Ok, I think I've got it. In-game leveling per game

[Deafmute]

Why can't someone start suicidal as lvl 0? Anyway, why does a mutator have to be be played on suicidal for it to be fun? Ever play WTF with 30 people on suicidal?

Gee, I don't know, maybe because a level 0 player on 6-man Suicidal will most likely not survive past the first wave? It doesn't have to be played on Suicidal to be fun, but what if someone wanted to play your mutator on a higher difficulty? They'd barely stand a chance. Yes, I have. What does that have to do with anything?

As for any chance above normal requiring level 4 or 5, "However, I just played reset perks on Foundry on hard as support and I survived and I killed patty. I did automated welding the night before so welding wouldn't hold back my perk level. So an experience player as lvl 2 or 3 on hard is still an effective player."

Gain one or two level every game? " The requirements I am thinking of are if a player plays a single game all of the way through, he should get to lvl 5 75% of the time. If the player busts ***, they can get lvl 6."

Yeah, that's solo Hard. A far cry from a 6-man game. You don't understand what I'm saying - in order for players to stand a chance on Suicidal, they'd likely have to start as a higher level, so you would only gain a few levels each game. If you start on Normal, as soon as you reached level 4-6, it'd be insanely easy and not even worth playing. Boring either way.

That is the situation now. Overpowered perks + overpowered weapons + too much cash + too much ammo = too easy even on suicidal.

That's why a balance beta is in the works, and you just acknowledged the fact that your levelling system would end up being too easy in later waves.

 

[KingJoker]

Uhh I remember doing 9mm only and machine pistol a few months ago was for fun and on accident to test a mut was like a 5-man suicidal with NO perks. we got to like wave4-5. Perk levels don't make the man the experience does.


I like the idea personally but I believe there was a partial release or a WIP of this before. Soo uhhh go check it out.

 

[nutterbutter]

Gee, I don't know, maybe because a level 0 player on 6-man Suicidal will most likely not survive past the first wave? It doesn't have to be played on Suicidal to be fun, but what if someone wanted to play your mutator on a higher difficulty? They'd barely stand a chance. Yes, I have. What does that have to do with anything?

No way a decent team doesn't survive wave 0. Why wouldn't they? If someone wants to play it suicidal of course they can. My point about a 30 player WTF game is that a game doesn't need to be survivable to be fun.

Yeah, that's solo Hard. A far cry from a 6-man game. You don't understand what I'm saying - in order for players to stand a chance on Suicidal, they'd likely have to start as a higher level, so you would only gain a few levels each game. If you start on Normal, as soon as you reached level 4-6, it'd be insanely easy and not even worth playing. Boring either way.

I don't know how you think busting *** to stay alive is "boring" but if you think having to work is "boring" then you must absolutely hate the current state of the game. I especially like how you only consider two possible outcomes. The first being no one's using the mutator because there is no way anyone would survive past wave 1 or playing on normal. You don't consider that there may be some possibility of a fun game anywhere between those two. And BTW, I don't consider working up from level 0 in suicidal to be boring.

That's why a balance beta is in the works, and you just acknowledged the fact that your levelling system would end up being too easy in later waves.

Sorry, no. The fact that you think that shows that you aren't even giving this cursory thought. You are ignoring the fact that just because some player happens to end up at level 5 is completely different from having to work to get there. Totally different weapons are used. Much less money in the game. Very little perk discounts. Much more ammo is needed. No swapping perks in the middle of a game from one level 5 or 6 to another level 5 or 6. No spawning with weapons and armor.

 

[Deafmute]

Uhh I remember doing 9mm only and machine pistol a few months ago was for fun and on accident to test a mut was like a 5-man suicidal with NO perks. we got to like wave4-5. Perk levels don't make the man the experience does.


I like the idea personally but I believe there was a partial release or a WIP of this before. Soo uhhh go check it out.

You don't need to say "uhh" to make your point; it just makes you sound silly. Anecdotes aside, I don't see how this will solve any of the problems nutter is bringing up. "I think this solves the balance issue because everyone starts at lvl 0 and so the weapons they can afford for the early levels aren't overpowered." - Wouldn't make a difference if the requirements were so low as to enable a player to reach level 5-6 every game.

"I think this solves the cash problem because players have to start at the bottom and trade weapons every 2 or 3 waves. Players also don't immediately receive the 50%+ discount for weapons." - No, but it wouldn't take them long to be able to afford powerful weapons.

"I think this solves the overpowered weapon issue because the players are leveling as they can afford new weapons but they have the low bonuses on the low levels." - Again, the whole point here seems to be that starting at a low level wouldn't matter since the reqs are low, so this doesn't make much of a difference.

"This also solves the problem of people choosing the best lvl 6 for that particular wave and buying the perfect loadout each time as well." - So you want to force users into playing in a way that's less effective and/or fun for their play style? Interesting.

 

[EricFong]

I don't understand your point. Please explain again.

I am asking, what are you trying to suggest?

 

[nutterbutter]

You don't need to say "uhh" to make your point; it just makes you sound silly. Anecdotes aside, I don't see how this will solve any of the problems nutter is bringing up. "I think this solves the balance issue because everyone starts at lvl 0 and so the weapons they can afford for the early levels aren't overpowered." - Wouldn't make a difference if the requirements were so low as to enable a player to reach level 5-6 every game.

Well then simply raise the requirements. I'm always amazed how just about everyone takes every suggestion to extremes and absolutes. If you don't think something will work as suggested or have an idea how to make it better, make a suggestion.

Anyway, I don't think people will be able to afford the tier 4 weapons most of the time. And if they do, that is the only weapons they'll have. No more m14, m79, cannons, and so on.

"I think this solves the cash problem because players have to start at the bottom and trade weapons every 2 or 3 waves. Players also don't immediately receive the 50%+ discount for weapons." - No, but it wouldn't take them long to be able to afford powerful weapons.

I don't think so. How exactly are they going to afford the powerful weapons? Players are going to have to purchase tier 2 weapons at full price. No spawning with additional weapons and/or armor either. Don't forget that more ammo is going to be required as well.

"I think this solves the overpowered weapon issue because the players are leveling as they can afford new weapons but they have the low bonuses on the low levels." - Again, the whole point here seems to be that starting at a low level wouldn't matter since the reqs are low, so this doesn't make much of a difference.

So raise the requirements a little.

"This also solves the problem of people choosing the best lvl 6 for that particular wave and buying the perfect loadout each time as well." - So you want to force users into playing in a way that's less effective and/or fun for their play style? Interesting.

So you complain about how easy and boring my idea is, but you extol the ability of the player to switch between level 6 perks with full loadouts as fun?

 

[KingJoker]

This is just deafmute lol. She commented on my uhh which, uhh I type what im thinking.
"So you want to force users into playing in a way that's less effective and/or fun for their play style? Interesting." This made me laugh my *** off. Three words- What the ****?

NOW-
In-game perk sounds fun, but then I think about it. There could be servers with people fighting for ways in since its perk-ingame or in-server really xD

Having level 6s constantly doing a map and trying to get to level 2-3 would be kind of fun. but then you'd hit 6 then what D:

Now.. I like the idea and at the same time I don't. You have to remember husks do a chunky amount of damage so medics become a must which isn't shocking but leveling medic takes... Years?

Then the costs might actually need to be scaled for level 0s-6s, like a crossbow being 400 at level 0, and 800 at level 6. Reason being, wave 1 - 2 is not going to get you that much money so you'd have to wait and hope to god you can last a few waves.
Another problem might be room sizes. Maybe "X" wants to play but the room is filled. So what can "X" do if hes only level 6 on that server D:?

However I think it'd be a fun way to... change the difficulty of KF. After all a game is a game, playing against AI is to have fun, not to have a competition?

(Unless your playing Chess then you have rights to drop-kick your monitor and burn the pieces. Since that's Chess.)

 

[Undedd Jester]

This seems like a multiple level perk based version of the original Killing Floor mod.

It's cool but I don't think it should be the standard for the game

 

[Evilsod]

It should definitely NOT become the norm and frankly i'd avoid any server using it.

It can't adapt to the different difficulties without excessive balancing per difficulty which would then fall down with differing player count and this couldn't be compensated for because player count can vary constantly.
You are forced into playing a single perk all game because changing takes you right back down to lvl0 on the other perk.
Anyone joining late is royally ****ed.
Having to grind every game would be tedious and you'd just ruin it for anyone who doesn't want to play according to your 'requirements'.
The games cash problem might be overcome a little but there are definitely better ways to do it.

 

[Deafmute]

"So you want to force users into playing in a way that's less effective and/or fun for their play style? Interesting." This made me laugh my *** off. Three words- What the ****?

I didn't think what I said was that humorous or difficult to understand, but apparently so. Evilsod summed it up:

It should definitely NOT become the norm and frankly i'd avoid any server using it.

It can't adapt to the different difficulties without excessive balancing per difficulty which would then fall down with differing player count and this couldn't be compensated for because player count can vary constantly.
You are forced into playing a single perk all game because changing takes you right back down to lvl0 on the other perk.
Anyone joining late is royally ****ed.
Having to grind every game would be tedious and you'd just ruin it for anyone who doesn't want to play according to your 'requirements'.
The games cash problem might be overcome a little but there are definitely better ways to do it.

It is boring and restrictive because if you start out as one perk and want to change mid-game, you're screwed.

 

[nutterbutter]

It should definitely NOT become the norm

No one is suggesting that. Again "I'm always amazed how just about everyone takes every suggestion to extremes and absolutes."

 

[Undedd Jester]

No one is suggesting that. Again "I'm always amazed how just about everyone takes every suggestion to extremes and absolutes."

Sorry mate I have to call you up on that one, you have kind of presented it as an idea to alter the game, not as a mod idea. Especially with lines like

I think this works out the balance and cash issues....

I think this solves the overpowered weapon issue because the players are leveling as they can afford new weapons but they have the low bonuses on the low levels....

This also solves the problem of people choosing the best lvl 6 for that particular wave and buying the perfect loadout each time as well.

And even the title of the thread "Ok, I think I've got it. In-game leveling per game" (Since most of your suggestions are suggestions to be added to the actual game.)

I'm splitting hairs really, but its easy to see where the confusion has come in.

Any way it is a good idea, I remember suggesting a while back having a mod where KF retail can be played like the old school KF Mod back in the day. You start the game perkless and then you "Unlock" perks with in game achievements.
e.g so many points healed, so many headshots, so much welding, etc etc.

I figure playing the game on Hard, starting at 0 and unlocking Level 2 perk bonuses is about right. Would like to see someone have a crack at this

 

[Deafmute]

No one is suggesting that. Again "I'm always amazed how just about everyone takes every suggestion to extremes and absolutes."

Well yes, but you're not really presenting a solution to anything we're bringing up other than "I don't think that will happen" or "raise the requirements a little." I personally don't know how to improve the idea to make it both balanced and fun for the general playerbase - not just well-organized teams.

 

[Evilsod]

No one is suggesting that. Again "I'm always amazed how just about everyone takes every suggestion to extremes and absolutes."

I was just stating it shouldn't become the norm and if it were a mod i'd avoid any server using it. And as 2 have already said you still made it sound like it should be something that should become the norm and not a mod. I still can't see it working in practice.

 

[Vaecrius]

It should definitely NOT become the norm and frankly i'd avoid any server using it.

It can't adapt to the different difficulties without excessive balancing per difficulty which would then fall down with differing player count and this couldn't be compensated for because player count can vary constantly.
You are forced into playing a single perk all game because changing takes you right back down to lvl0 on the other perk.
Anyone joining late is royally ****ed.
Having to grind every game would be tedious and you'd just ruin it for anyone who doesn't want to play according to your 'requirements'.
The games cash problem might be overcome a little but there are definitely better ways to do it.

The thread should've just ended with everyone agreeing to this.