No amount of bug fixing can fix the progression system.

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PermenentMarker

FNG / Fresh Meat
Mar 20, 2006
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I disagree...

Well I agree for a lot of OP's points but.... I really don't see it as a problem.

I have no issue getting on top of the scoreboard with my low level character...

And I am not getting unlocks very fast as I only play a few hours a week...

I am not bothered by people who unlocked better goodies... I find it more challenging and it gives me sweet spoils of war when I killed them.

I love to pick up sweet looking weapons from the battlefield.
 

Grobut

FNG / Fresh Meat
Apr 1, 2006
3,623
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Well when you put it that way I'm inclined to agree, still, I haven't seen any of this "hostility" you talked (typed?) about.

It was a while ago, and quite possibly before you even joined (yeah, people have been arguing about this stuff for a very, very long time on this forum, a lot of us did not like the sound of this system from the very start and argued that it would be bad for the game.. the irony is, as much as we were called alarmists, our worst predictions were tame compared to the reality that HoS has become).

TBH I immensely enjoy the game, even with the stuff I don't like, because the stuff I do like far outweighs that.

Lucky you, sadly i can't say the same.

It has potential, and with the right tweaks, maps and all the ranking BS taken out, i think it could become a really good game. But considdering the product TWI made, i have my doubts that TWI are interested in taking the game in the direction it would need to go for an old RO player like me to like it.

the only this I find is "missing" from the game is that tactical teamwork style gameplay, but that relies on the players not the game, take a horse to water and all that.

Not entirely true, the game's mechanics play a major role in forming team play, and especially in pub servers, it is very important that the game encourages and rewards team play, and that it makes it easy to do, that it makes sense to do on a purely practical level (and yeah we're talking low-level team play here, like sticking togeather, covering your team mates backs, working twords winning the map, pub teamplay. As for high level team play, with elaborate and coordianted tactics and such, that only works for clans, regardless of the game).

Some games are just better at encouraging teamplay than others, it's not only about the players (granted, there are players out there who refuse to play as a team, and you really can't force them to, but most pubbers are not like that, most will try their best if you give them a good reason to).

Ro:Ost was also a game that did a really good job of it, and i have to say it was because in Ost, you were not going to last very long as a lone gunman, you felt vulnerable, and you coulden't just rely on fast twitch shooting skills to stand on your own, the shooting mechanics were not made for easy run and gun lone-wolf gameplay.
That's not to say such play was impossible or unheard of, some people spend god knows how many houers polishing their hip-shooting skillz to a mirror shine just so they could do it, but for most pubbers it made more sense to try and be helpfull to their team (atleast once they figured out how the game and maps worked), it was low-level team play, but it was encouraged and usually worked in a rather natural way, and the slower pace of the game really helped aswell.


In HoS though, you can easilly pick an automatic weapon and go it on your own, the shooting mechanics are very forgiving, so if you are any good at FPS games, you really shoulden't have any problems relying on twitch skills and speed to give you a positive K/D Ratio, encouraging a lot of players to play it just for that. Sure you die faster and from unseen enemies more often in HoS than in other run and gun shooters, but that quickly becomes just a quirk of the game, and is not in itself a good enough reason to seek out teamplay if you can still keep a positive K/D Ratio, thing is, you don't feel vulnerable, the game may have quick deaths, but you don't feel like a small cog in a big machine like you did in Ost, you allways feel like you could shoot your way out of any problem, encouraging you to hone your lone-wolf skills rather than seek out team play.

The speed of the game doesen't help either, be it the very basics of the avatar movement speed, reload speeds, aiming speed, the amount of stamina you get and beeing tired having little effect on you, instant bandages that can give you a second wind, the sheer amount of auto weapons you get, and more, it all serves to make you more capable as a lone-wolf player, and can easilly be used twords thouse ends. But it's also the speed of the gametypes themselves, you not only move faster and fight easier, but you spawn so clouse to objectives in rather small maps, and you've got lockdown to enforce that you hustle and get in there fast, which leaves pubbers with very little time to get a feel for their team or what's going on, it's just rush rush rush, get in there and start shooting at stuff NOW!

HoS is not doing a good job at encouraging team play, it does it more than something like CoD, yes, because it doesen't take much to kill you, but ultimately, it does not drive home the need for teamplay, it doesen't leave pubbers enough breathing room to try and establish it, and it's fundamental mechanics make it far to easy to opt out of it, and just find your own enjoyment in more selfish goals like obtaining a good K/D Ratio, which is much easier to do than try to win the map with a team effort.

But when you do get that ooh is it great:D. I don't think there's anything fundamentally "wrong" with the game, sure there's things I don't like-the progression system, or atleast the way it turned out being one-but I easily look past and forget that when I'm having fun. As with any game for me; as long as it's fun I really don't mind, maybe even don't care about any flaws or things I don't like.

Honestly, the only reason you get the teamplay at all, is because stubborn players who desperately want teamplay, are doing whatever they can to create it, despite the game. It sure as hell doesen't happen organicly in Ro2 like it usually did in Ost.

People keep saying and hoping that larger maps will set it all right, that people just don't understand how to play Ro2 yet but that all will be put right when people get into the groove of things, but it's simply not the case. And it isen't for the same reasons it wasen't in CoD1 and 2, or the BiA games, or the MoH games, or the BF's and so on, thouse were/are all games that when played with similar minded players can be very enjoyable and tactical team games, but only with likeminded players, because that is certainly not how their normal pub servers are played, at all, and it only takes one skilled lone-wolfer with an auto-weapon to screw it all up, because the fundamental gameplay mechanics lets that one guy dominate with his playstyle, it will get him the kills, and you have to adapt to that.

And Ro2, at it's very heart, is not very different from the above mentioned games, it is at it's core a run and gun ego-shooter, and skilled FPS players absolutely can dominate in Ro2 with speed and twitch. It may differ in the fine details, and to it's credit it does make it a little harder to dominate, because the controls are not quite as Quake-like as thouse of CoD, and it doesen't have gamey exploits like Dolphin-diving, but make no mistake, Ro2 very much rewards all thouse classic lone-wolf FPS skillz you've been learning since Doom and Quake, just like CoD did, just like BF2 did, just like MoH:AA and BiA:HH did.

And the ranking system only makes it more so, it gives you wholly self absorbed goals to strive for, for your benifit and yours only.


And that my freinds is why i'm not jumping for joy, because i don't like thouse kinds of games, i didn't like the CoD's, the BiA's, the MoH's or the BF's, they are not my kind of game. Infiltration and RO was my kind of game, but HoS just isen't that, it's just a milder version of your average military themed ego shooter (milder in the sense that it is somewhat more hardcore and tactical than thouse), and as much as some of you may choose to play it more RO style than that, that just doesen't change what the game is, and what you will encounter out there on the servers. It's not the same kind of game that Ost was, it's a different genre just with a similar theme.
 

Proud_God

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 22, 2005
3,235
548
0
Belgium
Completely agree with OP. Please TWI, consider the following:

* On servers with realism setting on 'Normal':
- Everything is like it is now.

* On servers with realism setting on 'Realsitc':
- More realistic class limitation
- Weapon and player stats are the same for everyone. This would not necessarily be the 'level-0' stats, balanced values should be set for all weapon and player stats. Also, for example, the ppsh could start with 1 drum-magazine, and the rest normal magazines.
- You still gain weapon, honor and class XP like in Normal servers, which come into effect when playing on Normal servers
 

NoxNoctum

FNG / Fresh Meat
Jun 15, 2007
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I wish they just stripped it down to purely K/D (I don't like that but I know many do), time used for each weapon etc. (sorta like how BF series kept a record of what weapons you killed what % of people with etc .), and then if they wanted to allow changes make it purely cosmetic stuff, and pretty minor at that. Like maybe small cosmetic variations on an avatar's uniform or weapons but only stuff that had decent representation at the actual battle, nothing TF2-esque.
 

Cyper

Grizzled Veteran
Sep 25, 2011
1,290
1,005
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Sweden
This thing with skillpoints..

It shouldn't be called skillpoints because we all know that any hammerhead can become a skilled player no matter how they play. Your skillpoint doesn't demostrate your skills. It demostrates how much you've played the game and it tells you exactly how to earn these skillpoints. The game simply gives you aids. The more you play it the more aids you unlock. So skillpoints do quite the opposite of showcasing your ability. This also mean that if you aren't ready to invest a lot of time in the game you will simply be left behind while players that play the game often have all the aids, or cheats, as I'd like to call it.

New players starts out with zero aids/skillpoints. That's not logical. If TWI wanted the game more accesible it should be the opposite. The players shoulds start with all the aids instead. Right now they get the aids when they've already learned how to play the game. Unfortunately, few casual gamers actually learn to get into the game simply because it's to frustating and hard for them.

So in my opinion RO2 could have done well with 2 destinctive modes: Arcade and Hardcore. Arcade means all the aids in the beginning, it means lockdowntimer, it means arcade weaponhandling, the current health system, and so on and so on. While hardcore means that there are no ''skillpoints'', or aids at all, while there are no lockdown timer, and a more realistic weapon handling and the more realistic health system that never made it into the game. Trying to mix the Hardcore audience of the game with the Arcade audience of the game will simply make all players dissapointed.


EDIT: I may also say that I didn't buy the game to be FORCED to get aids in forms of skillpoints. Nor did I buy the game in order to be forced to UNLOCK weapons that I want to use. I want to jump right in just like in the old RO.
 
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defektive

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2011
663
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UK
New players starts out with zero aids/skillpoints. That's not logical. If TWI wanted the game more accesible it should be the opposite.
Precisely. One day we'll see a game that implements the Leon ethic of skill progression; the new guys use all of the high technology to get the job done, but if you see a guy armed with naught but a paperclip and a fruit knife - be very, very afraid!

Okay, so that's an extreme example but the underlying ethic is sound: give the new players a helping hand not a slap round the face. Experienced players neither need nor want artificial stat boosts, no matter how "insignificant" they may be. (I happen to think that +10/30% in key game areas is in fact a massive, noticeable boost. And for those who consider them to be insignificant; then why bother with them at all? No matter which perspective you look at this from, it can't be justified.)
 
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[-project.rattus-]

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
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www.youtube.com
Well, concerning the "insignificance" of the stat boosts. I wasn't suffering from wrong weapon levels before the stats reset, having honestly leveld my honor level to 38 and my rifle levels to similar regions.

The gradual improvement of my avatar made me personally less proficient with the rifles. Now back at zero, I have a noticably harder time killing people, as I have grown accustomed to less sway and quicker aiming and reloading...

But I dislike the stats and progression especially from a clan perspective. Before the reset, with no way of getting rid of the whole system for matches, it severely skewered the balance if one team has considerably higher levelled players than the other.
And note, that was BEFORE the reset, so as the levels weren't gained "honestly", it wasn't the team with the higher honor levels to be the more experienced team. It was simply the math behind the system messing up the game.

The problem I goes actually deeper than having a, IMHO unneeded, ranking and unlocking system: It's just that RO2 specifically and multiplayer games in general are not aimed at clans and communities anymore, which would keep a game alive even years after release, but at individual players. Clans supporting games generally don't generate sales, so I guess they're not worth supporting anymore.
Ranks and unlocks prove "longevity" for individual players, but with an expiration date. Once the majority of the playerbase has ranked to the max and unlocked everything, and the addictive cycle of that has run dry, they will go on to other games ot get their fix. Which makes totally sense if you're huge like activision and are able to get out a sequel in time. But for a small team like TWI? Not so much.
So while the system certainly has it's use in motivating a certain kind of players, IMHO it is far outweighed by the disadvantages it has for everyone else.

And that's just generally speaking about such systems.
For RO2, the system is not only out of place, it's actually a bad system. I dare say it here, but CoDBlOps has a much more refined and balanced and more motivating unlock system. So while TWI spoke true that their system won't be like CoD's, even I as a sceptical was surprised that it was actually worse.

I don't need ot repeat the various wrongs with it that were said here, but I'll add another point to the list:

It has too little unlockables. Now that might sound paradoxical in my rant against such a system, but hear me out. If you do a unlocking system, do it right. it doesn't work if you unlock one tiny bit after several hours of play. For it to work and actually hook people who are into that sort of thing, it needs to shell out unlocks in a much higher frequency. With the three to none unlocks per weapon we have now, the main appeal of unlocks, the incremental goals to reach, is not there.
 
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Gaizokubanou

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 5, 2011
525
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Historical unlocks would've been fine, but the straight up upgrade was pretty bad call. In FPS, if you can move 10% faster and have 20% less recoil and sway, that pretty much breaks the game.

Unlocks should have been left to some scopes, skins, etc. Not straight up upgrade.

Not sure what TWI thought on this especially considering how hardcore new players will be getting stomped on by maxed out players. This will be too brutal to new players when the game is already tougher than most other FPS.
 

Westernesse

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 11, 2011
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I like that I have to spend time leveling up a class/weapon to get unlocks/stats with it. It gives you a reason to play, but also defines my play style and makes me stick to a class like SL or MG, but at the same time grab engi on maps where its available and means I haven't played assault much at all. If anything they should decrease the amount required for AT/Engi since they are only playable on 4 of 10 maps. It also means I've barely touched the SMGs since I'm lvling up my semis.

When I play allies all anyone talks about is getting the ppsh drum mag. It seems to be a big goal for a lot of players. What are they playing for if they just start out with it?

I'm not saying the system is perfect, but it does give you goals/defines your identity to certain classes/weapons.

As for it being unfair to new players remember this is a team game. That high lvl player on the axis can be taken out quite easily by your high ranked SL player on allies if your having problems killing him. It might even lead to you sticking close to your SL which is an added bonus. I don't think all the high ranked players are gonna stack one team.
 

grothesj2

FNG / Fresh Meat
Dec 29, 2010
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I like that I have to spend time leveling up a class/weapon to get unlocks/stats with it. It gives you a reason to play, but also defines my play style and makes me stick to a class like SL or MG, but at the same time grab engi on maps where its available and means I haven't played assault much at all. If anything they should decrease the amount required for AT/Engi since they are only playable on 4 of 10 maps. It also means I've barely touched the SMGs since I'm lvling up my semis.

When I play allies all anyone talks about is getting the ppsh drum mag. It seems to be a big goal for a lot of players. What are they playing for if they just start out with it?

I'm not saying the system is perfect, but it does give you goals/defines your identity to certain classes/weapons.

As for it being unfair to new players remember this is a team game. That high lvl player on the axis can be taken out quite easily by your high ranked SL player on allies if your having problems killing him. It might even lead to you sticking close to your SL which is an added bonus. I don't think all the high ranked players are gonna stack one team.
A lot of people play the game to you know, fight and have fun? In RO1 there were no absurd upgrades and it had quite the following. I realize that some folks self-esteem is so low that they need "upgrades" and "levels" to achieve to make themselves feel good about themselves though.
 

defektive

FNG / Fresh Meat
Sep 16, 2011
663
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UK
As for it being unfair to new players remember this is a team game. That high lvl player on the axis can be taken out quite easily by your high ranked SL player on allies if your having problems killing him. It might even lead to you sticking close to your SL which is an added bonus. I don't think all the high ranked players are gonna stack one team.
Do you not see that to new players further along the line pretty much all of the enemy will be stomping all over them with their +10%/30%s (that they don't need, or want in most case)?

I accept that you see nothing wrong with the concept of unlock, but the implementation of it on RO2 has to be among the worst of all FPSs that do this kind of thing. As was mentioned before, the likes of CoD, that TWI spoke so vehmently about not replicating, have a far better - and dare I say it, fairer - system than RO2. On what planet does that make any sense.

The game is already steadily sliding into farce as the number of scoped, bayo'd n00bguns fart their way around on the maps. +10/30% stats boost on top of all that just compounds the issue. It's like the game was designed by school-leavers with an Axis fetish. It's just bizarre.
 

Colt .45 killer

Grizzled Veteran
May 19, 2006
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I like that I have to spend time leveling up a class/weapon to get unlocks/stats with it. It gives you a reason to play, but also defines my play style and makes me stick to a class like SL or MG, but at the same time grab engi on maps where its available and means I haven't played assault much at all. If anything they should decrease the amount required for AT/Engi since they are only playable on 4 of 10 maps. It also means I've barely touched the SMGs since I'm lvling up my semis.

When I play allies all anyone talks about is getting the ppsh drum mag. It seems to be a big goal for a lot of players. What are they playing for if they just start out with it?

I'm not saying the system is perfect, but it does give you goals/defines your identity to certain classes/weapons.

As for it being unfair to new players remember this is a team game. That high lvl player on the axis can be taken out quite easily by your high ranked SL player on allies if your having problems killing him. It might even lead to you sticking close to your SL which is an added bonus. I don't think all the high ranked players are gonna stack one team.


You'r playing this game as if it were an occupation. You've got a roadmap, and your short term and long term plans. But lets just hop in this here time machine :IS2: *insert sound effect here* *plonk*. Boom!

Surprise and welcome to the future, you now have all weapons unlocked and have the maximum honour, now answer this question.

Will you still play the game if all of your enjoyment was derived from grinding some number system?

Dont get me wrong here, I too often think "man i wanna get item x". But that thought is only crossing through my head so that I can play the game, and it often annoys have to run on a hamster wheel before I get some of the things I want which should be standard equipment...





@Grobut: Assuming you switch thouse for those :eek:;), I whole heartedly agree. Every time you write a book sized post it's always a good read, and well worth reading!
 

Unus Offa Unus Nex

FNG / Fresh Meat
Oct 21, 2010
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If the entire progression system has to go, then that means leaving all weapons at lvl 50 stats permanently. Otherwise too many weapons ingame will feature way too much recoil. The recoil of the guns at lvl 50 ingame seem realistic atleast.
 

Colt .45 killer

Grizzled Veteran
May 19, 2006
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If the entire progression system has to go, then that means leaving all weapons at lvl 50 stats permanently. Otherwise too many weapons ingame will feature way too much recoil. The recoil of the guns at lvl 50 ingame seem realistic atleast.

Cept for the bolties, even if its a bit too much. I like the nice recoil because it makes the weapon feel that much more powerfull :p.
 
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hockeywarrior

FNG / Fresh Meat
Nov 21, 2005
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Yes yes yes yes yes. And yes. Exactly right.

These reasons are fundamentally why RO2 hasn't held my attention -- it simply does not satisfy the kind of tactical, teamplay-oriented, and historically accurate, immersive gameplay that RO1 promoted. It's totally true that most of the teamwork one experiences in RO2 is simply thanks to players who want to have a teamplay-oriented experience -- not because the game actually encourages it.