SWAT can do) that it's just not worth it. Add to that, the Sharpshooter's weapons are semi-auto which again requires precision and weaving of conscious thought into what is for other classes (SWAT, Commando, Berserker, Support) an unconscious flow.

To understand what is meant by unconscious flow, read this article on flow and watch some Gears videos. Unconsciously we are making calculations in our aiming and in where to turn to (even where it's safe to maximize the number of exits/retreats, and which are dangerous zones). The best players learn how to lift conscious understandings about spatial units, spatial awareness, optimal steps and directions to achieve desired results - and put that into their continuous, fast, automatic unconscious mental routines, allowing them to access them at any time. You can then pull off things like headshots on 10 different enemies in a row - then swing 180 and deal with more enemies that some poor sap hasn't cleared any of. Or - we've all seen the players that survive as long as possible during the boss fight that everyone died on.

The point of talking about this, is that conscious versus unconscious thinking is very important. Particularly because, these are two prime different ways that the mind works. Gunslinger is the next worst class in the game, because like Sharpshooter, you have to consciously fret and worry about where the enemies' arms and legs are, every time you shoot. And that's semi-auto firing. Let's say you were a god at aiming and shooting as a Gunslinger.. even then, you would actually have to dedicate time to thinking and not just automatic unconscious thinking where you can zone out while you're doing it, but you would have to actually watch each zed's arms and legs, and watch to tell which direction they were facing, all before you take that shot. Every. Single. Time. And what DPS advantage do you get from that? What fun factor do you get?

Unconscious thinking is a lot cheaper than conscious thinking. Your unconscious focus can quickly switch in between aiming; turning around and dealing with that pesky Husk or crawler that you know about in the back of your mind; considering healing; keeping away from the direction of danger, or precise locations of danger; running versus shooting; swiftly shooting explosives at the feet of an enemy (jumping if it's near you); electing to go for headshots; weighing up how much health that Skrake or Fleshpound has left; maxmizing the number of enemies hit by an explosive splash damage. You cannot do this while chained to a semi-auto weapon and all that's implied by it - imagine an associated hierarchy of needs and considerations, like a pyramid, that apply to every weapon.

People play games to use unconscious thinking, and maybe if you are less of a Judging person, you'll try to maximize your contribution to the team (or your survival) by using semi-auto or melee weapons. Maybe you thought the game was designed with unconscious versus conscious thinking in mind - so that semi auto weapons really pack a punch that no automatics do; or maybe they do more DPS if your aiming and "tactical reloading" is good. Surely there should be a benefit for that extra risk, right? Well, no. SWAT if you're king of aiming can headshot to death 3 fleshpounds/QPs in a row, I did it once. SWAT has a bigger mag. That's fundamental to DPS calculations.

So it's hard to consistently hit anything at all when zeds are moving and when you have a couple of hand cannons. SMG/AR users don't have this problem. Again, it's fundamentally an unconscious versus conscious thinking problem: you have a one-track mind as regards shooting when you can spray until no zeds are left or until someone else is handling those zeds. It's easier. There is no stress. It's practically carefree.

This is me on wave 57 endless, using ARs. It's easy when you have ARs because you can just prioritize shooting, running, avoiding danger, and reloading. Under stress, you start missing. A Gunslinger has it even worse because of the lengthy reloads, trying to aim (thinking consciously about the thing you are looking at, rather than simply an outline to shoot) and even having to think when to shoot, at the potential cost of missing because of "poor trigger discipline". Well, it's kind of an impossible task. And who would go to those lengths just to shave a fraction more DPS?

Demolitionist is different because it deals splash damage. Splash damage can be useful clearing multiple zeds.. versus.. trying to headshot every trash zed as Sharpshooter. Or trying to swing your aim at each one (precisely) as Gunslinger. Demolitionist is a good class with Seeker Six, because of the 6 round mag. Demolitionist is fundamentally what you need on your team. The Demolitionist is somewhere between good unconscious flow (SWAT) and inconsistent unconscious flow (Gunslinger/Sharpshooter).

So, we can draw up some DPS values for each class - but that's only theoretical DPS, and always will be. Actual DPS would have to factor in mag size, bullet spread (P90 versus MP5RAS), dmg perks, reload speed perks, and then class specific variables like damage reduction, Berserker's healing.. and how much of a load regarding conscious thought, is that weapon going to be. Melee weapons would be the least in terms of a load on your conscious mind. C4 and semi-auto weapons are the most demanding.

It's not a bad thing to have to use conscious thought. Some games feature it, some have very minimal conscious work and are considered boring. The beauty is in combining both to the effect that it feels rewarding; it was a challenge; it's something others can see or be affected by. When you switch weapons - that's a conscious thought. You didn't automatically do it with no regard to what just happened in your conscious awareness. What you can do unconsciously is move somewhere out of harm's way, but then have to eliminate some zeds or large zeds, turning 180 at times, without having to consider to yourself: "Is this right? I'm not doing enough". When that train of thought breaks because of a problem, you are now in the realm of conscious thought.

So basically - there should be some more appropriate "risk vs. reward" built into the classes, considering the above.
 

Multihog

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 8, 2020
13
11
3
This post reads like something written by someone who discovered MBTI—which is unscientific and cringe—yesterday and read an article about unconscious brain activity.
Gunslinger is the next worst class in the game, because like Sharpshooter, you have to consciously fret and worry about where the enemies' arms and legs are, every time you shoot.
Lol, no you don't. You're only focused on the head because it's the only relevant thing to you. Why would you care about arms and legs? Gunslinger is one of the best classes in the game, which is obvious when you consider the actually relevant parameters, such as damage, versatility and mobility, instead of simplistically boiling it down to some misguided nonsense about psychology.

weighing up how much health that Skrake or Fleshpound has left; maxmizing the number of enemies hit by an explosive splash damage. You cannot do this while chained to a semi-auto weapon and all that's implied by it - imagine an associated hierarchy of needs and considerations, like a pyramid, that apply to every weapon.
Except you can do it just fine. You're overestimating the mental taxation of using a semi-auto weapon by a huge amount. The only difference is that you're clicking repeatedly instead of holding down the fire-button. Wow, such taxation! My cognition is all backed up when I have to click repeatedly. That's the only difference because even with full auto weapons, you're still managing your reloads and all the other stuff.

I guess everyone should just go firebug because that optimizes the conscious effort economy. That's all that matters, after all. Wait, 6 firebug doesn't work? Oh, maybe there's more to the game than one class requiring 0.1% more or less conscious effort than another.
 
Last edited:

fungame_dot_exe2

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 1, 2020
12
1
1
This post reads like something written by someone who discovered MBTI—which is unscientific and cringe—yesterday and read an article about unconscious brain activity.

Lol, no you don't. You're only focused on the head because it's the only relevant thing to you. Why would you care about arms and legs? Gunslinger is one of the best classes in the game, which is obvious when you consider the actually relevant parameters, such as damage, versatility and mobility, instead of simplistically boiling it down to some misguided nonsense about psychology.


Except you can do it just fine. You're overestimating the mental taxation of using a semi-auto weapon by a huge amount. The only difference is that you're clicking repeatedly instead of holding down the fire-button. Wow, such taxation! My cognition is all backed up when I have to click repeatedly. That's the only difference because even with full auto weapons, you're still managing your reloads and all the other stuff.

I guess everyone should just go firebug because that optimizes the conscious effort economy. That's all that matters, after all. Wait, 6 firebug doesn't work? Oh, maybe there's more to the game than one class requiring 0.1% more or less conscious effort than another.
Nope, recoil is a thing which ruins everything. You absolutely are not getting headshots with even 70% of a mag. And then half the time Gunslinger players are running away reloading, because dual gun weapons have double the reload speed for some reason. Headshots are difficult to pull off, and when chaos erupts you are even less likely to get headshots. The best headshot potential is a full auto weapon with the large zed running at you (as the video demonstrates).

MBTI is about cognitive habits, which are fundamentally distinct mental functions - and no personal attacks please. Yeah, it's only obvious because I analyzed it and wrote it. You didn't. I drew attention to thought.

You can't hit a moving target in the head reliably. That is just basic fact. That's why all semi-auto weapons perform poorly. And why they should get a massive buff. Shotguns should be much more powerful and do ragdolling.

Firebug has best theoretical DPS if you check the wiki's numbers for its $2000 rifle, but only by a fringe. So actually Berserker is the best single target damage class (with rifle), since you don't even have to watch like a hawk on harder difficulties or even boom waves in endless. Since you tank the damage and do Commando's DPS in theory - but without having to constantly heal and think consciously about that. There is a much smoother flow. You not only get 20+levelled% dmg reduction, but constant healing. No other class can compare, except Demolitionist (in theory only).

In fact, Field medic and every other class can't compete with Berserker. You can carry a hard mode wave by yourself with melee weapons. And boom waves - because Berserker can tank a ton of damage for the team. You can rush in to defend someone about to die.

But that's getting into a really meta level of trying to pan out the game and win with increasing diminished returns.

It is just not fun playing medic (you separate on later endless waves), SWAT/Commando/Demo (can die easily when surrounded because of too much pressure on the team generally) when they don't offer great DPS. 6 Berserker however.. that's a lot of dmg reduction, healing (hey, no need for medic!), and single target DPS. They can carry the M79 "blooper" as off perk.

You can tell from the class names even, that Tripwire set out to make some grand complementing classes, like Survivalist should in theory actually be able to self-preserve at the cost of contributing less to the team innately; or Gunslinger should be able to get an advantage by doing.. something.. that no other class could. But actually, Berserker with the rifle is objectively the best. You don't need splash damage when tons of large zeds are coming at you. You need fundamental survivability.. dmg reduction and healing, and single target DPS. That's all that SWAT does after all..

And no, psychology and MBTI are not bad in style - most people including the ignorant are simply unable to think independently, critically, analytically and handling tough, abstract concepts. Words are actually differently activating of the "neural network" and so on of your mathematical mind. Everyone mathematically models "things" - ideations, understanding, nuances of experience and wonder, hopes and dreams, facts and a varying level of comprehension of world events (various ways to manipulate populations) and so on. Daniel Tammet is one proof of this - we are mathematical and so is reality, it's pure math.

MBTI is not a "hard science" = not empirically focused i.e. only experiments or measurements are considered "proof" of anything - of course that's what Sensing-Thinking type scientists have an allergic reaction to. Of course complex, highly intuitive, mental concepts that stand independent and alone, far from the shallow reaches of physical empirically-verificable fact, are going to do that.

Conventional wisdom says that psychology is "cringe". Of course fact, logic, reason - the keys to the atom bomb, electricity, Das Kapital, etc. and the agricultural revolution allowing such a large population of Sensing Feeling Extrovert types - of course they are "cringe" if you are set that way. "nerd", "tryhard", etc. - and these are produced out of the fear of the unknown, and the extroverted will to domineer over others for social gain. So it goes.

I just ran the numbers for my video -

In the video I capture my kills before and after (96, 172). The wave had 285 zeds.

76 is 26.666666666667% of 285.

So I did 1/4 of the damage for the team as Berserker. And we had 5 team members to start with.

1.3 is 26% of 5.

Meaning, I did 1.3 players' damage or 1.3x the damage of the average player.

My (76) versus 68 and 28 of the other 2 that were left in the game after I finished it.

So, err - I could have been lazy and just quipped "Ok then how about YOU provide a wave 57 endless video where you get all those headshots and carry the team, as Gunslinger".

So why don't you do that, and I'll wait.
 
Last edited:

pie1055

Active member
Jul 6, 2011
483
59
28
Bedlam
Isn't unconscious thinking just... Learning? Or like, forming habits and muscle memory? FWIW I don't have a clue what this INTJ(the IntelliJ IDEA IDE?) MTBI stuff is. Like, yeah you have to consciously think about aiming at a Scrake's head as you time your button presses correctly to ensure you hit it... Until you don't. After ~600 hours-ish you should be getting to the point where you have all of the Scrake's animations memorized and know how to adjust your aim to hit him in the head while he's doing his ballerina dance. It's not really difficult at that point to drop a 6p HoE Scrake with dual .500s without needing to reload or switch out. With the Gunslinger's movement speed bonus and his Skullcracker perk skill(headshots slow zeds) you can even just backpedal until he's sprinting towards you in a slowed animation where his head isn't moving around at all. With the additional reduced recoil of the Quick Draw perk skill and the fact an approaching enemy's head slowly goes upward on your screen its laughably easy to get 100% accuracy with the .500s(or any Gunslinger weapon, really) fairly reliably. Even if you do run into a spot of trouble you can weapon bash the Scrake, putting it into a 100% predictable stumble animation and at the range required to bash a ZED you'd struggle to miss its head. These animations and positions become easy to put to muscle memory because once you start putting hundreds of hours in you have thousands of incidents of practice, like dribbling a basketball without looking. Lastly this is all excluding the case where the Scrake is going for your teammate and yeah, landing headshots on a laterally moving target is a PITA but there's a method for that as well. ZEDs change targets based on player distance and damage sources so get close to the Scrake and pea-shoot it with your 9mm or bash it to get its attention, and then revert to Plan A.

Take all of that and you only have to make minor changes in your approach for Fleshpounds or bosses, the latter of which DPS is the least of your concerns. All other zeds don't really matter as KF2 punishes bodyshots many times less than KF1 did and having the aim of a spastic monkey with a rock on a rope doesn't ruin your chances at killing them all that much due to their drastically lower health values.

Automatic weapons are harder to retain accuracy with than semis IMO. With semis you have absolute control whereas with autos your aim is up to the discretion of a combination of fire rate, recoil, and spread variables. Take the HMTech-501 Grenade Rifle, for example. To get the best accuracy your best bet is to tap fire the thing as doing so resets some sort of spread value and you land tons more hits. You can manage the recoil and keep the sights on a ZED's head while on full auto but for some reason it feels like 40-60% of your shots miss. Do the same with tap firing and the zed will go down twice as fast. Now which type of weapon requires more "conscious thought"? The one where you aim and click once per shot, or the one where you aim, adjust aim to account for recoil, and hold the fire button for the precise amount of time required to prevent too many shots firing and ruining your accuracy? Human brains are notoriously bad at keeping track of time and if an auto weapon is going to require tap-firing to maintain precision maintaining that is going to be very inconsistent.

As for shotguns, I don't see why they would need a damage buff. Most of them one-shot damn near everything already and the fact they shoot multiple projectiles in a spread(only one of which needs to make contact with the head of trash zeds to kill them) means you spend even less time thinking about aiming them because it's less important. Hell, the Doomstick already one-shots Scrakes. If anything Support would need better survivability than damage as he has almost no defensive abilities and to me that's more important than damage numbers. What's the point of all the DPS in the world if you can't survive the wave? Yeah, Gunslingers take a long time to reload and run around a lot, because that's what allows them to keep killing zeds and their movement speed bonus is what enables it, not their DPS.
 

Aze

Grizzled Veteran
Mar 19, 2010
1,400
502
113
As another INTJ... I find this thread embarrasing.

EDIT: I can agreed with one thing though: Teslauncher does NOT belong on the Berserker.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.