No amount of bug fixing can fix the progression system.

[Beefmaker]

I agree 100% with the opening post.

But whatever I already given up my hopes that RO2 will satisfy the expectations Ive had for a true Ostfront sequel.

I just hope that a mod will come out soon to fix all the questionable design decisions.

 

[Nazarov]

I agree 100% with the opening post.

But whatever I already given up my hopes that RO2 will satisfy the expectations Ive had for a true Ostfront sequel.

I just hope that a mod will come out soon to fix all the questionable design decisions.

I still have my faith...
In that Tripwire will come out with Red Orchestra: Ostfront Deluxe (RO3) which will be a port of RO1 with additional useful functions.

 

[DAT]

@ Nazarov: I agree in RO1 you could easily tell the experienced player by his style. Kill counts alone does not equal a good player. When playing territory, kills are pointless, capping an objective is key to a win. Cooperative team play is what makes a good player not stats.

 

[Zetsumei]

I was hoping stat updates would be more in the order of giving variation to weaponry. Where you could decide to use it or not.

- Like some way of perhaps bolting faster at the loss of sway or accuracy.
- Or a flash supressor for a semi making the recoil less but the default sway more.
- Bayonet allowing you to melee but making the weapon more tip heavy.
- Stick mag for ppsh giving more stability and a quicker reload vs ammo capacity of a drum. (or jamming)
- A belt for the MG34 that removes the ability to hip shoot but gives you more ammo.


So always trading in some statistic or ability in return for something else. That way unlocks allow you to customize weapons to your play style rather than KF style just making everything loads better.

Personally I think COD's unlock system was more balanced and fun than RO2's system is at the moment. Which is kinda annoying since TWI always promised that changes would be minor and not game changing while parading against cod.

A big group of the old community cares for realism yet so far people cannot even run servers in a realistic load outs. Or balanced loadouts for all players. I wouldn't mind it so much if it could be turned off, and parts of the community could play with realism settings they prefer or gameplay settings.

Instead everybody is forced to play with the unlocks enabled, and all promising and soothing words from TWI about the features while in the end a lot was worse than people initially thought. I have no issues with TWI making the game they want to make and release, but I do have issues that the workings of the stats and achievement system was kept away from public knowledge, especially since TWI knew we were scared of its implications.

RO2 got loads of potential, and the base is really there to exceed RO1, but in the end to me it feels that it doesn't. It feels similar to how UT2k3 compared to the original UT was for me, and I just hope that TWI will come out with an UT2k4 based on user feedback.

I want to support TWI, and spread the word about a great game and I've always done that, but atm I just cannot.

 

[Sufyan]

I +1'd the OP because I feel this is a core flaw that will forever taint the game.

However, I do think some things are exagerated in this thread. 30% looks like a big figure, but 30% of what? 2 second reload speed being cut down to 1,7 seconds? Not exactly a total game breaker. 30% less weapon sway? Down from practically no sway to literally no sway? You see where I'm going with this.

Also, it is a false argument to compare one fully upgraded weapon to it's non-upgraded counterpart. A matchup like that can happen in isolated situations, and maybe then the upgraded weapon will have a decisive advantage, but you are encountering so many different kinds of situations in a single round. Pitting one machine-gunner against the other for example doesn't make a lot of sense, when will the two be facing off in a duel and in what situation will this matter in the grander scheme of things?

My issue with the progression system is not about balance. My issue with the progression system is that it is a bunch of bird poo on the hood of a beautiful car, but it is not my car so I can't clean it up and the owner doesn't care to do it. It is entirely unimportant and inconsequential to me and my life, but it frustrates the hell out of me, it frustrates me until I nearly feel like vomitting thinking of the wasted potential.

The progression system is a Hitler moustache crudely drawn on to the Mona Lisa. Why? It is not clever, it is not amusing. Are you doing this to torture me? Even if gameplay will eventually be perfect and tons of exciting content is added, this monstrosity will always be there like a wholly unpleasant co-worker that ruins the vibe and makes the room go quiet when he comes in with his boorish mannerisms and terribly mis-timed jokes.

 

[skullman86]

I agree with OP to some extent. I'm not really bothered by unlock systems, but RO2's version is detrimental to game play and balance. CoD and Battlefield's ranking/unlock systems really are better because they reward play time with new, useful items that don't totally throw off the balance of the game. Currently, most unlocks are upgrades, and for the ones that are sidegrade-ish, you now have the problem of people not wanting to have it equipped 100% of the time, which can keep people from leveling certain weapons entirely.

The only thing ranks should do (at the most) is lock players out of certain pieces of special equipment; it shouldn't affect their character's stats, otherwise you give the long time players an edge when they don't even need it.

-Unlocks need clear upsides and downsides

-Unlocks need to be customizable during role selection (highest priority IMO)

-Bayonets should be attachable/detachable on the battlefield and either be part of inventory by default or should be unlocked once and for all at a low honor level (if you really wanted to push the rank system)

-Remove all stat improvements from ranking classes and weapons, and make the "max" stats the default stats for every player, or just make the rank 0 stats the default if "max" is too godly.

-Keep the weapon unlocks for hitting certain ranks and keep the limits on heroes etc.

Anyone who says people need to stop bringing this up and that TW will fix it needs to change their attitude towards game issues. If there is a problem with a game, you need to treat it like it isn't going to get fixed or no one in development will do anything about it. This is being brought up because it is a major flaw, and it is something that TW might want to look into if they want this game to last 5+ years (I know want it to).

 

[Witzig]

I honestly still do not agree with you... I never have problems killing someone with a bolt action rifle if they have a semi, or killing someone with a ppsh when they have an MKB.

Let me ask you this in a realistic sense, doesn't it make complete and total sense that a person who is a hardened veteran or who has spent more time on the battlefield, would be for 1.) more accurate, 2.) probably faster at reloading 3.) more resistant to supression and etc...? Plus if your good, you should need 250 rounds to kill someone... i do fine with the 47 round mag for the MG-34

Well let me put it that way i'm already better then most players playing on pubs, thus i level a lot faster and get more "goodies". This gives new players even less of a chance to down me even if i act stupid.


And having the Drum for the PPSh makes a huge difference if you clear out a room with hipfiring.


Why do i hipfire ? Simple Answer: Cause i can .

 

[defektive]

Someone should make a poll about petitioning for a server option to turn off permanent stat boost progression. See if we can come close to another 95% support result.

 

[nebsif]

Unlocks simply have no place in WW2 imo, especially when the game is about 1 battle in 1 city in less than a year.

Its really like they were making a sequel to RO1 and then decided its not arcade, easy fun and what not enough and started "dumbing it down" in the last minute.. but they already limited themselves to just Stalingrad and all the effort of creating Historicool maps goes down the drain with such unlocks anyway.

TBH i'd prefer to unlock Carcanos, Enfields, American SMGs and what not instead of PPSH drums and prototype abominations like MP40/II. At least those wouldnt be brainless upgrades (w/o drawbacks) and more of playstyle/eyecandy/variety customization weps like the BF3 unlocks.. the whole prob is the game is called and set in Stalingrad.
Dont take me wrong, i'd rather be able to play on ranked servers with all the fictional crap off, but at least if you **** on historical accuracy/realism/gameplay aka what people bought the game for, do it right and keep it balanced, plix plox.

 

[hockeywarrior]

Absolutely 100% dead on. Too bad TWI isn't listening -- at least they haven't acknowledged that many of their design decisions are disliked by a big chunk of this community. Unlocks have NEVER worked in WWII games, because there's no way to implement them for most or all of the weapons without taking basic, standard issue equipment away from the player. Nothing is more frustrating than having a game take away something that should be given by default, and then make you grind to get it back. It works in modern shooters like Modern Warfare and BF3, but NOT here. It didn't work in CoD:WaW either, for the same exact reasons.

Mods are our only hope, but as you pointed out, nothing can be done until a working SDK is out. It is rather mind blowing that TWI didn't' think to provide an alternative to the unlock system. Hell, even BF2 did that on release by letting people host unranked servers that could enable unlocks for everyone.

 

[SCandChives]

I was hoping stat updates would be more in the order of giving variation to weaponry. Where you could decide to use it or not.

- Like some way of perhaps bolting faster at the loss of sway or accuracy.
- Or a flash supressor for a semi making the recoil less but the default sway more.
- Bayonet allowing you to melee but making the weapon more tip heavy.
- Stick mag for ppsh giving more stability and a quicker reload vs ammo capacity of a drum. (or jamming)
- A belt for the MG34 that removes the ability to hip shoot but gives you more ammo.


So always trading in some statistic or ability in return for something else. That way unlocks allow you to customize weapons to your play style rather than KF style just making everything loads better.

Personally I think COD's unlock system was more balanced and fun than RO2's system is at the moment. Which is kinda annoying since TWI always promised that changes would be minor and not game changing while parading against cod.

A big group of the old community cares for realism yet so far people cannot even run servers in a realistic load outs. Or balanced loadouts for all players. I wouldn't mind it so much if it could be turned off, and parts of the community could play with realism settings they prefer or gameplay settings.

Instead everybody is forced to play with the unlocks enabled, and all promising and soothing words from TWI about the features while in the end a lot was worse than people initially thought. I have no issues with TWI making the game they want to make and release, but I do have issues that the workings of the stats and achievement system was kept away from public knowledge, especially since TWI knew we were scared of its implications.

RO2 got loads of potential, and the base is really there to exceed RO1, but in the end to me it feels that it doesn't. It feels similar to how UT2k3 compared to the original UT was for me, and I just hope that TWI will come out with an UT2k4 based on user feedback.

Agreed

Absolutely 100% dead on. Too bad TWI isn't listening -- at least they haven't acknowledged that many of their design decisions are disliked by a big chunk of this community. Unlocks have NEVER worked in WWII games, because there's no way to implement them for most or all of the weapons without taking basic, standard issue equipment away from the player. Nothing is more frustrating than having a game take away something that should be given by default, and then make you grind to get it back. It works in modern shooters like Modern Warfare and BF3, but NOT here. It didn't work in CoD:WaW either, for the same exact reasons.

Mods are our only hope, but as you pointed out, nothing can be done until a working SDK is out. It is rather mind blowing that TWI didn't' think to provide an alternative to the unlock system. Hell, even BF2 did that on release by letting people host unranked servers that could enable unlocks for everyone.

I mostly agree with what you're saying but I wouldn't go as far as saying "Mods are our only hope", just because TWI -I'll be honest- has let us down in areas, doesn't mean they've abandoned the community and aren't willing to change things to improve the experience, just because they're not communicating as much as we would like, doesn't mean they aren't listening or don't care. I'm not a huge fan of the unlock system, or atleast the way it's worked out, but the game as is isn't necessarily set in stone in the shape of a big middle finger.

And just something from that Steam group page-"And why, oh why did even deny fire modes?", FYI you can change the fire modes on many weapons, it's bound to 6 be default i think.

 

[DesiQ]

They should remove unlocks, but allow soldiers to improve their weapons handling skills.

 

[Grobut]

I mostly agree with what you're saying but I wouldn't go as far as saying "Mods are our only hope", just because TWI -I'll be honest- has let us down in areas, doesn't mean they've abandoned the community and aren't willing to change things to improve the experience, just because they're not communicating as much as we would like, doesn't mean they aren't listening or don't care. I'm not a huge fan of the unlock system, or atleast the way it's worked out, but the game as is isn't necessarily set in stone in the shape of a big middle finger.

Thease are back of the box features, TWI marketed the game on them, and they are promised on the steam page or on the back of the box when you buy the game, so i don't think they even could change their minds about them now just for purely legal reasons, nor do i think they would, as much as i hate to say this... TWI obviously felt thease things were a good idea, not just good enough to put them in the game, but good enough to base the game around, and i have seen no sign of them changing stance on that.

TWI won't remove this stuff, the best we can hope for is that they will add in support to play without it on unranked servers, but they have acted with hostillity when we've asked for that in the past, so i'm not holding my breath for it.

And even with better unranked server options, there would probably still be a lot of things we would need mods for.

And just something from that Steam group page-"And why, oh why did even deny fire modes?", FYI you can change the fire modes on many weapons, it's bound to 6 be default i think.

They are talking about the PPSh-41.

 

[LOOY]

Limited Classes + Unlock System that requires class specific action = fail

The unlock system should have been:

1. Currency Based. All actions earn you generic currency (xp points?) that you can spend on whatever upgrades you like. This allows you to upgrade one class or weapon despite mainly playing the other. For example you may want to upgrade your anti tank soldier because it'll be helpful on a few select maps, but you don't have to grind him out.

2. Sidegrade Based. Every unlock is a sidegrade, a weapon with no unlocks is just as good as a weapon with all of them attached, they each have situational pros and cons though (or at least thats what TWI should aim for). For example the PPSH drum mag vs clip. The drum mag should reload slightly slower and slightly increase sway due to the extra weight but should give you the extra ammo, while the clip gives a faster reload and less sway but has more recoil (less weight = more recoil) and less ammo.

There should have been no straight up stat levelling, maybe you should have been able to pick weapon or class "perks" that modify your stats but they should have had a downside. For example you could have had a perk for the bolt action rifle that increases bolt speed but increases sway or a perk for the assault class that increases movement speed but lowers suppression resistance.

The game would be better without the current unlock system, even if that means not having one at all.

 

[Fedorov]

We warned them and they didn't listen.
They lied to us, and now they ignore us.
The game was more fun in the first patch filled with bugs where stats didn't work at all and there were no fantasy weapons.

They promised options: it would be all about options. Now its all about playing the way Ramm Jaeger wants us to play, well I'm NOT playing it, and ironically, the main reason is because of a system that is designed to make people play it!

Of course you can't make people play with some artificial OCD **** and expect to call it a good game, its not only lame, but also incredibly immoral. RO:Ostfront keeps people playing it because of the simple satisfaction that the game brings.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it, but I guess there is nobody left in the team of the guys who envisioned the first Red Orchestra.

After so many years of fanboyism, its incredibly sad to see Tripwire join the huge list of industry prostitutes.
I just wonder how they feel now... do they know deep down that they were wrong? or are they in some sort of self denial state looking at the sales volume.

I should have waited for a free weekend or something.

 

[kalle]

Totaly agree with the OP.. It feels pasted onto the game just for the sake of it, and as said it's not good for the causual players and most vets hate it, so it's a strange desicion. A good game shouldn't need it.

 

[Snuffeldjuret]

It's really frustrating when you think of how much better the game would have been without the player progression and unlock system =(.

 

[Rumo]

it's really frustrating when you think of how much better the game would have been without the player progression and unlock system =(.

qft!

 

[SCandChives]

Thease are back of the box features, TWI marketed the game on them, and they are promised on the steam page or on the back of the box when you buy the game, so i don't think they even could change their minds about them now just for purely legal reasons, nor do i think they would, as much as i hate to say this... TWI obviously felt thease things were a good idea, not just good enough to put them in the game, but good enough to base the game around, and i have seen no sign of them changing stance on that.

TWI won't remove this stuff, the best we can hope for is that they will add in support to play without it on unranked servers, but they have acted with hostillity when we've asked for that in the past, so i'm not holding my breath for it.

And even with better unranked server options, there would probably still be a lot of things we would need mods for.

Well when you put it that way I'm inclined to agree, still, I haven't seen any of this "hostility" you talked (typed?) about.

TBH I immensely enjoy the game, even with the stuff I don't like, because the stuff I do like far outweighs that. the only this I find is "missing" from the game is that tactical teamwork style gameplay, but that relies on the players not the game, take a horse to water and all that. But when you do get that ooh is it great. I don't think there's anything fundamentally "wrong" with the game, sure there's things I don't like-the progression system, or atleast the way it turned out being one-but I easily look past and forget that when I'm having fun. As with any game for me; as long as it's fun I really don't mind, maybe even don't care about any flaws or things I don't like.

 

[Richey79]

The progression system is a Hitler moustache crudely drawn on to the Mona Lisa. Why? It is not clever, it is not amusing. Are you doing this to torture me?

My feelings exactly.

MKB: Available with fire-selector switch to all at launch. Virtually no recoil.

PPSh: You won't be able to fire it without ridiculous recoil for 100 hours of play, and won't get a working fire-selector switch for 300.

WTF????

& leveling accuracy stats etc =