No way to balance tanks

[gimpy117]

If the KV-2 ever gets ingame, and I hope it will because that would mean:

*Glorious music starts playing in the background*


STURER EMIL!

Behold the power of the 128mm Anti tank gun on tracks in Stalingrad!

It knocked out 22 Soviet tanks from miles away, it operated in and around Stalingrad as well!

*Edit, dang it k9mike.

and what...like 2 of them were sent to the front. But i'm sure TW would give them 4 per team.
but the thing is, these tanks had little impact. Sure, 22 tanks is nice...but whoopty dee. without computerizes fire control it was still probably hit and miss, I bet it fired way more than 22 shells. and besides, there were Tiger I's that took out the same # of t-34's in A SINGLE ENGAGEMENT.

 

[TheRealGunther]

and what...like 2 of them were sent to the front. But i'm sure TW would give them 4 per team.
but the thing is, these tanks had little impact. Sure, 22 tanks is nice...but whoopty dee. without computerizes fire control it was still probably hit and miss, I bet it fired way more than 22 shells. and besides, there were Tiger I's that took out the same # of t-34's in A SINGLE ENGAGEMENT.

Assault guns was good for 1 thing ...ambushing

During tank vs tank engagements they was at a disadvantage they had thin armor(early ones anyway) and no turret so was easily flanked.The main reason Germany produced so many assault guns is they lacked the ball barrens to produce turreted tanks.Not to mention they was a lot cheaper to mass produce as Germany's industry was taking a beating.

 

[Field Marshal Rommel]

IIRC it's the "J1" sub type with the L42 gun

That is an incorrect contradiction. The J had the L/42 whereas the J

 

[CaptHawkeye]

The T-34 was around, and in plenty of numbers, during Operation Barbarossa. Even during the early stages as the Germans swept aside whole Groups of the Red Army. Mannstein and co. conspicuously didn't start complaining about the T-34 and KV-1 until after the operation's failure. It's pretty clear they were just looking for a scapegoat to blame their stillborn blitzkrieg on.

I'm tellin ya, if the Wehrmacht had gotten held up this badly in France, then we'd be hearing about how the Somua and Char were the greatest tanks of WW2.

 

[gimpy117]

I'm tellin ya, if the Wehrmacht had gotten held up this badly in France, then we'd be hearing about how the Somua and Char were the greatest tanks of WW2.

Superior tactics. Which, Is a moot point in Ro2 since we aren't the German or Soviet army, rather a bunch of 21st century guys behind a keyboard.

"1940, the vast majority of Char B1 combat losses were inflicted by German artillery and anti-tank guns. In direct meetings with German tanks the Char B1 usually had the better of it, sometimes spectacularly so as when on 16 May a single tank, Eure, frontally attacked and destroyed thirteen German tanks lying in ambush in Stonne, all of them Panzer IIIs and Panzer IVs, in the course of a few minutes. The tank safely returned despite being hit 140 times. Similarly, in his book Panzer Leader, Heinz Guderian related an incident, which took place during a tank battle south of Juniville: "While the tank battle was in progress, I attempted, in vain, to destroy a Char B with a captured 47-mm anti-tank gun; all the shells I fired at it simply bounced harmlessly off its thick armor. Our 37-mm and 20-mm guns were equally ineffective against this adversary. As a result, we inevitably suffered sadly heavy casualties"."

"The S 35s gave a good account of themselves, proving to be indeed superior to the German tanks in direct combat, but they were rather hesitantly deployed as the French High Command mistakenly supposed the gap was the German Schwerpunkt and tried to preserve their best tanks to block subsequent attacks by the rest of the Panzerwaffe."

 

[CaptHawkeye]

Literally every one of those stories happened pretty much the same exact way on the Eastern Front. Just replace "Char" with "KV-1" and "T-34" with "Somua S-35". Unlike France Russia is much bigger however, so AA detachments armed with 88s often took much longer to respond.

If they even could that is, since most of the roads in Russia are dirt tracks if even that. Meaning that in a lot of cases when a KV-1 broke through the line literally all the Germans could do was wait for it to run out of gas or break down.

Issues in command and control were basically not much better in the Red Army than in the French Army. Stalin's purges totally broke the Red Army's back and a lack of competent NCOs for a while meant that in practice, the Red Army was every bit as incompetently deployed and led as the French Army during Barbarossa. Difference is, the Reds could afford to lose whole Armies.

 

[Sufyan]

and what...like 2 of them were sent to the front. But i'm sure TW would give them 4 per team.
but the thing is, these tanks had little impact. Sure, 22 tanks is nice...but whoopty dee. without computerizes fire control it was still probably hit and miss, I bet it fired way more than 22 shells. and besides, there were Tiger I's that took out the same # of t-34's in A SINGLE ENGAGEMENT.

While I'm not at all interested in seeing Emil or it's bigger brother in the game, 22 kills for a single vehicle, and pressumably a single crew, makes them aces among veterans in the real world. Most frontline infantrymen would not even go on to kill 22 enemy soldiers in the whole war, and most tank crews never got to destroy enemy tanks. I doubt many fighter pilots scored more than a handful of confirmed kills in the entire war either.

For it's limited duration of service, 22 kills is a brilliant tally for the Sturer Emil.

 

[Teufel Hund]

Superior tactics. Which, Is a moot point in Ro2 since we aren't the German or Soviet army, rather a bunch of 21st century guys behind a keyboard.

and the lack of radios (and therefore coordination) on the Russian side. But that's another factor we can't add in game.

 

[Teufel Hund]

Taking into account armour types and quality and shells with caps or not starts to become burdensome. Even WWIIOL never bothered with these things, and it has hands down the best tank sim out there IMO. Best thing for tanks to get as reasonably close as possible to realism and let the tankers do the rest. That means accurate armour values, accurate penetration tables, and a good model. Factoring in alleged armour quality defects, shell defects (things basically unmeasurable as they varied from tanks to tank or factory to factory, from year to year) and other stuff just becomes overwhelming and bitter sources of dispute.

But you simply can not accurately model tank warfare without considering these factors.

 

[Rumpullpus]

never had a problem with the T34, its just different. its lighter and faster and isnt really meant to fight at super long ranges like the panzer is. people just need to use them better.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

A great heavy tank match up for Stalingrad I think would be a Russian KV-2 vs a German refitted Kv-1 ...that or just 2 identical kv-1's so crew skill would be the only factor.

lol, you kidding ? Would become one giant ping pong match, as the rather weak 76.2mm gun was unable to penetrate the front at any range, and would even have great trouble with the sides as-well!

If the KV-1 is to enter the game, then the Germans will need the Tiger. The Soviets could then get the KV-2 as-well, but honestly adding the Tiger will make sure that the Soviets are going to lose A LOT more tanks than the Germans on any tank map, which is fine historically speaking - but dang, I'm not sure a whole lot of people find it entertaining being nothing but gunfodder.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

and what...like 2 of them were sent to the front. But i'm sure TW would give them 4 per team.
but the thing is, these tanks had little impact. Sure, 22 tanks is nice...but whoopty dee. without computerizes fire control it was still probably hit and miss, I bet it fired way more than 22 shells. and besides, there were Tiger I's that took out the same # of t-34's in A SINGLE ENGAGEMENT.

Well, depending on the range at which the engagements took place it is quite possible that few more than 22 rounds were used to take out those 22 Soviet tanks by those two Sturer Emil's. The accuracy of the gun was such that if the aim was right, proper range setting and so forth, a hit could be obtained on a 2x2.5m target at 2 km distance 87% of the time.

Compturized fire control only really helps against moving targets.

 

[wokelly]

The T-34 was around, and in plenty of numbers, during Operation Barbarossa. Even during the early stages as the Germans swept aside whole Groups of the Red Army. Mannstein and co. conspicuously didn't start complaining about the T-34 and KV-1 until after the operation's failure. It's pretty clear they were just looking for a scapegoat to blame their stillborn blitzkrieg on.

Most of the Russian tanks broke down in 1941. The Germans dominated the air and smashed the Russian logistic lines. What was not smashed was screwed up by incompetent sovier commanders who could not figure out how to supply their guys. There were large numbers of T-34s in 1941, but the accounts of encounters are fairly rare compared to their numbers. The simple fact is the Germans rarely encountered the T-34 because most simply broke down or ran out of fuel trying to get to the front, or trying to get out of some massive encirclement.

That is not to say the German Generals did not scape goat everything but themselves when it came to defeat (Blaming Hitler for not going to Moscow while ignoring the 800k soviets in the Ukraine that had to be defeated first, a decision they understood at the time but than post war they blamed for defeat). But the T-34 was a big shock.

I'm tellin ya, if the Wehrmacht had gotten held up this badly in France, then we'd be hearing about how the Somua and Char were the greatest tanks of WW2.

Yeah well they weren't but they still did. Lots of very shocked reports from commanders about how their tanks had a poor time against French tanks like the Bis 1 and S-35.

 

[gimpy117]

While I'm not at all interested in seeing Emil or it's bigger brother in the game, 22 kills for a single vehicle, and pressumably a single crew, makes them aces among veterans in the real world. Most frontline infantrymen would not even go on to kill 22 enemy soldiers in the whole war, and most tank crews never got to destroy enemy tanks. I doubt many fighter pilots scored more than a handful of confirmed kills in the entire war either.

For it's limited duration of service, 22 kills is a brilliant tally for the Sturer Emil.

and in the grand scope of things Emil is still an insignificant footnote in the annals of panzer lore. just because Baja men had the really good one hit wonder: "who let the dogs out" doesn't mean they should be in rock band.

and again, 22 kills total isn't really that much:

On 7 July 1943, a single Tiger tank commanded by SS-Oberscharf

 

[Homuth]

In any case Gimpy, a T34 could only dream hitting anything effectively at those ranges. I would of course like to see this tank at one point, because it was in service only in and around Stalingrad, but then I would also like to see an equivalent Soviet monster, why wouldn't you want a historical correct vehicle added? ( And TWI loves rare items ) Too bad the maps are way to small to give the 128mm it's total dominance on the field.

Also, the Jagdtiger used the same sights AFAIK, and an comparable 128mm gun, with almost the same velocity and penetration values, just sayin'.

 

[gimpy117]

In any case Gimpy, a T34 could only dream hitting anything effectively at those ranges. I would of course like to see this tank at one point, because it was in service only in and around Stalingrad, but then I would also like to see an equivalent Soviet monster, why wouldn't you want a historical correct vehicle added? ( And TWI loves rare items ) Too bad the maps are way to small to give the 128mm it's total dominance on the field.

Also, the Jagdtiger used the same sights AFAIK, and an comparable 128mm gun, with almost the same velocity and penetration values, just sayin'.

yes, because it's a T-34, It's faster, cheaper and far more than 2 were produced. Did you know it's speed is listed at 16 MPH? I can ride a bicycle faster than that. You are comparing apples to oranges here. and, ironically, the F-34 gun on the T-34 can take out Emil at 1,000 yards Emil had (15-50mm armor). Which isn't a stretch having a tank get this close, due to Emil's limited mobility, and lack of gun traverse. I would personally rather see a Sturm-Infanteriegesch

 

[Homuth]

Sturer Emil was best tank of WW.. I mean Stalingrad. Face it.

 

[Overholt]

Pfff, The game has a crappy start, get over it or just mod the darn thing before they even get to the next update lols.

 

[CaptHawkeye]

Those hit rates for the Pak 43 at all ranges reek of bull****. Even the combat statistics are extremely optimistic. The longest recorded hit scored on a tank by any gun during the war was an 88 in North Africa against a Valentine at 1400m. I *cannot* believe they had a 61% hit rate on moving targets at 1500m or even 1000m.

 

[gimpy117]

Sturer Emil was best tank of WW.. I mean Stalingrad. Face it.

really? I hope you're trolling, or just think that firepower is the only thing that matters in tank combat, but really make a reasonable case for it being the "Best tank of Stalingrad" other than "it's got a big honkin' gun" and I'll listen.