Opinions On The Tankiness of Zeds (Long Read.)

[RUSTIK]

For some reason you seem to be forcing the "KF is an epitome of teamwork" thing. It shouldn't be like this simply because your enjoyment will rely on your teammates. Knowing online communities you'll only get an enjoyable game only one out of a hundred times.

Truth, I hated playing online. Most people just wanted to play as a social gathering or they were just bad and did things to ruin the game on purpose. Although this is more of a widespread problem in general when it comes to online games.

All that to say I would hate if the only way to kill anything was with a focused team.

 

[Shining Wolf]

For some reason you seem to be forcing the "KF is an epitome of teamwork" thing. It shouldn't be like this simply because your enjoyment will rely on your teammates. Knowing online communities you'll only get an enjoyable game only one out of a hundred times.

... That's the reason people want to be able to solo everything? Because they think randoms are all drooling mongs?

I wouldn't play KF1 if I couldn't pick a server and have a good game the vast majority of the time. Most randoms are not stupid. Everyone knows that someone needs to be a sharp by wave 6 and that everyone but them should leave scrakes and fps the hell alone. That's one person and what's required by the players is not rocket science. In KF2, a tank and probably a dps will be the ideal setup to reliably take out heavy zeds, and this is only on harder difficulties. That's two people, and someone on the team is always going to be a sharp, anyway. So that leaves a zerker, a class that smashes heads with a sledgehammer and shovel. Once MA releases, there will be a class that's running around with a sword slicing things in half with a katana. Yeah, those tank options sound like no one will be playing at least one of them already by the time wave 4/7 hits.

Again, I'm someone that always plays with randoms and I'm confident that people will already be playing a guy with a sniper rifle and a guy with a sword, but let's assume that the melee user in our group doesn't know that we're all going to die if he doesn't tank and will never start at any point in the future (there will always be a dps). Let's also assume this is a pub suicidal since it's going to be tested as the main 25 difficulty, 25's in hard will be carrying as any perk and hoe is being designed for organized groups anyway. Someone in a group of 25s will know that there needs to be a tank and switch to offset the bad person. Even if the tank dies, that's just the ideal scenerio and a heavy zed can be focused with some risk, and medics can offtank and buffer health anyway.

There are single player games for a reason and lower difficulties will be have people carrying, anyway.

 

[DirtySpartan]

I wouldn't play KF1 if I couldn't pick a server and have a good game the vast majority of the time.

I mostly play with randoms too and I want my games to be enjoyable. This is why there should be perks who can solo a SC/FP.

There are single player games for a reason and lower difficulties will be have people carrying, anyway.

You want to change what KF1 was. I don't like that.
Changing HoE to Entire-Team-In-TeamSpeak-only-mode is a pretty big extreme.

 

[rodrigoxm49]

TBH in KF1 support can deal with everything... hunting SG for SC (katana+ head shot) and FP (nade> hunting SG rage> nade> hunting SG), and AA12 for any trash.

I never ran out of ammo unless teammates are too bad and die very early every wave while having 800-1k zed kill on average per game.

Similar case goes for demo but its harder to do and I have to ignore SC.

If you can deal with bigs you can deal with smalls unless you spend your ammo on a single crawler/clot. Firebug and commando get outclass by good supports in every way while support can deal actual damage when the big guys come.

Demo have a huge problem with close combat and, like you say, terrible for scrake.

Zerker kill everything in KF, but they need to be VERY close. A very dangerous close. That's the bad size. They can lead with every zed, but if you don't have a medic in your team, the chances to get kill are always huge. Other thing, Zerker takes a very long and precious time to kill SCs or FPs. And that's the other bad side of Zerker. They can deal, but take too long. Sometimes is impossible to wait a Zerker to kill a FP or even a SC. Sometimes there's no space for it.

I'm talking about HoE + level 6 + 6 players here.

I don't think non perk weapones make real damage on KF1. But I understand that some classes need to carry a hunting, or a cross, etc. But the damage? Very small.

 

[narvalboss]

I see the word "teamwork" thrown around a lot here without defining exactly what it means or should mean in KF.

For me teamwork in KF means choosing a task or role for your team, and performing that task, confident that your teammates have your back by performing other necessary tasks. SPECIALIZATION should be core to teamwork.

• Trash killing is one task, with example subset tasks of quickly killing husks/sirens from far.
• Scrake killing is an important task, requiring someone capable of dealing with them quickly since they stay raged until dead.
• Fleshpounds are the most dangerous threat to the group, and a player dedicated to killing them should be the most support oriented and limited in what else he can do.
• Medics heal the team when needed.

This as I see it should be the core of the game, and it needs loadouts/perks capable of performing each of these roles. Balanced in such a way that there are very few, if any, "rambo" loadouts that can deal with everything.

Obviously with player experimentation and different maps requiring different tactics there can and should be a lot of variation in how you accomplish these roles/tasks.

i agree 100%

i ( most of the times ) don't play the perk that i want, but the perk the teams needs.

if the team needs a trash cleaner, i'll go commando, firebug or support
if the teams needs a heavy hitter, i'll go shap or demo
if the team needs a medic, i shall be the medic.

many times when playing as a 6 man team HoE, on a map where the zeds were only come through one corridor, i spend about 40 minutes being useless as a medic, but , when my team panic when they spot 2 FPs and 2 scrakes on wave 10 ( for example ), i jump in front of them and tank those bastards until they drop dead, and even tho i was not needed those 40 min, when i was trully needed i was there to give my life for my team.

 

[RUSTIK]

... That's the reason people want to be able to solo everything? Because they think randoms are all drooling mongs?

There are single player games for a reason and lower difficulties will be have people carrying, anyway.

I would not say that is the main reason, but it is true. I mean people still attempt HoE games with lvl 3 perks thus adding more zeds than they can handle, then leave everyone else with the load to bare. People can be "mongs" lol.

I own a double barreled shotgun, I know how much power it has and when it does hardly anything to a fleshpound I can't help but roll my eyes, smh, and say F*** that...

The game ought to be balanced off of ammo capacity, horde numbers, and Dosh IMO. Not generically giving zeds more health to make the game harder, that just feels so... cheap...

 

[Shining Wolf]

You want to change what KF1 was. I don't like that.
Changing HoE to Entire-Team-In-TeamSpeak-only-mode is a pretty big extreme.

Well, no. The game is already being designed as such. I'm just trying to make people comfortable with that.

 

[DirtySpartan]

Well, no. The game is already being designed as such. I'm just trying to make people comfortable with that.

It's not even in early access yet. The game will be completely different once new perks start appearing.

 

[Deathgrip22]

i see the word "teamwork" thrown around a lot here without defining exactly what it means or should mean in kf.

For me teamwork in kf means choosing a task or role for your team, and performing that task, confident that your teammates have your back by performing other necessary tasks. Specialization should be core to teamwork.

• trash killing is one task, with example subset tasks of quickly killing husks/sirens from far.
• scrake killing is an important task, requiring someone capable of dealing with them quickly since they stay raged until dead.
• fleshpounds are the most dangerous threat to the group, and a player dedicated to killing them should be the most support oriented and limited in what else he can do.
• medics heal the team when needed.

this as i see it should be the core of the game, and it needs loadouts/perks capable of performing each of these roles. Balanced in such a way that there are very few, if any, "rambo" loadouts that can deal with everything.

Obviously with player experimentation and different maps requiring different tactics there can and should be a lot of variation in how you accomplish these roles/tasks.

+1

 

[C_Gibby]

I just think that Sharpie should only be able to almost solo a Fleshpound on HOE.

The hardest difficulty.

 

[weeman2412]

I just think that Sharpie should only be able to almost solo a Fleshpound on HOE.

The hardest difficulty.

How do you define almost?

 

[RUSTIK]

I just think that Sharpie should only be able to almost solo a Fleshpound on HOE.

The hardest difficulty.

but there are so many other ways to make the game hard and still allow every perk to kill the big guys...

 

[C_Gibby]

How do you define almost?

If it's the hardest difficulty, you shouldn't be able to solo it unless there's not many players. I'm thinking that the absolute strongest sharpshooter weapon should only enable you to get it to ~25% of its health before it reaches you, where you'd need help with it. Assuming this is a 6man game.

but there are so many other ways to make the game hard and still allow every perk to kill the big guys...

With the trash zeds, yes, with the big guys I doubt it. Not without increasing the animation workload.

 

[RUSTIK]

With the trash zeds, yes, with the big guys I doubt it. Not without increasing the animation workload.

well, what if we had more fps/Sc that output more damage to players, but have low enough health to kill them reasonably? I just hate that TW put so much time into making guns realistic looking and all that yet they shoot like airsoft rifles... seems counter intuitive.

 

[Jovial]

I just think that Sharpie should only be able to almost solo a Fleshpound on HOE.

The hardest difficulty.

I think that's one thing we can change from KF1 though, give the fleshpound an ungodly headshot resistance and let sharpshooter largely be the scrake guy with limited ammo, or generalist trash/kinda not really scrake guy with more ammo.

With demolition added, and all the offperk options that will be available for supports and commandos (maybe setting of their perked nades with a grenade launcher, etc) I feel sharpshooter just needs the tools to be able to deal with scrakes easily.

 

[Shining Wolf]

I just think that Sharpie should only be able to almost solo a Fleshpound on HOE.

The hardest difficulty.

I think that should be Demo's thing if he has the distance and Sharp gets to go to town on Scrakes.

 

[C_Gibby]

I think that's one thing we can change from KF1 though, give the fleshpound an ungodly headshot resistance and let sharpshooter largely be the scrake guy with limited ammo, or generalist trash/kinda not really scrake guy with more ammo.

With demolition added, and all the offperk options that will be available for supports and commandos (maybe setting of their perked nades with a grenade launcher, etc) I feel sharpshooter just needs the tools to be able to deal with scrakes easily.

This seems alright.

But Scrakes need to be more common. In what I've played of KF2, the zed count seems to be half what it used to be. Then sharp soloing scrakes under good circumstances (helped by trashclearers and medics) wouldn't be game-breaking.

I just find it so hard to get behind letting sharpie solo fleshpounds. Fleshpounds should require the team to pour it on.

 

[Shining Wolf]

well, what if we had more fps/Sc that output more damage to players, but have low enough health to kill them reasonably? I just hate that TW put so much time into making guns realistic looking and all that yet they shoot like airsoft rifles... seems counter intuitive.

You know, I think part of it is that there aren't really any zeds to really have a duel with. I think understand the thing that you're talking about with having zeds for individuals that aren't cannon fodder like gorefasts but are below scrakes and fps and can be taken down by one guy. Wasn't the brute like that? Maybe not the brute if he's not (apparantly he's annoying), but something kind of tanky that dodges around and weaves in and out for one person to have a fight with. That would be my ideal scenerio, but if the demand would just be for numerous but more squishy fleshpounds, that would be easier to implement, anyway.

I still obviously don't want fps or Sc reduced in their boss status, though. I started KF as a medic and got it to level 5 before anything else, so I was used to ****ting my pants when seeing fps and praying that team mates would save me, especially since it was the old halloween zeds in bedlam.

http://youtu.be/M3tfakWkXRo kind of related

 

[moleculo]

This seems alright.

But Scrakes need to be more common. In what I've played of KF2, the zed count seems to be half what it used to be. Then sharp soloing scrakes under good circumstances (helped by trashclearers and medics) wouldn't be game-breaking.

I just find it so hard to get behind letting sharpie solo fleshpounds. Fleshpounds should require the team to pour it on.

No, almost every class should be able to kill a FP alone. It might take loads of ammo and a good chunk of HP, but it should be possible. Like in KF1 almost everybody could kill almost anything, but they still had to use the correct perks for correct jobs because otherwise everybody ran out of resources. Everybody had their jobs. That's teamwork, not m1'ing a big zed at the same time.

 

[Shining Wolf]

This seems alright.

But Scrakes need to be more common. In what I've played of KF2, the zed count seems to be half what it used to be. Then sharp soloing scrakes under good circumstances (helped by trashclearers and medics) wouldn't be game-breaking.

I just find it so hard to get behind letting sharpie solo fleshpounds. Fleshpounds should require the team to pour it on.

Yeah, the zed count at once in general is just really low. I finally got to see a close to finished HOE game and there was absolutely no sense of panic with the numer of zeds.