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New Specimen: The Berserker's (un)Natural Enemy

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Lacedaemonius

Lacedaemonius

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Feb 16, 2011
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#1
So I was reading Jester's post on how the berserk is supposedly OP, and I realized that (imho) the problem isn't the perk, but the environment in which it's trying to survive.

It seems that every class except the berserk has a natural enemy that is specifically designed to play on the class's weaknesses. Support has the Husk and highly maneuverable specimens (random crawler mobs still make me rage like nothing else), the Torch has high health specimens such as the scrake & fp, Demo has the stalkers and pretty much every specimen once it gets into melee range, for the Commandant there's anything that wont go down with a few direct HS, and so on and so forth. The closest the berserk has to either of these is the husk and siren, and he has pretty strong strategies for dealing with both of them.

Therefore I'd like to propose a new specimen that would be designed specifically to hit the berserk right in the balls. The berserk's greatest advantage is movement speed, yet there is no specimen that works effectively against it.

All I can think of right now is that this specimen X (let's call him Achilles for now) would be about as fast or faster than a perked berserk and have a strong but not fleshpound/scrake OP attack. What sets Achilles apart from the other specimens however, is that he has highly undeveloped eyes that are entirely movement dependent. He can only detect players that are moving relatively fast, and actively focuses his aggression on them. His Achilles' heel, if you will. When faced with one the berserk would be faced with a fatal ultimatum: keep moving and try to fight off Achilles, or stop and throw himself at the mercy of the horde. For this to work Achilles would naturally need to have a decent HP reserve and be unable to be stunlocked by the berserk.

Obviously the specimen needs to be fully fleshed out, but that's really all that's needed to fill his role. By adding him the berserk could be more effectively tethered and dependent on his team, while adding another level of depth to gameplay. What do you all think?

edit:
aesthetically Achilles might look like something akin to this
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=43268
just a thought.
 
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#2
So basically if you aren't moving and he wasn't targeting your last 'known' location, you're home free from this guy? But if you are the fastest moving nearby target, you become his main priority? Hmm... interesting... So basically he'll chase after Berserkers, and then likely Medics, and probably leave the Support to absolute last or something?

I could see this going very well, or horrific to balance right. Or code. But then again, the highest end stuff I ever coded was a simple Pok
 
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#5
OCAdam said:
So basically he'll chase after Berserkers, and then likely Medics, and probably leave the Support to absolute last or something?
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From what I've read, Support is actually the third fastest class. Something about weight penalty being based on percentages. (For example, a Sharpshooter with 15/15 has 100% load, but a Support at 15/24 only has ~63% load. The Support would run faster because his weight penalty percentage is lower).


As for the Brute, I consider him more of an enemy against Sharpshooters and Commandos. Sharpshooters are all about headshots, which the Brute's arm nullifies, and his raghealth makes him very dangerous for a Commando, especially when he's charging.
 
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#6
ChairmanMurder[Forge] said:
From what I've read, Support is actually the third fastest class. Something about weight penalty being based on percentages. (For example, a Sharpshooter with 15/15 has 100% load, but a Support at 15/24 only has ~63% load. The Support would run faster because his weight penalty percentage is lower).
Click to expand...

The way I'm using Support is extremely immobile though. Generally I'll let a small crowd come to me to get blown away. Also, the Support does not get a speed boost like Medic and Berserker, so while it's more likely a Support may have less weight by percentage of total carry-able weight, it's not like having a speed boost. Anyways, the main idea is that most classes except 'serker and Medic won't be chased often by this idea.
 
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#7
OCAdam said:
The way I'm using Support is extremely immobile though. Generally I'll let a small crowd come to me to get blown away. Also, the Support does not get a speed boost like Medic and Berserker, so while it's more likely a Support may have less weight by percentage of total carry-able weight, it's not like having a speed boost. Anyways, the main idea is that most classes except 'serker and Medic won't be chased often by this idea.
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It sort of is like a speed boost. For example, a 4/15 Firebug will run a faster than a 15/15 Firebug weighed down with Flamethrower and Mac-10. By association, a 20/24 Support will be a tiny (tiny tiny) bit faster than a 15/15 Firebug. It's a very slight difference, sure, but the original post got me thinking about the actual coding. If the hypothetical speed-hunter Zed tracked speed variables, it would go after Supports if there were no Medics or Berserkers present.

But also, like you mentioned, the way Support is supposed to be played, weight limit or not, is pretty stationary.
 
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#9
ChairmanMurder[Forge] said:
As for the Brute, I consider him more of an enemy against Sharpshooters and Commandos. Sharpshooters are all about headshots, which the Brute's arm nullifies, and his raghealth makes him very dangerous for a Commando, especially when he's charging.
Click to expand...

You don't strike for teh head as a Berserker? Body shotting the brute over and over with a katana is a bad idea, and because he throws the berserker less distance than the other classes, I've been thrown, run down, thrown, run down, and thrown in succession, either pinning me against a wall or against a horde of angry zeds. Oh, and the brute also has a 25% melee damage resistance if I'm not mistaken.

^The brute was specifically created to give Zerkers and Sharpies a hard time, I do believe... the Commando was just a casualty in the war :p
 
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#12
Pink_Rapefruit said:
as it was said before, the brute is a perfect "natural enemy" for the zerk as well as promoting the usage of firebugs as they slow him down considerably, which would solve the biggest problems with perk balancing nowadays (at least i think so)

i'm hoping for him to get implemented officially like the husk
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Me too, maybe then the guys like Jester will finally lose that hard on they have for trying to get the berserker nerfed -.-
 
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#13
Gridlok said:
Me too, maybe then the guys like Jester will finally lose that hard on they have for trying to get the berserker nerfed -.-
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Surely you don't seriously believe the Berserker is fine as-is?

Edit: OP: Interesting idea, but definitely needs refinement. The problem I have with it is that it punishes Berserkers for doing what they should be doing. Making the Berserker inept at fighting it would be fine, but forcing him to basically stop performing his role altogether until his team mates assist him is overdoing it.
 
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#15
2 things:

1) I think this is quite the original idea :)
2) If anyone has seen the behaviour of the Shiver specimen (it's in the mod-forums), it has a new mechanic tested on it: It doesn't spot you unless it sees you or you make some noise (Making walking and crouched movement more viable). That mechanic perhaps can be utilized as a base or something like that, for this suggestion's "movement speed" prioritizing or something? Just an idea from a guy who knows nothing about programming :p *shrugs*
 
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#16
Gridlok said:
You don't strike for teh head as a Berserker? Body shotting the brute over and over with a katana is a bad idea, and because he throws the berserker less distance than the other classes, I've been thrown, run down, thrown, run down, and thrown in succession, either pinning me against a wall or against a horde of angry zeds. Oh, and the brute also has a 25% melee damage resistance if I'm not mistaken.

^The brute was specifically created to give Zerkers and Sharpies a hard time, I do believe... the Commando was just a casualty in the war :p
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To be honest, if I'm on a Brute server as a Berserker, I don't take a swing at him at all. Maybe if he's distracted by someone else and I can get a backstab alt-fire axe headshot to him, maybe, but normally I'll let the Supports take him down.
 
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#19
Just for the benefit of some here, I'd suggest giving your criticism of the Brute here so that in the small chance that it will be added officially (since they'll do it whether a few forum members dislike it or not) you won't be stuck with something you don't like. Behavioural and stat changes are all welcome.

Regarding this thread, I like the idea of a specimen that responds to the particular way a berserker plays, ie. typically with high movement speed and melee weapons. Naturally a ranged specimen would have an advantage, since it always has a chance to get an attack in first unless the player is particularly sneaky and uses the map to their advantage. Perhaps something similar to a husk that picks targets according to how quickly or erractically they are moving, with a more instant attack (as opposed to having to charge it up). Instead of damaging the berserker, why not temporarily stun them or slow them down? In a team environment it means the berserker will have to rely on his team mates or some very clever playing when one of these appears.

Changing existing ranged specimens to focus more on berserkers might be interesting too, as well as changing the way they decide when to attack, since at the moment it's too easy to charge in and kill certain specimens (ie. the Bloat) before they have a chance to attack. If said specimens could estimate when the enemy will be within range and start the attack early to compensate, it'd add some difficulty for the berserker while adding depth at the same time.
 
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