Not enough incentive to play as a team?

[Wodin]

People need to give the game some time....in a few motnhs from now most people still playing will be teamworkers...so I'm not worried about it at all.

It will come into it's own....wait for BF3 to come out and I bet no one works as a team then either...maybe down the line they do, but it wont happen around release...everyone will be running around like headless chickens getting to know maps etc etc...

 

[Maizel]

It's the gameplay, One spawns, zip saround at near light speed until one dies.

There isn't much teamwork in public BC2 or CoD servers, I do not expect to see much in RO2.

I think the game is improved in most areas, but when it comes to playing tactically, or using teamwork, the game has undeniably given in somewhat.

 

[Flyynt]

I don't get the argument that, "once most people quit playing, there will be more teamwork."

I don't understand what saying, "there is no more teamwork in other games" has to do with anything.

Whether or not there is more teamwork in BC2 is irrelevant. I feel like BC2 makes it easy for me to at least try to play as a team. I know what my objectives are, I can stay with my team, I know how I can be of help to my squad, and I know where they are.

I fell like, at the present state of affairs, RO2 punishes me for trying. I try to join a squad (difficult enough to begin with as I am using eyefinity and I can hardly read the menus) and then spawn on my leader. Many times I can not even accomplish that as apparently there are certain circumstances that prevent me from doing this (there seems to be some debate on exactly what those circumstances are). This should NOT be a mystery, nor should I need to consult a guide or a wiki, the game should communicate this information to me. Having failed at spawning on my squad leader (for whatever reason), I then try to make my way over to him. I find that I spend most of my time trying to find my squad leader. While I am in transit my squad leader dies. He spawns in an entirely different place now. So I am off once again to join up with my squad... I die. I then try to spawn on my squad leader, mystery reason prevents me from doing so... I spawn and then try to make my way over to my squad leader. Map timer expires, the end. If I just ignore my squad, and play alone I actually get to participate in some actual game play before the timer goes off.

This situation is not conducive to team play. It actually makes it hard for people to play as a team. The lone wolf gets rewarded, the guy desperately chasing his squad around the map gets punished. Whether or not people play as a team in BC2 there are at least the proper facilities to allow me to try.

Also, as I and many others have learned in this thread, there are bonuses for playing as a team. Why is it that so many do not seem to know this? This information needs to be communicated by the interface in a clear, yet non-intrusive fashion (yes I know that is difficult to do - presumably this is why interface designers are paid money).

Of course, I should just find a group of people that play at the same time I do, on the same days that I do, in the same fashion that I like to play, and form a group with them. I should not expect to just be able to play a team based shooter as a team when I feel like it. How silly of me!

I want to like RO2! I paid for RO2, of course I want to like it! It's setting is directly in my wheelhouse. It's atmosphere is what I crave. It's attention to detail speaks to me. I expected to face some frustration from being new to the series and dying quite a bit. I did not expect to find so much frustration from fighting the game itself, it's interface, and a general sense of unintuitiveness! I just want to be able to focus on playing the game. I want to fight the Germans/Russians with my team, my squad. I want to focus on staying alive, and keeping the rest of my team alive. Fighting tooth and nail together to overcome our enemy. I am tired of fighting the interface and game systems instead.

 

[Wodin]

Your points for kills on Obj's and team assist and leader protection come up in the right hand corner.

 

[Nenjin]

Also there needs to be more information about where the squad leader/squad mates are. HUD Icons or situational awareness cues for example. I know the Realism fan boys are going grumble at this, but this is a computer game, we need assistance to ascertain the situation a player is in. In real life, we instinctively know. Its not possible in a game looking at a 2D screen with a llimited field of view.

All that is already in game. It's called the tactical view. You hit it, and you can see where your SL is as an icon, and distance to him. Coupled with the mini-map and the full map, you have ALL the information you need to figure out where they are.

While in a squad, give the squad members more information about what the squad leader wants them to do. The orders system is too ineffective. Theres no obvious way to know what the objective is.

Again, tactical view. The same kind of marker that tells you where your squad leader is tells you where to move to. If it says "attack" and it's sitting in the middle of a capture zone, you can safely assume what they want you to do.

The only thing lacking IMO is knowing when orders have been issued because it's easy for that to get lost in the spam. But if you're checking your tac few like a good soldier, it's not a problem.

Bottom line to me: Team play only works if people expend the brain power and their time to understand it. Team play in RO2 is no more complex than BF2, BC2, or any other squad-based FPS. It's just a little larger in scope, and a messy interface makes people stop trying to figure it out. It isn't that complicated and the game is providing tons of good cues and information. There's just a lot of it, it's messy (like spotting marks in FPS view) and people aren't using the tools they're being given.

Whether or not there is more teamwork in BC2 is irrelevant. I feel like BC2 makes it easy for me to at least try to play as a team. I know what my objectives are, I can stay with my team, I know how I can be of help to my squad, and I know where they are.

BC2 vet here. So I feel like I'm qualified to make the comparison.

Everything BC2 is telling the player, RO2 is telling them. You can see all your teammates and squad members on the full map view. You can see them on a mini-map view. You can see all the info in 1st person that BC2 keeps on the screen at all times, simply by hitting the tac view screen. The only problem I've having with squad cohesion, other squadmates refusing to stay with their squad leader, is the distance and somewhat randomness of spawning on your squad leader. I can figure out where they are, eventually, though.

You can see the objectives, clearly. You can see the little colored borders around them that tell you whether or not they're actually capturable, and how close you have to stand. You can see the little capture indicator at the bottom of the screen filling up or decreasing, telling you who is fighting for the point.

What people aren't getting/aren't seeing is how each gameplay mode works. In Barracks Territory, the NCO Office and the Infirmary are the two focal points of the game. If both are captured by a side, it opens up the next two objective areas and CLOSES down your two rear objective areas. That's why the people trying to flank extremely left or right to get in behind the enemy are wasting their time for the most part, as far as winning the game. They can't capture those rear points and they're not scoring team points for shooting the dozens of enemies streaming in to defend. Sure they're helping the defenders.....but not at 120 meters from the objective.

The whole objective swapping thing is far more than BC2 does, and it's why people are confused. It's like Rush mode if Rush mode could go backwards. CoD and BF players are used to all objectives being capturable at all times and, when they realize this isn't the case in RO2, rather than stopping and observing and trying to figure out what's going on.......they just sit in a building or come to the forums and say these things don't work.

When you're able to see the big picture in each game and understand your part in it, it's quite epic. Just like Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory was back in the day, there's an actual flow to the battle and it has a story.

 

[39th Guards]

I'm not sure how the bonuses factor in yet. I know the stats are saving now, but the stats system still does not seem to fully recognize every action and level that you are awarded. With the possible fixing or upping of the rewards given to players actually shooting people out of capture zones, moving in and capturing points, or protecting squad leaders and members, I believe that teamplay will start to pop up.

There are issues. I am not really sure how much power the commander has to give orders or actually motive forces to move forward. My only interaction with a commander is when I was picking off advancing German's on Silo, and he decided it was FAR more effective to teamkill the third-highest ranked Russian due to his ego issues. On Silo I have seen loads of German's running into the main building just to spawncamp for five seconds until they get killed. I think that once people are actually working towards gaining rank and prestige that they will actually try to work for the benefit of their team, as long as the benefits of doing that carry over to an actual noticeable benefit over the "I WILL BE LIKE ENEMY AT THE GATES AND LONE SNIPEEEEE ALL DAYZ LONG..........Jude Law." I know that I will be working hard to get a grungy-looking 'Hero' character.

 

[Nachoguy5]

God, I watched a friend of mine play the Beta for the first time. He played it as if it were Call of Duty, sprinting around, hipfiring at enemies from way past the normal distance. It just...*facepalm* it grinds my gears man. And the thing is he kept making the bottom of the scoreboard and losing the matches I even suggested he switch up his playstyle and focus on teamwork but nope. I know this isn't exactly productive to the topic but it sure seems to fit. A lot of newbies to this kind of game tend to play it as if it were the games they came from. People who play Arma and Americas Army over Cod and Battlefield are probably going to be in the green on this game.

 

[Nenjin]

People who play Arma and Americas Army over Cod and Battlefield are probably going to be in the green on this game.

I've played plenty of BF games without ever sinking time into the other two great "realism" shooters. I do just fine. RO2, to be honest, plays a lot like BC2 hardcore in the short range fire fight department. The biggest difference between RO2 and mainstream shooters to me is how defensively you play. For all people talking about guys with smgs running amok, I see them die just like everyone else.

RO2's gameplay isn't some big mystery. It's time and experience like any other games with more going on than simply shooting another dude.

 

[Nachoguy5]

I've played plenty of BF games without ever sinking time into the other two great "realism" shooters. I do just fine. RO2, to be honest, plays a lot like BC2 hardcore in the short range fire fight department. The biggest difference between RO2 and mainstream shooters to me is how defensively you play. For all people talking about guys with smgs running amok, I see them die just like everyone else.

RO2's gameplay isn't some big mystery. It's time and experience like any other games with more going on than simply shooting another dude.

This much is true. It's not that hard to adapt. But what I'm saying is that people who are coming from the "Get shot, die" games instead of the "Bunny hop and fire your gun like a maniac" games (Battlefield is somewhere in the middle, occasionally in this aspect) are probably going to have an easier time adapting than those who regularly play, and live by the crazy bunny hopping rules of call of duty and halo

 

[Nenjin]

Yeah. Even at its sprintiest RO2 has a slower and bulkier field. And you don't jump so much as hop 6" off the ground. About the only thing RO2 does as fast as other games is the turning speed.

Although I wonder how fast you could move with no grenades and just a pistol on you, since movement speed is relative to your soldier's weight.

 

[Nachoguy5]

Yeah. Even at its sprintiest RO2 has a slower and bulkier field. And you don't jump so much as hop 6" off the ground. About the only thing RO2 does as fast as other games is the turning speed.

Although I wonder how fast you could move with no grenades and just a pistol on you, since movement speed is relative to your soldier's weight.

Probably about as fast if not a little faster than you could in KF with your knife out, without sprinting of course. Of course this is just an assumption as I have yet to play the game made the silly choice of pre-ordering the regular edition

 

[Gaizokubanou]

One simple improvement I would like to see is just cleaner squad selection/management screen. I'm pretty sure it's not complex or anything but no option to change squad in mid game and on first glance it looked bit weird felt awkward.

Or I could be a complete newbie to be expecting multiple squads in this game

 

[MrLebanon]

i found the best way to give a sense of teamwork was to take a leader position and dish out commands

i took commander
and my friend was on skype with took squad leader

when we communicated in game together others followed suit
had a good few rounds of well coordinated wins on apartments (well, as well coordinated as you can get with random people you don't know)

but yeah there is little incentive

i got very few points.. but I had fun
mostly sat around typing out plans, and then run in with smoke cover during our big attacks

 

[Nenjin]

The Squad Select screen screws up for me, so I have to use the Esc menu. When I try to hold down my key for the SS screen, it drops as soon as I move my mouse to select something.

 

[Deek]

Teamwork CAN happen in RO2, but the interface is deliberately and unnecessary obtuse.

I understand that grognards don't want a bunch of gamey icons gumming up their immersion, but there should be an option for a permanent squad overlay for the people that want or need it, something that clearly shows squad mates, communicates who is speaking via VOIP and any other handy teamplay-related information. Naturally, this overlay should be optional for the individual who demands maximum immersion, but there is absolutely no good reason not to include it if doing so would dramatically improve the gameplay experience for everyone who doesn't have the time or inclination to join a realism unit or a clan.

Playing as a team should be intuitive and hassle free. Right now, it's not ... and that results in the vast majority of players ignoring the key, fundamental aspects of effective squad-based teamplay. Hardcore realism doesn't have to be inaccessible to the average player. The realism is in the lethality of the weapons, the authenticity of the environments and the virtual soldiers' response to the rigors of combat, not in the number of onscreen icons making communication and coordination easier.

 

[MrLebanon]

couldn't agree more Deek
the minimalist HuD - no matter how clean and "realistic"

has locked out a lot of key features that would allow basic teamplay
half the time I don't know where my squad is or how to communicate with them effectively

 

[Nenjin]

You seriously want icons for up to 16 people on your screen at all times? Even for the ones that are 100s of meters away? You can see the green dots on your mini-map, and their names at up to 50 meters at least. The tac key is all you need when you're so far away from your squad leader you can't see their name or their icon on your mini-map.

I appreciate, a lot, the lack of that stuff on my screen, because people snipe you through pinholes and you need to be able to see all that without icons cluttering up your screen. Just watch when sometimes the tac view bugs out and activates when an objective is captured. The screen lights up with icons and it's a horrible mess.

I can appreciate wanting icons for your squad mates and being able to customize what you want to a T. But I think people are being obstinate about learning it. They want it to work seamlessly and fluidly and without effort when, in reality, you hit the tac view for 3 seconds after doing something, get your bearings and go. If EVERYONE was doing that, you'd see gameplay a hell of a lot more coordinated than it is right now.

You know other people around you "get it" when you cap a point and everyone starts heading the same direction, covering as they go.

 

[Makino]

There is incentive but people is not caring for this yet as the progression is not activated on most servers or bugged, dunno.

 

[Alois Himmel]

This will sound horrible, but I'm going to say it anyway. The squad system is taking a page right out of the BF series. The fact that you cannot spawn on the squad leader inside of caps and in certain situations is Tripwires way of trying to preserve what bit of realism that this sort of system gives.

There are two solutions that I see to this problem.

Go full on BF!
Use the system as BF designed it. This means that squad leaders are presented as numbers on the map that are easy to find. Orders can be marked on the map by the SL which can be easily seen on the mini map. And allow the players to spawn on the SL unless he is in an area where space won't allow it, or he is wounded. This will allow for the type of tactics which the BF series uses, which is primarily the strategic placement of SL's to allow for troops to spawn in close to an enemy strong hold and rush the place.

Go full on Realism!
Get rid of the spawn on squad leader option to keep people from using hiding SL and spawn bomb tactics. Still give the bonuses for protecting and staying with the squad leader (like in PR). And make it easy to see your squad leader on the map, and to see his move and attack markers on the map.

In sticking with true Tripwire fashion, they should allow for both to be used. Make it and option, or a series of options in the server list.

Also realism units and such that are devoted to teamwork, will slowly start to bring that into the game once they get used to the games maps and system.

 

[Deek]

couldn't agree more Deek
the minimalist HuD - no matter how clean and "realistic"

has locked out a lot of key features that would allow basic teamplay
half the time I don't know where my squad is or how to communicate with them effectively

Indeed. And I love me hardcore, I only play Realistic (and will likely play custom servers that add even more realism), but that makes it worse because now, in the absence of persistent player tags and mini map, I can only track my teammates with the tactical overlay or the toggled map, neither of which is intuitive or ideal. In reality, I would be able to pick my SL out of crowd. I'd know his face, his voice, what he looks like. I'd have the subconscious human spatial perception required to track and move alongside squad mates in the general vicinity without needing to refer to radar ... but in a game you simply do not have that luxury.