New Specimen Models

[9_6]

I wasn't talking to you.

9_6, your comment...

Stop those silly strawmen and stop whining about people who disagree with you.
You were addressing me, I made many points, you made none and then just wuss out with the assertion of hostility while all I did was explaining my perspective.
You were asking for opinions and what you got were opinions instead of a circlejerk. The horror.

Please, if you need to reply, show me where I'm wrong. Return the favor.
If you can't and/or prefer your opinion uninformed, sentences starting with "yes, but" would have done too.
But don't be an evasive moralizer.
Especially not after so passive-aggressively telling other people to "get their eyes checked" yourself.

You might want to refrain from posting altogether in that case cause all you do is handing out ammunition.

when or not art appears to be professionally done is not necessarily subjective, whether you like it is.

What is "professional"?
If it's "done by someone who specializes in this area" then the old models can't be not professional, can they?

Or is professional just a nice word that sounds big?

 

[Lubaz]

Idk whats wrong.. better looking models are a good thing so why not?

 

[nutterbutter]

This suggestion is a pretty big insult to Tripwire's work.

I think you are taking the suggestion way too personally and I have no idea why. Asking for a graphics refresh isn't insulting TWI and it isn't out of the question. It certainly is easier and much more doable that the usual suggestions about adding a half dozen weapons, more specimens, rebuilding in the newest unreal engine, or 3 more perks.

Whether it is due to familiarity or better graphics, the newer models do look better. And if TWI is willing to repeatedly create new models and textures for a month long event, then maybe they would be willing to do it for the game proper.

I suggested a while back to TWI that they look into making a "Hi Res DLC" for $5 or so. People who pay for the DLC would see the new specimens and the people who didn't would see the regular specimens.

I think it would be relatively easy and lots of money. No balancing problems. No worries about leaving people out of the DLC. Everybody gets what they want and if they don't care about the new specimens then they don't see them. With the explosion of "freemium" games, this makes sense.

However, there are quite a few drawbacks. The first would be the usual yahoos who would scream bloody murder about not getting the new specimens. "I just bought the game and I want, I want, I want, I want" and so on. The ads would show the old art and new purchasers would immediately scream about having to pay more.

Personally, I think TWI should do it and saying that does not equate to me saying that the current specimens suck. The game is over a couple years old and asking TWI to refresh some graphics, and customers pay for that refresh, isn't insulting or demeaning.

 

[kablooie!]

but i like the specimens....

 

[Slappy Cromwell]

"Hi Res DLC"

People have no idea what this means. Tripwire does have access to super higher quality versions of the specimen models (perhaps the textures as well) as that's what they originally build and then heavily alter and optimize to create the in-game content. However, if they were to realistically put these high quality versions in-game, you wouldn't be able to see a difference and the engine would probably crumble from the added performance stress.

You see, the real problem with improving the original specimen models is that there's nothing wrong with them despite so many (unsubstantiated and wrong) claims to the contrary. Tripwire did a fine job of utilizing UE 2.5 to its maximum potential. You can't simply "add" quality to the original content. Any changes that the average player would be able to identify would make the specimens different, not better.

It certainly is easier and much more doable

Deliberately creating content mismatch between the server and client as well as between individual clients is not a simple task. To put it simply, the engine prefers things to be in sync, specimen models included.

 

[dogbadger]

What is "professional"?
If it's "done by someone who specializes in this area" then the old models can't be not professional, can they?

Or is professional just a nice word that sounds big?

well you managed to answer without querying the word when Junkie used it - phaps you should ask him

I take it as showing a degree of skill and technique that is worthy of the standards of a profession.
There is a point where this is generally accepted to be achieved, but also varying degrees by which you can exceed or fall short of this mark.

In the context of a appraisal I wouldn't call work professional just because it happens to have been created by someone who was paid to do it, which is of course a clear cut - and in this case pointless - definition.
However, if you do indeed believe this, you are not only agreeing with me but actually declaring that it isn't subjective whatsoever.
Phaps you should concentrate on having a go at one person at a time so you don't lose track of yourself...

Or is professional just a nice word that sounds big?

...particuarly if your going to come up with something as crap as this.

 

[nutterbutter]

People have no idea what this means.

Everyone playing this game understand what "Hi Res DLC" means. They may not be able to create it, but they understand it.

However, if they were to realistically put these high quality versions in-game, you wouldn't be able to see a difference and the engine would probably crumble from the added performance stress.

No one is asking for detail that cripples a system. For some reason, you seem to take everything to a ridiculous level and then argue from there as if you were speaking from reasonability. Someone "Asking for new textures" means to you "the specimens TWI created suck" "New textures" means to you "detailed enough to cripple a system."

You see, the real problem with improving the original specimen models is that there's nothing wrong with them despite so many (unsubstantiated and wrong) claims to the contrary.

Asking for an update is not the same thing as saying the game sucks. You are taking an untenable position completely absent of reality or moderation. Yes, some people are rudely stating that the game "has" to have an update. They are wrong.

However, many people that are requesting an update, including myself, are stating they are willing to pay for such an update. This puts us requesters in a whole new class above people who simply say something should be done.

You can't simply "add" quality to the original content. Any changes that the average player would be able to identify would make the specimens different, not better.

In your opinion. In your opinion, different isn't better. In many other people's opinion, different would be better. The proof is in the pudding.

Deliberately creating content mismatch between the server and client as well as between individual clients is not a simple task. To put it simply, the engine prefers things to be in sync, specimen models included.

Then don't do it in a way that creates mismatches. Simple.

 

[9_6]

I take it as showing a degree of skill and technique that is worthy of the standards of a profession.
There is a point where this is generally accepted to be achieved, but also varying degrees by which you can exceed or fall short of this mark.

Alright.
It's as "objective" as the miller test then.
So there's just no way this could ever be "not necessarily subjective" since it necessarily is.
"Professional" is just widely used as a more elaborate way do describe that you like something.
A.k.a. a nice word that sounds big.

That means, your quoted post makes no sense on top of adding nothing to the discussion.
Maybe you can identify a professional work by how technically well it is crafted e.g. no texture stretching in a model, no dents and scratches in a car, no blotches on a painting but even that is subjective as the stretching, the dent or the blotch might as well have been deliberately placed for a very specific reason.
Maybe the stretching is a clever way to maximize the use of texture surface, maybe the dents and scratches improve the aerodynamics of the car, maybe that "blotch" is actually a stylized landscape you just haven't taken note of yet.
I've seen "high art" that is nothing but a blotch.

No one is asking for detail that cripples a system. For some reason, you seem to take everything to a ridiculous level and then argue from there as if you were speaking from reasonability. Someone "Asking for new textures" means to you "the specimens TWI created suck" "New textures" means to you "detailed enough to cripple a system."
...
You are taking an untenable position completely absent of reality or moderation.

Dude, the "lower res textures" of the old models have been criticized.
He then showed the exact textures and you can see, always the same resolution.
I think that's pretty grounded in reality.

You talking about "HD" models implies higher res textures and since those always work at the power of 2, that would mean at least 2048x2048 textures which is the smallest next higher step in resolution and is 4 times the load already (okay we can have 1024x2048 or vice versa too but that is still twice the surface. You have up to 32 of those basterds on-screen after all).
That will cripple systems and we're not even talking about higher tri-counts "HD" also implies yet as subdividing the models 1 time and putting those in-game as-is would probably make your computer explode while you'll most likely not even see a lick of difference.

Be fair.

 

[timur]

I think the problem is that what "proffessional-looking" means is completely relative to that person. What can they really change if you don't say what you want? Also, since everyone has their own envisionment of what is more professional, the basic statement varies person to person. Saying for a fact that one model looks "more professional" is really just blathering, as it's pure opinion. Either someone needs to graphically create an idea of what needs changing, someone needs to describe what they want in-depth, or someone needs to identify the factor they want changing.

As for the last option, Cromwell has already outlined the fact that the models are all around the same quality if you base quality in factors such as polycount, detail, ect. So someone needs to find another way to express how they want change, or this will never go anywhere. 9_6 and Cromwell are right in that. Of course, you can mantain opinions; I'm not asking anyone to change their minds. Only to try and quit this bickering, and try and establish a way to really express your opinions and make points that go beyond vague descriptions.

I hope this helps out

 

[9_6]

So someone needs to find another way to express how they want change, or this will never go anywhere. 9_6 and Cromwell are right in that. Of course, you can mantain opinions; I'm not asking anyone to change their minds. Only to try and quit this bickering, and try and establish a way to really express your opinions and make points that go beyond vague descriptions.

Well that's not hard.
Here, let me try:

What you really want is not higher res textures, not "less blocky" models and also no "more professional" ones, you just like how the new models have more character and personality and wish for something like that to (somehow) be applied to the old models too a.k.a. for the new artist to re-imagine (redo) the old model concepts.

There would be no problem if you put it that way instead of wrapping it into easily penetrable layers of false facts and opinions sold as facts.
Fighting the "objective technicalities" fight here is a losing battle since technically and objectively measurable, all models are on a very similar level, especially the textures who are literally always on the same resolution down to the last pixel. That is a fact.

 

[Raziel]

What boxy models and low-res textures are we talking about ?
While some animations look rather stiff, I never felt like models look boxy or low-res.
As a long-term UT2004 player (and UE2.5 in general) I've to say when I first saw screenshots of KF I was pretty sure they were somewhat photoshopped as they looked far better than any UE2.5 game I saw before.

Sure, the new models are prettier than the common ones, but that's because they have a pretty cometic appereance with lots of small details, while our everyday specimen are just a bunch of nude dudes and dudesses.

 

[9_6]

What boxy models and low-res textures are we talking about ?
While some animations look rather stiff, I never felt like models look boxy or low-res.
As a long-term UT2004 player (and UE2.5 in general) I've to say when I first saw screenshots of KF I was pretty sure they were somewhat photoshopped as they looked far better than any UE2.5 game I saw before.

Sure, the new models are prettier than the common ones, but that's because they have a pretty cometic appereance with lots of small details, while our everyday specimen are just a bunch of nude dudes and dudesses.

Good to see someone with a brain through all those big red "-" clicking poopooheads who're too spineless to make a solid argument or to admit where they were wrong. Or to post at all, most likely.
Seriously, someone says the models are blocky and the textures low res and gets up-voted for that and someone else posting pictures showing exactly that this person is objectively wrong in what they're saying which is easily and comfortably seeable because the evidence is right there gets downvoted.
Kindergarten.

 

[nutterbutter]

While some animations look rather stiff, I never felt like models look boxy or low-res.

That is EXACTLY right. Just because someone is asking for an update doesn't mean they are calling the current game crap.

Sure, the new models are prettier than the common ones, but that's because they have a pretty cometic appereance with lots of small details, while our everyday specimen are just a bunch of nude dudes and dudesses.

Again, EXACTLY right.

Again, asking for a PAID update to a game isn't not the same thing as saying that the graphics in the game suck. Or that TWI is doing crappy work. I'm happy with the graphics the way they are now http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?p=647526&highlight=happy+graphics#post647526 But that doesn't mean I can't request TWI maybe replace some graphics for income.

As for people saying that the graphics can't be made more detailed because the image size can't change, that is false. Here is an example. Two 200x200 pictures. I would say the one on the right is more detailed.

TWI has shown they can build some amazing textures for free. All I, and others, are asking them to do is do the same for pay.

 

[9_6]

Again, asking for a PAID update to a game isn't not the same thing as saying that the graphics in the game suck.

Saying something needs an update in itself does not imply a shortcoming that created the need for an update?
What kind of "update" would that be if you have no shortcomings to fix?
:O

Yeah I know I'm banking on semantics here but really, who did I write that post up there for?
This is not an update, upgrade or anything along those lines. It would be a remake. 2 different things.

As for people saying that the graphics can't be made more detailed because the image size can't change, that is false. Here is an example. Two 200x200 pictures. I would say the one on the right is more detailed.

...where to begin?
Actually, no. Just no.
Please stop posting while you still can get out of this.
Don't get technical, stay with opinion...

 

[OCAdam]

You say the original models are blockier. Well, let's have a look at the poly count of Mr. Head Hitbox himself, the Husk:

Well, wouldn't you know, the original Husk has a higher face count than either the Xmas or Circus versions!

When something has a higher face count, it does not make it more or less blocky, more or less professional, or anything of the similar. All it represents is the amount of faces that must be rendered by the game engine, and thus, the user's computer when it is necessary to do so. As for having "better" models, it is likely that the others are meaning to say the more recent event models have a higher model efficiency alongside higher texture efficiency.

So the word of the day is efficiency.

If you want to make threads calling their work a putrid pile of steamy ****, that's perfectly fine with me. Just make sure you state it as an opinion, not as a fact.

Reading through everyone's posts so far, I do not see any indication that anyone is trying to imply the original work to be crap. Instead, I'm interpreting most of the posts to be considering the work to be an outdated representation of what TWI can do currently. What they are asking for is an updated representation of TWI's skills.

To make clear: outdated =/= crappy. In this case, it means that the skills that were available at that time have been improved upon.

While I like the initial idea, I think what also needs to be considered is the limitations of the engine that KF is in. (Unreal 2.5 IIRC) The way it works is to load all the game resources into memory. So the more that's required the more that is needed out of the system which could cause problems.

(to everyone) And this is why that the wording most people have been using isn't quite to what probably should be used. Refer to word of the day from earlier in the post.

You still didn't say what needs updating

Read through all the posts and I did not see any use of the word need on part of those who are wanting a specimen graphics update. I see they are wanting such an update, but not demanding one (as would be implied by the word "need").

I wasn't talking to you.

That's not gonna help you one bit with trying to bring across any points. Please, try to be more calm about your posts.

Personally, I think TWI should do it

This is probably the closest to having a "need" for an update, but I'm guessing that you are actually meaning that it would be a high probability of increased profits for TWI, thus is would make business sense to release such an update for DLC of a sort?

As for the rest of this post, I think the word you're grasping for is that word of the day.

That will cripple systems and we're not even talking about higher tri-counts "HD" also implies yet as subdividing the models 1 time and putting those in-game as-is would probably make your computer explode while you'll most likely not even see a lick of difference.

Perhaps it would cripple some computers. However, if such an update was released the way that nutter was mentioning... or was otherwise disable-able through the menu, it shouldn't affect lower end systems. As for those with higher end systems, it would probably be equivalent to just running a more recent game that uses a lot of post-processing effects.

Either way, engine limitations might impede this sort of update. So, again, more efficiency in the modeling might be the route to take.

Good to see someone with a brain through all those big red "-" clicking poopooheads who're too spineless to make a solid argument or to admit where they were wrong. Or to post at all, most likely.
Seriously, someone says the models are blocky and the textures low res and gets up-voted for that and someone else posting pictures showing exactly that this person is objectively wrong in what they're saying which is easily and comfortably seeable because the evidence is right there gets downvoted.
Kindergarten.

And really... upvoting or downvoting is not exactly something that should be worried about. Your opinion is your opinion. So is everyone else's. However, some people are likely refraining from posting in this thread because of the... current situation that is at hand within the posts.

Saying something needs an update in itself does not imply a shortcoming that created the need for an update?
What kind of "update" would that be if you have no shortcomings to fix?
:O

Again, need was not the word used. Or meant to be implied (as per my interpretation). If you are looking for some sort of shortcoming, then may I suggest that it is simply time itself? Generally, would you agree that the TWI team has gained skill over the years?

If so, would you then agree that potentially no true shortcoming is to be had because of this skill gain over the years? And as such, people are wishing for a taste of what TWI's current day skill would be if they were to remake their older models with their increase in proficiency?

 

[9_6]

I like "character" as the word of the day better.

But efficiency works too, I guess. No one has made any solid point about that so far though.
Are the old models really that inefficient? I didn't notice any texture stretching or anything but maybe it's there.
I can see how they have more character but efficiency is something you should probably back up cause that kind of dabbles in the "objective technical stuff" region.

Which is why I like "character" better, that is entirely opinion and you can't really argue with that.

If so, would you then agree that potentially no true shortcoming is to be had because of this skill gain over the years? And as such, people are wishing for a taste of what TWI's current day skill would be if they were to remake their older models with their increase in proficiency?

Please stop assuming this.

This is very likely due to the fact that the Xmas and Circus specimen models were made by this guy, while the some (all?) of the original specimen models were made by this guy. As you can see, nobody magically improved the quality of their content in two years time (which is a false assumption to begin with). Rather, different people were involved in the creation of different products.

Got no idea why the idea that twi "improved" remains so persistent.
We won't be getting anywhere if it remains that way.

I kind of tried to build a bridge there but no one seems willing to walk over it.

 

[OCAdam]

I like "character" as the word of the day better.

But efficiency works too, I guess. No one has made any solid point about that so far though.
Are the old models really that inefficient? I didn't notice any texture stretching or anything but maybe it's there.
I can see how they have more character but efficiency is something you should probably back up cause that kind of dabbles in the "objective technical stuff" region.

Which is why I like "character" better, that is entirely opinion and you can't really argue with that.

In the end, it is subjective, but most art is very subjective. To get to the objective portion of efficiency is to have something that looks just as good while using less resources. Then, once you are there, it should become easier to make it look "better" by again adding detail up to the point where you are at the same technical specs of the older version. Thus, going from objective to subjective in the realm of efficiency. Or, so in my eyes.

Got no idea why the idea that twi "improved" remains so persistent. We won't be getting anywhere if it remains that way.

So when you do something quite often, you don't get better at it? I mean... there are crescents that people reach and can have trouble getting past, but I believe that as you do something more and more often, you get better at it.

Think about it: when you first started to play the game (or just about any game), were you exactly as good as you are today? Or have you improved in some way?

 

[Slappy Cromwell]

When something has a higher face count, it does not make it more or less blocky, more or less professional, or anything of the similar. All it represents is the amount of faces that must be rendered by the game engine, and thus, the user's computer when it is necessary to do so. As for having "better" models, it is likely that the others are meaning to say the more recent event models have a higher model efficiency alongside higher texture efficiency.

You hear that sound? That's the sound of my point going well over your head.

Just to spell it out: When I said "It doesn't mean a damn thing" in reference to the face count not three sentences later, I literally meant that the face count doesn't mean a damn thing. Some of the Xmas and Circus specimen models have marginally higher face counts than the originals while some of the original specimen models have marginally higher face counts than either the Xmas or Circus versions (and some are completely on par with one another!), but in the end it's totally irrelevant to the quality of the model. Despite this fact, quite a few uninformed individuals still wish to use this perceived difference in face count as a measuring stick of quality, hence my post.

 

[9_6]

In the end, it is subjective, but most art is very subjective. To get to the objective portion of efficiency is to have something that looks just as good while using less resources. Then, once you are there, it should become easier to make it look "better" by again adding detail up to the point where you are at the same technical specs of the older version. Thus, going from objective to subjective in the realm of efficiency. Or, so in my eyes.

That says absolutely nothing.
You know why I'm doing this?
Because in the OP, he just states "we could use something".

What precisely that "something" is is kind of a big deal, don't you think so?
If you have no defined goal at all and just empty phrases saying exactly nothing like this, all the "yes" votes in the poll are completely and utterly meaningless because none of the people who clicked "yes, I'd like this something" have any collective understanding of what that "something" is.
Cause without that, all this proves is that there are 18 people who don't know what they want.

Aye?
Also by stating that "efficiency" is what we want, you are saying that what we have isn't efficient.
That's just what you do. And that doesn't help because you seem unwilling to say what exactly you mean by that.
Where are the old models inefficient? They make pretty good use of the texture surface and I never noticed any stretching or anything.
I must have missed that but you just won't show me.

So what do we want? What are the people who clicked "yes" voting for here? "More efficiency"?
Or the new artist who put so much more character into the new models (which is related to their design more than modeling quality but oh well... let's just go with it) to try and re-imagine the old models in their style?
What sounds more concrete?

So when you do something quite often, you don't get better at it? I mean... there are crescents that people reach and can have trouble getting past, but I believe that as you do something more and more often, you get better at it.

Think about it: when you first started to play the game (or just about any game), were you exactly as good as you are today? Or have you improved in some way?

What does that have to do with this being 2 different artists instead of 1 artist that supposedly got better?
This is not an abstract concept here, this is literally a post giving you links to the galleries of 2 different artists.
Why are you so difficult now?

 

[timur]

So when you do something quite often, you don't get better at it? I mean... there are crescents that people reach and can have trouble getting past, but I believe that as you do something more and more often, you get better at it.

Think about it: when you first started to play the game (or just about any game), were you exactly as good as you are today? Or have you improved in some way?

the problem with this, is that there are different authors for the later content. Now, one could argue your point nonetheless if you were to bring up newer work and perhaps insist that he has improved enough to warrant new models. Or you could argue that the new artist is better, and you want zeds by him. But you can't argue that the original artist(s) improve via other's work. Of course, there are many players in the making of a specimen, so there will be questions of availability (some of the originals will likely have left or gone on to HoS).

And then of course, you have to look at the current models in a closer light. They actually are extremely detailed, if you look at them. A fetal design, with muscles and bones seemingly popping out. It's as if you crossed a full-grown fetus, a person, and a feral animal. Not to mention scars, little electrodes, ect. Now, the animations seem to me actually to be on the same level as the newer ones, and a lot of stiffness might come from the purposeful "zombie" movement style, with its sudden, rather stiff movements, combined with a more self-suspended style which sort of looks like someone who just got off the deck of a boat after weeks at sea.

So all in all, I see what you guys are thinking, but, when I look closely, the main difference between new and old models and animations are just the comical, flambouyent, nearly exaggerated style that comes with events, with details that "pop out" and very elaborate textures. Now, to be honest, I like that style to, but I can't see how it could really change the vanilla game for the better.