Not Afraid to Die?

[ACExpugno]

There has been alot of complaints of how all the maps are "run and gun maps". The main argument is that they are simply too small and dont allow for the longer range comabt seen in RO1.

This having been said, I feel that a major component of this argument is missing. With the ability to "run and gun" and then quickly resume combat people are less and less afraid to die. I remember on RO1 maps I would have to occasioanlly spend a few minutes getting myself to the Objective. Consequently i was afriad to died and "valued" my lives.

This also detracts from the experience. Now matter how graphically appealing artillery, gun fire, or tanks are, they lose their impact if im not afraid of them. I should feel the need to stay alive.

In essence, I should be afraid. The thunder of artillery, the sound of a Tank, the crack of a rifle, should set me on edge and make me feel like running for cover. This will never happen as long as small maps dont give us the desire to stay alive.

 

[Don Draper]

I agree. And i think alot of people use up the reinforcments with out thinking.

I expect an assault class to lose there life more..but kill more too.

I have thought about how there is someway to assign Reinforcements more on a time scale of Kills V Deaths V Caps per Class selection.

So your time before respawn would be based on how well you are doing.... ie: low deaths/ higher kills and good capping will give you a quicker respawn.

of course implementing this would be a nightmare.

But like in war... those that waste there resources should not be tolerated.

This would have another effect... if some one is just throwing there life away in a team with open online games they would not be able to respawn so quickly there fore helping the team... some times you are better off with out some one who is getting killed 30 times a game... they are taking a huge percentage of the reinforcements.

This would increase realism as well... But yeh.. i imagine very hard to implement. ..and maybe deemed unfari on beginner players or those with average pings.

 

[mrPuma]

Agree. Lockdown does this too on some maps. For example red october for ruskies. All u can do is try to run for the next objective or lose the game due to lockdown. Capping the first objective is particulary horrendus as I feel i dont have the time to plan and use tactics with the lockdown timer ticking in the backround.

The fear of death phenomenon has been proven in arma too. When they introduced healing and respawn, many ppl got careless about dying, this can be multiply 100 times in RO because maps are small and dying loose its meaning as respawn only takes 20 seconds.

offtopic: How is it that the paths for ruskie objectives are pretty much allways deathtraps? sure ruskies get extra tickets but its just not fun being cannonfodder..

 

[Gudenrath]

There has been alot of complaints of how all the maps are "run and gun maps". The main argument is that they are simply too small and dont allow for the longer range comabt seen in RO1.

This having been said, I feel that a major component of this argument is missing. With the ability to "run and gun" and then quickly resume combat people are less and less afraid to die. I remember on RO1 maps I would have to occasioanlly spend a few minutes getting myself to the Objective. Consequently i was afriad to died and "valued" my lives.

This also detracts from the experience. Now matter how graphically appealing artillery, gun fire, or tanks are, they lose their impact if im not afraid of them. I should feel the need to stay alive.

In essence, I should be afraid. The thunder of artillery, the sound of a Tank, the crack of a rifle, should set me on edge and make me feel like running for cover. This will never happen as long as small maps dont give us the desire to stay alive.

Well, it was far from every map in RO1 where it took a few minutes to get to objective, in fact it was a minority of maps. So it can't be the full explanation for the phenomenon you are describing.

 

[Richey79]

Good point, OP.

 

[SnowyOak]

I'm actually gonna start playing ultra realism, where if I die I have to quit out of the server. <--entirely serious, by the way.

 

[defektive]

It

 

[Zetsumei]

while there is no sense of fear, you can't have actual fear as a driving factor in video games as logically you won't really fear dying. And most systems in return simply make you wait longer or whatever to spawn.

The key point to realilstic gameplay in the end In my opinion is making it such that playing realistically gives the best results. People should stop run and gunning because tactical play is more effective, the issue is that currently that isn't the case.

Which is why I think that while you cannot get fear of death in a game, you can get people acting similar as if they would have a fear of death. An example would be for instance DH's suppression system, you don't fear death but suppression makes you act similar as if you would have fear.

 

[Mike_Nomad]

----- snip -----

The key point to realilstic gameplay in the end In my opinion is making it such that playing realistically gives the best results. People should stop run and gunning because tactical play is more effective, the issue is that currently that isn't the case. ----- snip -----

Sorry but generalizations just don't make it. RnG is absent on those servers advising such play is not appreciated. The result is that both the strategy, suspense and fear of death is highly evident. I believe in CHOICE - NOT have the game and its play-ability dictated to me by those who force their wants and wishes upon me. Choice is the key.

Right now we have choices... there are servers out there like ours that offer true play-ability without RnG. :IS2:

 

[Proud_God]

I'm actually gonna start playing ultra realism, where if I die I have to quit out of the server. <--entirely serious, by the way.

I go do a household shore when I die. Believe me, that also adds fear of death.

 

[Gudenrath]

Sorry but generalizations just don't make it. RnG is absent on those servers advising such play is not appreciated. The result is that both the strategy, suspense and fear of death is highly evident. I believe in CHOICE - NOT have the game and its play-ability dictated to me by those who force their wants and wishes upon me. Choice is the key.

Right now we have choices... there are servers out there like ours that offer true play-ability without RnG. :IS2:

I think that is also the point he is making. If the game awards tactical playing then more people would prefer playing that way, while they can still run and gun to their hearts content if they prefer that, they just won't get much out of it in the form of official recognition, but it is still a choice that can be made.

That is already somewhat the way RO2 works, giving a lot of extra team points for taking objectives, being present in them when the enemy caps and last but not least shooting enemies in the cap instead of camping in spawn shooting stray enemies far from objectives.

And regarding OP I must admit I don't actually recognise what he is describing. The fear of death to me in RO1 and RO2 are precisely the same, ie it is a nuisance getting killed rather than actual fear, but enough to try and not get killed too often (although I rarely succeed in that ). But that is the way it works in most fps. I think only in gamemodes, like countdown, where you only have 1 life does it work in any serious way to influence the players behaviour. And that is not a gamemode I fancy, I am quite fond of territory and the more continous action it provides.

 

[Needles]

There has been alot of complaints of how all the maps are "run and gun maps". The main argument is that they are simply too small and dont allow for the longer range comabt seen in RO1.

This having been said, I feel that a major component of this argument is missing. With the ability to "run and gun" and then quickly resume combat people are less and less afraid to die. I remember on RO1 maps I would have to occasioanlly spend a few minutes getting myself to the Objective. Consequently i was afriad to died and "valued" my lives.

This also detracts from the experience. Now matter how graphically appealing artillery, gun fire, or tanks are, they lose their impact if im not afraid of them. I should feel the need to stay alive.

In essence, I should be afraid. The thunder of artillery, the sound of a Tank, the crack of a rifle, should set me on edge and make me feel like running for cover. This will never happen as long as small maps dont give us the desire to stay alive.

Agree on everything. And the suppression doesnt work. Should be more like suppression in DH.

 

[Zetsumei]

Sorry but generalizations just don't make it. RnG is absent on those servers advising such play is not appreciated.

Sure there are even realism servers in COD where people are forced to play realistically or get kicked off the server. That doesn't mean COD is a realistic game with realistic actions.

If you want a game where people automatically play realistic, you need to make the game such that realistic behaviour gives better results than run and gun behaviour.

If you believe in choice then people should be allowed to play however they prefer to play including run and gunning. The key is for an overall realistic experience to simply make tactical play more effective than run and gunning. As people will try to obtain the best results and play according to the method to obtain the best results. In arma2 everybody can run and gun whatever they want its simply not effective.

I've never experienced fear of death in any RO title, including single life realism matches. Or competitive matches with the best of people. Perhaps you encounter a fear of death on your server, but most people won't fear a computer game.

 

[Major Liability]

I think the fearlessness people feel in RO2 is more due to how hard it is to hit sprinting targets with the current netcode. In Ostfront I think before I expose myself every time because I know if there is a somewhat competent player watching I will be shot. In RO2 a lot of times I can just sprint around in an irregular pattern and they usually don't hit me. Sometimes it's so bad I can let them empty a magazine at me and then stop moving, bring up my sights, and one hit kill them because they are a stationary target and I was not. Fix that, and it will be "scary" to expose yourself again.

I know what the OP is talking about though - one life per round with realistic damage was what made Hostile Intent so incredibly intense. When you're the only one left alive and you have no idea how many enemies remain it really puts you on edge, listening for any noise and firing at shadows.

 

[MarioBava]

Sorry but generalizations just don't make it. RnG is absent on those servers advising such play is not appreciated. The result is that both the strategy, suspense and fear of death is highly evident. I believe in CHOICE - NOT have the game and its play-ability dictated to me by those who force their wants and wishes upon me. Choice is the key.

Right now we have choices... there are servers out there like ours that offer true play-ability without RnG. :IS2:

Yep.

 

[defektive]

I think the fearlessness people feel in RO2 is more due to how hard it is to hit sprinting targets with the current netcode.

True. I try to avoid exploiting this but sometimes, often when I've been pegged twice by the same guy hiding in the same place, I rage-default to perma-running and zig-zagging with a sharp stick. Rifle shots repeatedly ring out often to no effect; SMGs sputter away until empty, even when face to face; and more often than not my targets die to the inevitable sticking, which doesn't even slow me down. The only weapon that seems to be even remotely effective at stopping a zig-zagging bayo charge is a fully loaded MG, purely because they can spray and pray over a wider arc for longer.

 

[MarioBava]

I think I disagree with the notion in the OP, partly because what is cited as creating "fear" of death is long distances to objectives. Uggh. That's not fear of death, that's frustration of 50% of the game being a cross country track team simulator.

But also partly because I value lives in the game as it is now, but what I value more than lives is success. And it requires you and your teammates being alive in the capzones to succeed. That's where my value in lives is in the game, not in trying the best I can to avoid an odious run across deserted areas of the battlefield. This requires a sense of when to rush and when to be careful. It is quite possible, in real life and in the game, for a soldier to value his life too much. On the other end of the spectrum from the run n' gunner who may have an inflated sense of his or her contribution is the player who barely even contributes because he's so careful --and also may have an inflated sense of his or her contribution.

I'm not, and I believe the majority of RO2 players are like me, playing the game to just mindlessly run around and blast away regardless of anything; I'm playing it to enjoy progressive battles, teamwork, win (and lose) rounds and matches. Dying in the game is frustrating enough as it is. I think it's a bad idea to make half of the game intentionally not fun for reason of making people avoid the risk of having that part of the game be more than half of their experience of it.

 

[Mekhazzio]

I think the fearlessness people feel in RO2 is more due to how hard it is to hit sprinting targets with the current netcode.

Bingo. We can't even appropriately judge how the gameplay would sort out, because the networking model in use skews things so far towards the mover's favor that it cancels out all the disadvantages that would otherwise be in play.

Although the lenient death penalty is a valid point. The respawn times are the same, but the travel time from respawn point to objective tends to be much shorter in RO2. Bumping the spawns farther back from objectives would give a more significant death penalty while also making the protected areas around them intrude less into tactically useful areas.

 

[melipone]

The best way to simulate "fear of death" is to make you lose something when you die. Games with full loot like Eve Online or Ultima were you lose all your currently held items do this the best. So something must be on the line for you to "fear death". There has to be a consequence. The most simple one for an FPS game is having your game time taken away from you (respawn time or 1 life per round), or putting pressure on you in some way like having to pull off some challenge such as being outnumbered or under a time limit. Lockdown style pressure doesn't really work though imo, since you never really get a chance for the game to develop so that you actually care about the victory.

For RO2 you spawn fast, can run fast to the action or spawn directly in it, don't worry about reinforcements and don't really care about victory conditions. A lack of suspense and consequence. Gameplay should build up to peaks with lots of troughs for people to stay interested imo, otherwise the action can become stale imo or lack excitement. Victory conditions can be vague or seem unimportant at times or possibly due to a lack of teamplay incentives/ramboing gameplay.

 

[Mormegil]

Maybe more servers should run Count Down. Anybody else remember that game mode?

Also, when the online multiplayer campaign mode goes live, *maybe* people will think about saving their reinforcements, since it'll carry over war power for meta-game.