I don't think Siren really ever really does much damage in KF1 until sui/hoe, although she probably doesn't get close as often because of less deadly zeds and slower speed.
Opinions On The Tankiness of Zeds (Long Read.)
- Thread starter Radingod
- Start date
Sorry that I (and others) seem to have misunderstood. But I mean...look at all the stuff you said before my post:
lols. I mean I at some point I guess you said this (and honestly, I did miss it)
But you punctuated the post with this!
And then sometime after you tried to clarify this position, you apparently came up with this!
Okay, yeah you said I think you didn't think that one through, but I mean, how can you be upset that people were misunderstanding you. I hope I've made things clear, because I lack both the crayons and time to explain it anymore than that.
Oh I will say one thing though. You often brought up the devs saying they don't want bullet sponges. In higher difficulties of KF1, enemies got harder in part because they got more health. That's why the devs were talking about. So your weapons just seemed weaker as you moved up in difficulty. It was never a matter of whether or not zeds felt like sponges on normal (I mean, they certainly could be, but that's not the discussion you're referencing here). And I say normal, because I don't think you ever bothered to answer the posters who asked what diff and level you were playing at.
You're taking snippets of what I said to explain a whole issue. That's like news stands taking snippets of what someone else said to mean something completely different.
My argument from beginning until end has been trying to feel stronger. It has been however, saturated with suggestions from visual things to increases of damage, but the initial message always has been "dealing more damage with weapons". This can be done visually, literally, or both. I'm not asking that the game be easier. I'm asking that it feel more satisfying.
Edit: Most of your snippets are also from a story I was telling that simply existed as contextual fluff into the underlying issue that is the lack of actual damage I feel I deal. I also should note that the bulk of your argument is also the opinion I felt, but was RECIPROCATED by my friend.
Late Edit: Also as far as difficulty is concerned (despite it not mattering I think. I could say 500 on normal or 500 on HoE it wouldn't change anything), I'm playing almost exclusively on hard (50+ games. I've beaten Hans like 11-12 times). (Though I have played a bit on normal (3-4 games I've beaten Hans twice) and suicidal (8 or 9. I I've beaten Hans once on this.)). I haven't bothered to touch HoE though.
I also didn't really use the devs much or bring them up really at all in my arguments. I brought them up twice (I think)? And one of those times is a DIRECT QUOTE of what my friend said. I put it in because I did agree to some extent about that.
One thing I did bring up a lot (that you conveniently didn't quote a lot) was of me wondering if people were okay with the damage they felt they did. I have said (at least 5-6 times now) the damage and whether they think it it was either high enough, or felt satisfying enough. (Meaning things like: would you like enemies to stagger, or perhaps fall apart as they were hit, or another tier of weapons) <--- all things I brought up to try and get the discussion BACK to talking about whether combat is good or bad right now and return it from its honestly derailed and purposeless argument of "should this be a team oriented game or not".
I think something like that isn't really something that can be argued too well because it's really a "yes" or "no" question. It's a yes or no question that can only be elaborated upon by opinions.
Where as an argument like "do you think weapons are satisfying" is a bit more than yes or no with an opinion tossed in. It could be "no, I think weapons aren't satisfying. I think it can become satisfying by adding in this, this and this". Or "Yes, I think weapons are satisfying. Take this, this and this". This goes from being a yes or no question to a thread that starts to suggest some ways combat could be more satisfying. Or, states FACTS (not opinions) as to why combat is now satisfying. Opinions are nice, but it doesn't create a healthy discussion. Staff will look at it and be like "okay the opinion of people is ___. So what do we do about ____?" Whereas something like this might have suggestions. Some bad, some good.
My argument from beginning until end has been trying to feel stronger. It has been however, saturated with suggestions from visual things to increases of damage, but the initial message always has been "dealing more damage with weapons". This can be done visually, literally, or both. I'm not asking that the game be easier. I'm asking that it feel more satisfying.
Edit: Most of your snippets are also from a story I was telling that simply existed as contextual fluff into the underlying issue that is the lack of actual damage I feel I deal. I also should note that the bulk of your argument is also the opinion I felt, but was RECIPROCATED by my friend.
Late Edit: Also as far as difficulty is concerned (despite it not mattering I think. I could say 500 on normal or 500 on HoE it wouldn't change anything), I'm playing almost exclusively on hard (50+ games. I've beaten Hans like 11-12 times). (Though I have played a bit on normal (3-4 games I've beaten Hans twice) and suicidal (8 or 9. I I've beaten Hans once on this.)). I haven't bothered to touch HoE though.
I also didn't really use the devs much or bring them up really at all in my arguments. I brought them up twice (I think)? And one of those times is a DIRECT QUOTE of what my friend said. I put it in because I did agree to some extent about that.
One thing I did bring up a lot (that you conveniently didn't quote a lot) was of me wondering if people were okay with the damage they felt they did. I have said (at least 5-6 times now) the damage and whether they think it it was either high enough, or felt satisfying enough. (Meaning things like: would you like enemies to stagger, or perhaps fall apart as they were hit, or another tier of weapons) <--- all things I brought up to try and get the discussion BACK to talking about whether combat is good or bad right now and return it from its honestly derailed and purposeless argument of "should this be a team oriented game or not".
I think something like that isn't really something that can be argued too well because it's really a "yes" or "no" question. It's a yes or no question that can only be elaborated upon by opinions.
Where as an argument like "do you think weapons are satisfying" is a bit more than yes or no with an opinion tossed in. It could be "no, I think weapons aren't satisfying. I think it can become satisfying by adding in this, this and this". Or "Yes, I think weapons are satisfying. Take this, this and this". This goes from being a yes or no question to a thread that starts to suggest some ways combat could be more satisfying. Or, states FACTS (not opinions) as to why combat is now satisfying. Opinions are nice, but it doesn't create a healthy discussion. Staff will look at it and be like "okay the opinion of people is ___. So what do we do about ____?" Whereas something like this might have suggestions. Some bad, some good.
Last edited:
I don't think we are able to discuss this right now. We need at least Sharp or Demolition to know if SCs and FPs needs to be nerfed or if they're OK.
I think this is the KF's soul: Every perk have their particular skills.
A12 is design on KF to lead with a lot of zeds in the same time. Maybe the best weapon on the game to kill Clots, Gorefast, Sirens, Bloat and Husks. But FPs and SCs? Only if things go wrong.
I'm wondering if you are a KF player or if is starting on KF2. No value judgment here. But support is to clean room, make some space, dealing with trash and help if things are going wrong.
I think this is the KF's soul: Every perk have their particular skills.
A12 is design on KF to lead with a lot of zeds in the same time. Maybe the best weapon on the game to kill Clots, Gorefast, Sirens, Bloat and Husks. But FPs and SCs? Only if things go wrong.
I'm wondering if you are a KF player or if is starting on KF2. No value judgment here. But support is to clean room, make some space, dealing with trash and help if things are going wrong.
Well, support did get the rep of being the one to put the nail in teh FP or Scrake's coffin with an AA12 or DB to the face. But it was always a team effort. They just did enough burst damage it was enough to bring them down the last chunk of their life quickly.
Not just support speciaist it's the shot guns that are super powerful in this game. I always carry a hunting shot gun on me no matter what class I'm running, that guns does amazing damage. Reminds me of how staple the crossbow was back in early Killing Floor 1.
Spammy spammy feels like a waste of ammo..
as for gimped.. i played firebug and sharpie a lot of HOE. on sharpie i just packed dual HC, a lever action, and a magnum. used the 9mm and magnum to clean trash, saved LAR for scrakes and softening up FP, and used the dual HC to finnish FP.. felt quite good to me.
on the bug i loved playing the trenchgun, and prefered to have a mac-10 (on semi for ligthing up enemies more far away while saving a ton of ammo) but usually settled for dual flares instead, just so i can dispose of bigger things when **** hits the fan.. flinch locking scakes felt quite awkward, but it worked.. on FP, i sometimes died..
imho we to wait until we get all the numbers. we need to know head healths. specific resistances, and gun/perk damage to properly know how many shot it takes. who knows, maybe some guys are just aiming unlucky with the spread pattern... or maybe th big guys have 65% aa-12 resistance like the crossbow was?
Last edited:
TBH in KF1 support can deal with everything... hunting SG for SC (katana+ head shot) and FP (nade> hunting SG rage> nade> hunting SG), and AA12 for any trash.
I never ran out of ammo unless teammates are too bad and die very early every wave while having 800-1k zed kill on average per game.
Similar case goes for demo but its harder to do and I have to ignore SC.
If you can deal with bigs you can deal with smalls unless you spend your ammo on a single crawler/clot. Firebug and commando get outclass by good supports in every way while support can deal actual damage when the big guys come.
We have to wait for sharpshooter/demo.
I don't want the game to be unplayable on higher difficulties without a full team on ts though.
I don't want the game to be unplayable on higher difficulties without a full team on ts though.
If it always makes even organized groups have a huge chance of wiping, why? Being able to complete trecherous difficulty again is part of what adds to the replay value. It's still a challenge. Having a thing that's unreachable now and getting to it later makes it more gratifuing. If suicidal is hard for 25 pubs, then hoe should be reserved for premades.
Right now you also need to have at least 3 supports on HoE or you're not able to win. Not very fun.
There are also only 4 perks and spawns come out at a trickle. Not much else to choose from even there's one of each perk already. They're the best single target damage atm.
And that brings me back to what I've already stated: Only because there are designated FP/SC roles doesn't mean that it should be almost impossible for every other perk to the same job, even with a lower efficiency and increased difficulty. That would be like taking the sharpshooter and making him unable to kill Steves, only because it's not his job doesn't mean that it has to be artificially difficult to where it's almost impossible to do so, only to force parry + M1 "teamwork" into peoples faces.
IMO all the guns feel decently powerful when they should be, in particular when you are dealing with the weaker enemies which is 90% of your playtime. The FP's/Scrakes on the other hand should be the ones who seem like unstoppable tanks to give the game a decent sense of danger and reward teamwork. To take down the big guys you should have the full team focusing him down, not have 1 guy with a t3 kill him by himself just because he wants to feel like a badass. 1 or 2 guys should be able to kill FP's only if they use tactics like getting a few shots off then barricading a door or waiting for him to stop raging. I didn't really like how in KF1 the big guys often seemed just as much fodder as the others
How is having a tank in the right spot to not have big guys kill everyone CC managing trash zeds while avoiding the big ones and dps having to be protected not good teamwork? That's more teamwork than a camp with current KF1 sharps, and even if sharps weren't capable of mowing down even trash, the heavy killers had to be protected before the autobow happened. Demos are screwed at close range and have to be given a clear shot.
Xbowing a KF1 scrake is not skillful, and someone capable of using it against fps made them a joke, too, so the "I should be able to solo them with skill" argument is stupid. Once a person is capable of killing everything by himself, at that point it is carrying and not relying on each other and making sure everyone is in the right location. Also, Fps either had to either be killed instantly, kited to then be killed instantly later or someone died. The deciding factor now isn't just is there enough damage before it reaches someone.
It seems like a tank and dps role is just going to be an ideal when the machine is running thing, anyway. Any group focusing a bigger zed can take it out if one of the heavy dealers dies but it's more dangerous. The wanting the feeling of soloing should be left for lower difficulties if people want to do whatever.
Last edited:
For some reason you seem to be forcing the "KF is an epitome of teamwork" thing. It shouldn't be like this simply because your enjoyment will rely on your teammates. Knowing online communities you'll only get an enjoyable game only one out of a hundred times.
I'm with you, the Xbow in the hands of a good players is overpowered. But give the Xbow to a new player and he probably still won't be able to kill scrakes reliably.
What's so wrong with having easy-to-use and hard-to-use weapons in a game? If you don't like Xbow, don't use it.
The amount of skill it requires to carry a full game singlehanded by killing everything without the involvment of the rest of the team is insane. It's one thing to be able to solo the big guys in a clean environment (like testmaps) another to do that when you are pressured by all the other spawns on the map. The teamplay here would just be that the rest of the team creates the environment for one player to take care of the big guy, which can be an huge amount of teamwork, considering the dynamic of a KF-match.
If the game becomes boring because everyone is literally too good at killing everything, just choose a messier spot on a map, choose a different loadout that makes it harder, stuff like that. That is the beauty of KF1, you can pretty much choose the difficulty level just by your team setup.
(IF you have a team with you; pubs in KF1 seem to end up in AA12 spam, autobowing or medic/zerk kites as far as I observed)