New Specimen Models

[Junkie]

Stop those silly strawmen and stop whining about people who disagree with you.

You took two quotes from two different posts I made, one addressing you.

Are you really that ****ing daft?

I'm not whining about a disagreeing opinion. I just don't understand why you and Cromwell are taking such personal offenses to my suggestion and instantly making assumptions.

Do you work for Tripwire? No? Then why do you act like I just called your mother a whore for suggesting they make a graphical update for a two year old game?

 

[OCAdam]

You hear that sound? That's the sound of my point going well over your head.

Just to spell it out: When I said "It doesn't mean a damn thing" in reference to the face count not three sentences later, I literally meant that the face count doesn't mean a damn thing.

Right back at you. Read next bit.

Despite this fact, quite a few uninformed individuals still wish to use this perceived difference in face count as a measuring stick of quality, hence my post.

I was attempting to be at least slightly informative to those who might not realize that poly counts and such aren't exactly good quality assurance measurements. In retrospect, I should have put another of the (to everyone) bits at the start of that section of my post.

That says absolutely nothing.
You know why I'm doing this?
Because in the OP, he just states "we could use something".

I can see how they have more character but efficiency is something you should probably back up cause that kind of dabbles in the "objective technical stuff" region.

Re-quoted to assist in what I'm saying. You asked me to "back up" my idea of efficiency, so I did.

What precisely that "something" is is kind of a big deal, don't you think so?
If you have no defined goal at all and just empty phrases saying exactly nothing like this, all the "yes" votes in the poll are completely and utterly meaningless because none of the people who clicked "yes, I'd like this something" have any collective understanding of what that "something" is.
Cause without that, all this proves is that there are 18 people who don't know what they want. Aye?

Unfortunately, while it may mean nothing to you in what I said, it does mean something to me. And actually, there exist situations in which the client does not actually know exactly what they want. They just want a general idea to come to fruition. The team that is assigned, contracted, or otherwise wanted to do the job must figure how to actually get what the client wants, whether through questions asked of the client, or by a number of brainstorms to figure what is necessary, and what is just fluff.

Take this how you want, but I'm willing to go ahead and say that there are probably a few in that 18 who said yes, but don't know exactly how they would want to see this come about. Doesn't mean they're dumb, just that it isn't their responsibility to come up with the exacting details of how to get the idea to fruition. That lies with the team to figure the exacts, if they so choose to even go with this idea in the first place.

Also by stating that "efficiency" is what we want, you are saying that what we have isn't efficient.
That's just what you do. And that doesn't help because you seem unwilling to say what exactly you mean by that.
Where are the old models inefficient? They make pretty good use of the texture surface and I never noticed any stretching or anything.
I must have missed that but you just won't show me.

I am unwilling to say what exactly is inefficient because the current model are not inefficient, but rather, there exists a probability of being not AS efficient as they could potentially be. And because I'm not the person directly looking at the models and making them, or someone close to that, I can't give exacts on what is and isn't as efficient.

There is a difference between inefficiency and being not as efficient as potentially possible.

So what do we want? What are the people who clicked "yes" voting for here? "More efficiency"?
Or the new artist who put so much more character into the new models (which is related to their design more than modeling quality but oh well... let's just go with it) to try and re-imagine the old models in their style?
What sounds more concrete?

The yes votes are varied. What each individual is wanting likely varies person to person. Refer to the paragraphs a few bits back in this post.

What does that have to do with this being 2 different artists instead of 1 artist that supposedly got better?
This is not an abstract concept here, this is literally a post giving you links to the galleries of 2 different artists.
Why are you so difficult now?

Instead of insulting me, you could try to be a bit more polite. However... (read next bit)

the problem with this, is that there are different authors for the later content. Now, one could argue your point nonetheless if you were to bring up newer work and perhaps insist that he has improved enough to warrant new models. Or you could argue that the new artist is better, and you want zeds by him. But you can't argue that the original artist(s) improve via other's work. Of course, there are many players in the making of a specimen, so there will be questions of availability (some of the originals will likely have left or gone on to HoS).

In all the post reading I did, I somehow managed to completely miss the change of creators. But yeah, availability is always an issue in some way.

And then of course, you have to look at the current models in a closer light. They actually are extremely detailed, if you look at them. A fetal design, with muscles and bones seemingly popping out. It's as if you crossed a full-grown fetus, a person, and a feral animal. Not to mention scars, little electrodes, ect. Now, the animations seem to me actually to be on the same level as the newer ones, and a lot of stiffness might come from the purposeful "zombie" movement style, with its sudden, rather stiff movements, combined with a more self-suspended style which sort of looks like someone who just got off the deck of a boat after weeks at sea.

I've never noticed all this. Then again, I'm not one to give a damn about graphics. TBH, I only came in this thread with some attempt to bring some form of civility and ended up just getting into a mess.

So all in all, I see what you guys are thinking, but, when I look closely, the main difference between new and old models and animations are just the comical, flamboyant, nearly exaggerated style that comes with events, with details that "pop out" and very elaborate textures. Now, to be honest, I like that style to, but I can't see how it could really change the vanilla game for the better.

The only real change I'm fully in support of in terms of the specs are hitbox recreation to be more precise. But yeah, the pretty exaggerated style of the events is interesting enough, but shortly wears off on me.

 

[9_6]

Re-quoted to assist in what I'm saying. You asked me to "back up" my idea of efficiency, so I did.

No, I wanted you to show the inefficiency.
I know what you mean by efficiency but that's kind of a dead end right there since, well, I just don't see how to make the old models more efficient. Cause I don't see a lack of or badly utilized efficiency.
I do, however, maybe see a lack of character compared to the new enemies, to get back to that.
It's "just some nude dudes" after all.
But like I said, never seen any texture stretching or anything anywhere.

It's like saying an orange picture could be "redder" but, that's actually a bad example since that actually is more concrete.

Instead of insulting me, you could try to be a bit more polite. However... (read next bit)

Calling someone difficult is not an insult :|
Calling someone dense, idiotic, slow or daft is.
Calling someone difficult is like saying "please pay attention" or "you missed something".
The most insulting interpretation would be "you 'missed' something on purpose"

You took two quotes from two different posts I made, one addressing you.

Are you really that ****ing daft?

I'm not whining about a disagreeing opinion. I just don't understand why you and Cromwell are taking such personal offenses to my suggestion and instantly making assumptions.

Do you work for Tripwire? No? Then why do you act like I just called your mother a whore for suggesting they make a graphical update for a two year old game?

That's funny cause I remember writing exactly in detail why I am doing this.
Oh, funny, someone downvoted that post. Probably without reading it =D
Gee, I sure wonder who could be mad enough to do such a thing.

But since you disregard that, right along with everything after the first sentence of my post you quote, I'll disregard your post too.
Not much to disregard anyway in fact I actually addressed 100% of it since there's just nothing there.
It's the same retarded assumptions of people taking offense at you "insulting" tripwires work.
Wake the **** up. If there's anything here to take offense of, it's the way you "argue".
Really, I wrote you a bloody article and you just shrug it off with "I wasn't talking to you".
You also just love to get worked up over completely unrelated things, don't you mr sunshine?
Go look up what a strawman is and stop wasting everyones time.

Stop your vomit if that is all you have to contribute.
There were no insults here until you brought them to the table.
In fact I tried pretty hard to get my view across as objective as possible while you plugged your ears going "lalalala".
That's not nice.

 

[OCAdam]

No, I wanted you to show the inefficiency.
I know what you mean by efficiency but that's kind of a dead end right there since, well, I just don't see how to make the old models more efficient. Cause I don't see a lack of or badly utilized efficiency.
I do, however, maybe see a lack of character compared to the new enemies, to get back to that.
It's "just some nude dudes" after all.
But like I said, never seen any texture stretching or anything anywhere.

It's like saying an orange picture could be "redder" but, that's actually a bad example since that actually is more concrete.

Well then we had an interpretation issue there. But, like I said, I can't show a lack of efficiency since I'm not the one who created the work, or someone who has worked with it for any real length of time.

Calling someone difficult is not an insult :|
Calling someone dense, idiotic, slow or daft is.
Calling someone difficult is like saying "please pay attention" or "you missed something".
The most insulting interpretation would be "you 'missed' something on purpose"

Ah, so your variant of calling someone difficult is the "you missed something." I'm more used to people using it as an indirect insult. In this case, I apologize.

---

Anyways, would you rather see new hitboxes for original (and the events) specimens? While I don't have the patience to go making screenshots of hitbox detection stuff, I'm sure someone has already taken care of that. I'm pretty sure when I'm hitting the brain area of a Clot, or a few others as well, it's counting as a bodyshot instead of the correct headshot.

 

[9_6]

Anyways, would you rather see new hitboxes for original (and the events) specimens? While I don't have the patience to go making screenshots of hitbox detection stuff, I'm sure someone has already taken care of that. I'm pretty sure when I'm hitting the brain area of a Clot, or a few others as well, it's counting as a bodyshot instead of the correct headshot.

Well the hitboxes seem to be in constant need of work.
I guess they will improve them again in a new patch eventually, if there will be one, but that's not related to a purely cosmetic overhaul.

 

[timur]

hitboxes seem to always be a problem, event or no. I for one would welcome a hitbox upgrade, as those are always welcome and nice.

 

[Mizerykordia]

I don't tkink it's really necessary. Would be cool to see new models, but TWI has to spend some time working on it. I think it would be better, if they have spent that time on a new content like specimens or weapons. (I'm fine with the current state of the game though)

 

[9_6]

I don't tkink it's really necessary. Would be cool to see new models, but TWI has to spend some time working on it. I think it would be better, if they have spent that time on a new content like specimens or weapons. (I'm fine with the current state of the game though)

Well it's probably not that simple.
"TWI" isn't just "TWI", there's coders, animators, modelers, composers etc and they also don't just have killing floor to tend to.
I guess that their coders, animators etc are all caught up in the never ending workload that is RO2 and just some modelers/texture artists/Idontreallyknowlol have time to give kf some attention.
That's probably why we "only" get "reskins".

 

[Raziel]

Why does this disussion remind me of the KF mod where donors where supposed to be awarded with the infamous HD clot skin ?
Tell me, would you want to pay for clots with high definition wing-wangs ? xD

Seriously though, there's no point in arguing about something like this as it's very unlikely it will happen either way.
Not untill I get my RO2

 

[Akim213]

All this arguing is accomplishing what exactly?

If everyone just goes in with their opinions already decided is there really a point to fighting about it beyond for arguments sake?

Honestly this is like toddlers fighting over a toy now.



(Same goes for me I guess since I replied to this mess)

 

[9_6]

All this arguing is accomplishing what exactly?

If everyone just goes in with their opinions already decided is there really a point to fighting about it beyond for arguments sake?

Honestly this is like toddlers fighting over a toy now.

What.
All I see is someone, for whatever crazy reason there is, arguing against facts and never agreeing with anything no matter what.
By "facts", I do not mean my opinion but real, technical, objective facts like the resolution of something, whether it were 2 different persons who made something or if it was the same person who improved, how efficient the textures of the models are used, whether or not some models are blockier than other ones etc.
There's simply 0 room for opinion in that, unless it's deliberately uninformed because you can only make room for "opinion" with ignorance when it comes down to facts.

If you mean that then yes. It's incredibly childish and there's absolutely zero point in doing that.
It's just a waste of everyones time and nerve.

 

[nutterbutter]

All this arguing is accomplishing what exactly?

If everyone just goes in with their opinions already decided is there really a point to fighting about it beyond for arguments sake?

Nothing wrong with everyone having their opinions. Nothing wrong with everyone keeping their opinions unchanged.

The problem is some people here are accusing others of motivations that simply aren't true. And they refuse to stop. This raises the heat of the discussion.

From reading the board, I would say the reactions to the two limited sets of specimens were highly enthusiastic. Personally, I think they looked much better than the original specimens. After reading the boards, I'm not alone in that opinion.

Why I, and others, think that is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if people think the new models are better because they are "technically" better, more detailed, higher resolution, have more gofaster juice in them, used to seeing the old models, or "just because."

What matters is that people like the new models and asking for a paid DLC is certainly not unreasonable or insulting to TWI.

 

[9_6]

The problem is some people here are accusing others of motivations that simply aren't true. And they refuse to stop. This raises the heat of the discussion.

Surely you can see that if the new artist would, since this is supposedly explicitly stated to be "not a total redesign", remake the models close to their concepts, barely anything would change give or take some proportions?
We did establish that, technically, they are on the exact same level. At least no one made a solid point that says otherwise.
I mean you can kind of see that problem there, yes?

And please, tell me how asking someone what they want and saying that what they say they want is not only unrealistic, it can be interpreted as an insult is "accusing of motivations"?
Because you're kind of accusing me of untrue motivations here and you refuse to stop.

You're also ignoring every single thing I say while talking about me in third person while we're at things that heat the discussion.
If you don't want to talk to me, fine, but then please don't talk about me either.
Especially if you apparently don't even understand what I'm saying.

 

[Judaeus Apella]

No, I want them to work on other things that are more pressing. The models work, and nothings wrong with them really... so that's what's important. The functionality of the game is more important right now and I don't want Tripwire wasting their time doing this kind of thing until the bugs are more ironed out, the classes are fixed, and needed content is finished being added. And enough with the seasonal crap, stop wasting time tripwire!

 

[timur]

No, I want them to work on other things that are more pressing. The models work, and nothings wrong with them really... so that's what's important. The functionality of the game is more important right now and I don't want Tripwire wasting their time doing this kind of thing until the bugs are more ironed out, the classes are fixed, and needed content is finished being added. And enough with the seasonal crap, stop wasting time tripwire!

well, actually, they aren't wasting time, they are buying time. You see, they happen to be finishing their latest title, and this is the "Big Push"; the final months of development, bug fixing, and final touches before they see it off to the market. This ties up most of the employees, which basically means that you have maybe a couple guys set aside for us. However, employees in gaming, like any other industry, are specialized, so TWI can only do whatever these particular set-aside employees are capable of. According to Ramm, who is TWI President, the team was of a composition which would be best used for a seasonal event, and that the team in question could not accomplish much beyond said graphical update (unless they had their coworkers, who were of course off making HoS)

 

[nutterbutter]

No, I want them to work on other things that are more pressing. The models work, and nothings wrong with them really... so that's what's important. The functionality of the game is more important right now and I don't want Tripwire wasting their time doing this kind of thing until the bugs are more ironed out, the classes are fixed, and needed content is finished being added. And enough with the seasonal crap, stop wasting time tripwire!

I always love when someone tells a company how they can better spend their time and money.

 

[Slappy Cromwell]

I always love when someone tells a company how they can better spend their time and money.

And yet here we are in a thread full of people asking said company to up their product's visual quality to some supposedly higher standard that doesn't actually exist.

 

[Judaeus Apella]

I thought it felt like they were buying time, but I didn't know why... thanks for clearing that up. Makes sense.

 

[nutterbutter]

...asking said company...

Yup.

 

[Judaeus Apella]

The only think I think they should do is resin the siren so she looks like a dead mutated Rebecca Black.... of course she'd be singing about the days of the week and do double normal damage though.