Out of interest: were mg users trained to fire on the move?

[Nikita]

The DP-28 is quite light, approximately the weight of the BAR. It can be shoulder fired or hip fired quite comfortably.

It is worthy of noting, however, that the DP-28 is quite long, slightly over four feet long, in fact, making it longer than the Mosin-Nagant. That would make it more than a little clumsy to wield indoors. The MG-34 is just two inches shorter.

There is no question that the MG-34 can be fired from the hip, or even the shoulder. The MG-42 is also quite controllable from the hip or shoulder.

The real issue, though, is firing from the hip WHILE JOGGING. With only one foot on the ground and no shoulder to brace the machine gun's recoil, the weapon would be extremely hard to control in such a disorganized stance.

There's also the question of endurance. These weapons weigh twenty pounds or more. Holding it with one hand on the bipod and the other hand on the grip is not the easiest or most comfortable way to carry the weapon around. Lug anything that heavy around and you'll find that you automatically end up carrying it in the most comfortable fashion possible, i.e. not a stance that allows for instant hipfiring response.

I have a clanmate who trained on the M249 who states flat-out that he'd be crazy to try and hipfire the weapon while jogging and strafing in all directions.

EDIT: Gunther made an excellent point. MG-34s in Stalingrad generally fed from a belt. Even a fifty-round belt would be difficult to manage while hipfiring--and the MG-34 was notoriously finicky. Improper feeding of the weapon could result in a jam.

 

[TheRealGunther]

Eh, what?

While I agree with most of the rest of your post, that makes no sense.

1. The BAR is a WW1 design, older than both the MG-34 and the DP-27, it was not designed "in WW2 as a S.A.W. to bridge the gap between MGs and assault weapons"

I never said the B.A.R was designed in ww2 I said the bar was the only S.A.W "type" weapon in ww2 and not on the eastern front in WW2 .A squad automatic weapon is used as a force multiplier giving heavier firepower that's able to be used like a assault weapon being much more mobile.

The reason a Bar was one of the first SAW type weapons was it used a 20 round clip while it was a large gun itself it effectively bridged the gap between a LMG and a smg even if it wasn't designed to do so.It was the grandfather of all modern squad automatic weapons.

My point is that in game all mg's are able to be used like a S.A.W. with way to much mobility while run and gunning.In reality that was just not the case LMG's was not deployed as a run and gun type weapon at all.Yes LMG's can be fired from the hip but not like in game being able to quickly fire and change positions and fire again and in no way more effective than a smg in close quarters...its just unrealistic

Ost had it right the first time you couldfire from the hip but was in no way mobile with it .


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squad_automatic_weapon

 

[Fisher]

Wow, I didn't know this would spark such a debate. It's actually quite interesting to see everyone making their relative points.

My view is that I find it quite frustrating when I'm taken out by a wannabe Rambo.

I agree with many of the suggestions to impede movement when aiming, or stopping to shoot etc. and ultimately, that was why i was trying to find out whether they did hip fire while moving.

 

[hanky]

I don't have a problem with hip firing....I have a problem with running around while the weapon is at the hip and firing.


C'mon, solders didn't run around with the LMG at the ready hip fire position the whole time and run while shooting the weapon accuractly.

Yes, it's realistic to shoot from the hip standing still. I get that...you could probably manage to even hit targets like that.....but not while running.

You should drop to a walk while firing.


I carried the SAW a couple times on mission in Iraq, there's no F'ing way in hell I could run at a decent speed and shoot and actually hit a person farther than 3 feet away.

EVen so, even if it is possable, it doesn't make good for game play in my opinion. LMG should have a specific role, not a assault role.

Vote "Start walking when firing a LMG" for 2012

 

[Vegard]

The mg-34 was a whole other story in the Wehrmacht whole squad tactics was . While they was highly trained they was heavy infantry using a belt feed mg-34. Try hip firing a mg-34 on the run dragging around a 250 round belt.Not only would it be impractical it would be near impossible on the run.

.

No selfrespecting machinegunner will move with 5 50 round links attached to his weapon. In a combat situation they'd move with 1 50 round belt and when in need of fire the assistant gunner would attach more as needed.

Not that it alters the fact that run and gun with a mg is a bad idea, but what you said wasn't precise.

 

[TheRealGunther]

No selfrespecting machinegunner will move with 5 50 round links attached to his weapon. In a combat situation they'd move with 1 50 round belt and when in need of fire the assistant gunner would attach more as needed.

Not that it alters the fact that run and gun with a mg is a bad idea, but what you said wasn't precise.

That's why they was deployed in mg teams so people would carry ammo for them.In the grenadier divisions the mg was never a one man operation it was made up of a fire team.So a single man was never intended to run around firing the gun in fact often when the redeployed the mg they put the ammo back in the box and the gun had no belt.

Even lugging around a single 50 round belt would not be practical.As it would jam if the belt wasn't properly in line to feed into the gun.Many ww2 videos/pics of the mg-34 had a second person help keeping the ammo in line of the receiver so it wouldn't jam.

Not to mention debris that would get caught in the belt also making it jam.

MG-34 teams are shown in these pics

Spoiler!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_EKulkuIVvas/TKntTsrcJvI/AAAAAAAAAIs/354LGb0d8CQ/s1600/mg34.jpg

Spoiler!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...1-0386-15,_Frankreich,_Soldaten_mit_MG_34.jpg

 

[lyosha]

The DP-28 is quite light, approximately the weight of the BAR. It can be shoulder fired or hip fired quite comfortably.

You have never carried a DP-28 around for a day, nor have you ever fired a DP-28 or even held one by the sounds of it. The DP-28 is as dangerous to the user as it is to the people on the other end.
Step One: Place the DP in your shoulder
Step two: find somewhere to put your hand where it wont get chopped off by the bolt or burnt by the barrel
Step three: realise this is impossible and the only safe place to hold the DP either behind the mag or the bipod leg
Step four: drop the DP-28 on your little toes screaming for help as you realise you can not shoulder fire a DP.

 

[Nikita]

You have never carried a DP-28 around for a day, nor have you ever fired a DP-28 or even held one by the sounds of it. The DP-28 is as dangerous to the user as it is to the people on the other end.
Step One: Place the DP in your shoulder
Step two: find somewhere to put your hand where it wont get chopped off by the bolt or burnt by the barrel
Step three: realise this is impossible and the only safe place to hold the DP either behind the mag or the bipod leg
Step four: drop the DP-28 on your little toes screaming for help as you realise you can not shoulder fire a DP.

Hey man, I'm on your side! I'm not asking for DP-28 shoulder fire to be added to the game, for heaven's sake... I want major tweaks to MG hipfire just like you do.

No, I have never even seen a DP-28 in person, much less touched one. It would seem to me, however, that the following method would work (DP-28 only, not DPM, due to differences in bipod mount and the awkwardness of the DPM's pistol grip):

1. collapse bipod legs
2. Lift DP to shoulder
3. Place nonfiring hand beneath collapsed bipod where the barrel meets the reciever. Your hand should now be sufficiently far from the cycling bolt, hot brass, and the barrel shroud to permit safe firing. Works even better with winter gloves.

I concede that it's not particularly convenient, as it requires preparation. Correct me if I made any faulty assumptions, comrade.

I've seen a period photo of a soldier holding a DP-28 that way--a noncombat photo, to be sure. Can't find it, though, so this will have to do. Note that the Libyan rebel here is not being entirely careful here and would probably burn his ring and little finger:

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/9200/800xkv.jpg

Libya, 2012.

 

[Ossius]

When you press W in RO by default you are actually jogging, rather than walking.

Hm, I suppose that is true, before this last update MGs were much slower so while not sprinting it was actually "walking" speed, as I can't see my own body I always assumed it was more of a walk than a jog. It seems people are completely disregarding my videos however, people don't seem to care that it is possible to walk and fire.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

Creditable citation of MG running and gunning required please.

Both sides of the argument are at a deadlock..... you can ask for credible sources to prove they did the above, while others can ask you for credible sources to prove they didn't.

And records on this matter from back then are not very easy to come by.

LMGs are portable so that they can indeed keep up with an assault, which means rapid forward redeployment not running around like John Rambo with belts of ammo wrapped around his oiled chest.

A bit of an exaggeration really compared to what occurs in the game, but the DP28 and MG34 are not really much more heavier than a Bren or BAR, and those were often used like an assault rifle when needed.

 

[Bluehawk]

Soviet squad- and platoon-level machine gun operators were trained to fire the DP/DT at waist level on the move using the shoulder strap, during assaults on enemy positions. The role of overwatch fire support fell to the heavier weapons like the Maxim.

How often they actually did this after the fiascoes of Finland and Barbarossa however... I can't say for certain.

 

[Cpt-Praxius]

The answer is NO while at times they could it doesn't even come close to how easy it is in game.They had bipods for a reason to lay down accurate and sustained suppressive fire.I am really happy with classic mode but when I see a mger run in a building clearing room to room I have a CoD moment......

They had bipods for accurate fire, yes.... but hip firing in RO2 is not accurate like using the bipod, and only useful at close/medium range.... which is what most I see use the hip fire fire for.

At close range, you really don't have time to go to prone and setup your MG.... and when I hip fire, I'm always in crouch position to maintain better control over the weapon.

And as noted previous by someone else, you can not fire any of the weapons while "Sprinting"

 

[TheRealGunther]

Hm, I suppose that is true, before this last update MGs were much slower so while not sprinting it was actually "walking" speed, as I can't see my own body I always assumed it was more of a walk than a jog. It seems people are completely disregarding my videos however, people don't seem to care that it is possible to walk and fire.

Both Mg's can be fired in this way but firing on the range from a standing position on videos.Is much different than running into a building clearing multiple rooms with ease.What most of us have a problem with is how easy it is to do in game using it just like a smg.

Any full size rifle round fired fully automatic from a gun is going to kick like a mule as seen in these videos.So much that accuracy is a real problem and while moving it would be nearly impossible.Even while walking its very easy to loose balance especially changing direction.

In no way should a LMG be more controllable firing this way than a smg realistically.All guns have their role it just seems the MG is a super duel role gun in this game.So to answer the OP's question they didn't train troops to be Rambo.The training was to lay down covering fire from an accurate static position.

 

[Nikita]

Hm, I suppose that is true, before this last update MGs were much slower so while not sprinting it was actually "walking" speed, as I can't see my own body I always assumed it was more of a walk than a jog. It seems people are completely disregarding my videos however, people don't seem to care that it is possible to walk and fire.

Walking is perfecly fine. Walking would be great, in fact.

I'd love a system where your soldier cradles the weapon with both hands normally or carries it with the right hand, where pressing iron sights causes your soldier to slow to a walk and raise the weapon for hipfiring, and where the fastest possible speed is just that--a walk.

Faster than the current iron-sighted rifle walk and the crouch-walk, but a walk nonetheless.

 

[Ossius]

In no way should a LMG be more controllable firing this way than a smg realistically.

It isn't more controllable than an SMG?

 

[TheRealGunther]

It isn't more controllable than an SMG?

Maybe not more controllable but way to close to being and its definitely more effective in close quarters.Too many assaults get gunned down by a mg during CQB.This is whats unrealistic

No offense to anyone but people who think it should be hip fired this easy are the ones Rambo'ing or just don't understand weapons.

 

[Grimreapo]

One of the best things about WW2 is how "unrealistic" it is, its is very possible to use a LMG from the hip even if you untrained to use it and there is this famous example:

A second machine gun opened fire on Murphy and Tipton who managed to force it to surrender with rifle fire and thrown grenades.

Despite a panicked attempt by Murphy to stop his friend, Tipton was shot and killed as he exposed himself to a phony German flag of surrender.

In a fit of rage, Murphy destroyed the machine gun crew with more grenades. He then rushed the position. Murphy took its undamaged machine gun and began firing it from his hip. As he did, Murphy charged two remaining enemy machine gun positions that were trying to kill him. Murphy destroyed both of them which cleared the hill of all resistance.

Murphy returned back to the body of his friend and was overwhelmed with grief

If that does that does not seem awesome here is the same scene playing played by Murphy himself:
To hell and back - YouTube

Its possible but it would have almost would have never happened because once you get the LMG in a hip firing position (or even from the shoulder) you would be the biggest threat and shot by a competent opposing squad within seconds unless you flanked them hard. Successful hip firing in RO2 is harder than you think it it but its still a bit too common as there is no 'fear of death' to stop people from doing it (would you lift up a heavy gun and walk towards an opposing squad? The people that did use hip shooting during the war had balls) and real question is that should the game stop you from doing something that is possible in real life?

 

[r5cya]

and real question is that should the game stop you from doing something that is possible in real life?

yes it should, if it makes the game better. isn't that really what we all want? or is it realism at the cost of gameplay and the possible future of ro2?

 

[Fishsticks]

MG34 w/bipod up, hipfired 00:40-00:42

Die Schlacht von Stalingrad - YouTube

 

[Floyd]

One of the best things about WW2 is how "unrealistic" it is, its is very possible to use a LMG from the hip even if you untrained to use it and there is this famous example:


If that does that does not seem awesome here is the same scene playing played by Murphy himself:
To hell and back - YouTube

Its possible but it would have almost would have never happened because once you get the LMG in a hip firing position (or even from the shoulder) you would be the biggest threat and shot by a competent opposing squad within seconds unless you flanked them hard. Successful hip firing in RO2 is harder than you think it it but its still a bit too common as there is no 'fear of death' to stop people from doing it (would you lift up a heavy gun and walk towards an opposing squad? The people that did use hip shooting during the war had balls) and real question is that should the game stop you from doing something that is possible in real life?

Well, I guess if when you died in the game, you had to uninstall the game and never play again, then perhaps allowing anything and everything you could possibly do in real life would be a valid arguement. .

The problem is not that you could do it in real life. The problem is that it becomes ludicrous when a particular tactic is abused to the point of becoming unreal and bordering on exploitation.

I haven't read every post in this thread, but I did read from active (or retired) military. Yet youtubes take precedent over hands on experience.