New berserkers let you camp nearly anywhere

[ddashung]

I thought myself the Commando is like a default "soldier" class, able to take on most jobs in the absence of others. It makes sense too, being a weapons specialty which is quite popular and versatile, possibly the most versatile of all the weaponry. Also has a decently powerful grenade for extra oomph and help against FP!

Basically if you had 6 commandos you could have them all take the same loadout and have different jobs, and they'd all perform just fine I'd say.

You are not exactly proving me wrong about the lack of incentive to play the perk considering a specialist will be favored over it for any kind of job.

Trash clean: firebug, support, but once decently geared any can do, that's why they are called trash;
Mid/Big game removal: SS is (and I think will be in KF2) faster at killing sirens, husk, bloats and scrakes, so simply better;
FP: teamwork, enough said, demo is only the main damage dealer;
Healing: 6 mandos with heal handguns cannot beat a full-time healing medic, especially with the nades;
Blocking a choke: no one can come close to a zerker or a support at this game.

KF is a game where the players are supposed to take very different roles so they are at top capacity in all fields while their team work allow them to void each and every perk weakness.
It's a coop game.
Can the mando do ok in a pinch ?
Of course.
Is it desirable ?
No.

Sadly the jack-of-all-trade design of the commando does not enter the teamplay equation, it has been its problem for the whole of KF1 and as things are going it's gonna be its problem for the whole of KF2 too.
It lacks uniqueness, and the cheap gimmick of making it unique by being the average perk is not enough, it's too "metagame" to seduce anyone but newbies.

 

[ddashung]

Sorry for double post, but I'm not sure I could modify the last one and keep it readable.

I'm not sure that is how damage reduction works o-o. Wouldn't effective hp be your hp is now = 25% more. If you take 100 damage you would now take 125 dmg effectively with damage resistance. zeds doing 75% damage does not mean your HP is now 33% more effective. It means your hp is now 25% more effective (approx). If you take 125 damage normally you would now take 100. If you take 250 damage normally you would take 200. Ect ect. I can't see why it would not be a Linear scaling as that is way too complicated for what it needs to do. Why would tripwire put it in the game saying "you are 25% more resistant to damage" which apparently means you now take 33% more damage before you die. That is just convoluted. I would like to see a legitimate source for the alternative calculation. Preferably a confirmation from TW that it works in that way instead of a linear amount.

125 damage after a 25% damage reduction become 93.75 damage.
The levels of a zerker do not increase HPs, it decreases incoming damage.
Let's say you are a zerker with 100 hps, when a hit would deal 100 damage to you it would in fact deal 75, saving you 25, because the bonus weaken the blow by 25% of what it should be.
So you think it adds 25 hps to your 100 ?
No, because the bonus per level will also decrease the next blows by the same ratio, meaning to turn these 25 hps left to 0 the zeds will need to deal 100% of an amount of damage where 25 is 75%, as their blows will be reduced by 25% of their total, like the first.
And 25 / 0.75 = 33.3333333....
And in the end to down you the zeds will have to inflict enough blows to deal 133.33... damage to another perk.
To get 25% more hps out of its damage reduction a zerker should have a 20% damage reduction, because 1/0,8=1,25.

And if medic healing seems so powerful on a zerker it's because these hps are virtual, the amount of hps do not increase only their effectiveness, so the medic has not a harder time healing a zerk due to damage reduction.

I think commando is in an almost perfect spot with only slight tweaks to ammo needed. Not at all a popular class because it isn't very flavorful like firebug or demo or even support but definitely not terrible. Again, Commando can kill a scrake before needing to reload on a SCAR. If release berserker and Demo are anything to go by, tripwire seems to be very cautious when dealing with perks that were exceptionally strong in the last game. I would argue Sharpshooter is in that top 3 for how strong the perk was last game.

See my above post for that, even if the SS has a very low ammo count it will easily take the mando's place in all purviews.
Having ten time less ammos but oneshotting is better than having ten time more ammos and tenshotting, it's faster and easier to apply due to recoil.

 

[xmrmeow]

the only reasons berserker can do this are:

1. Medic can outheal the damage of most enemies
2. Zweihander's FORWARD MOVING ATTACK only is OP with damage and knockdown chance.
3. Large zeds have a hard time hitting people when theres a ton of small zeds infront of them (scrakes will just stand there patiently waiting for whatever is infront of it to move out of the way).

I suggest a nerf to the zweihander's forward moving slash attack and giving large zeds a move the does massive damage in a clearly indicated area infront of them, forcing players to move out of that area (Make FP's attack of this variety instant kill). Cheese strats like this are really boring. I can literally AFK behind 2 berserkers and 2 medics on hell on earth. And to people saying he's too strong after the update, newsflash, he could do this before the berserker change. That proves the medic is the reason berserkers are able to do this. Also if the berserker dies, anyone else can stand there in his place blocking zeds as long as the medics are still healing that person. I know, I've tried it on HOE with 6 people.

 

[Ryno5660]

So what would you propose the 'Mando's specialty be?

 

[weeman2412]

So what would you propose the 'Mando's specialty be?

The best specialty of all, cash farming on early waves. I personally run commando with backup pistols for all waves before scrakes show up. Cheap ammo, and easy to rake in cash.

 

[Senario]

Sorry for double post, but I'm not sure I could modify the last one and keep it readable.

125 damage after a 25% damage reduction become 93.75 damage.
The levels of a zerker do not increase HPs, it decreases incoming damage.
Let's say you are a zerker with 100 hps, when a hit would deal 100 damage to you it would in fact deal 75, saving you 25, because the bonus weaken the blow by 25% of what it should be.
So you think it adds 25 hps to your 100 ?
No, because the bonus per level will also decrease the next blows by the same ratio, meaning to turn these 25 hps left to 0 the zeds will need to deal 100% of an amount of damage where 25 is 75%, as their blows will be reduced by 25% of their total, like the first.
And 25 / 0.75 = 33.3333333....
And in the end to down you the zeds will have to inflict enough blows to deal 133.33... damage to another perk.
To get 25% more hps out of its damage reduction a zerker should have a 20% damage reduction, because 1/0,8=1,25.

And if medic healing seems so powerful on a zerker it's because these hps are virtual, the amount of hps do not increase only their effectiveness, so the medic has not a harder time healing a zerk due to damage reduction.

See my above post for that, even if the SS has a very low ammo count it will easily take the mando's place in all purviews.
Having ten time less ammos but oneshotting is better than having ten time more ammos and tenshotting, it's faster and easier to apply due to recoil.

I asked for a source and all you gave me is numbers which may or may not be actually how it works.

It really makes no sense to me that Tripwire would make it effectively 33% damage resist and not mention it on the tooltip. Tripwire doesn't generally hide basic stuff behind overly complicated walls. Why not just say "33% damage resist" instead of "25" if you have to go round about in order to figure out how much damage you can actually take?

That said I don't see a real problem because your hp still disappears on Suicidal+ since this is KF2 and not 1. The only thing keeping you alive if you take the extra hp is a good and leveled medic. Before the patch you would just have two medics constantly healing each other and they really couldn't die.

Also, you seem to have a bit of salt concerning commando. We don't even know if Sharpshooter will be as you say. It could have low damaging guns and absolutely terrible ammo. Commando does have a place and will always have a place, popularity =/= how good it is especially in this type of game. Sharpshooter won't even have dual wield pistols anymore so they can't trash clear as effectively if they have low ammo.

Sharpshooter most likely won't be crazy good at everything if Demoltions and old berserker are anything to go by. Both were missing a few things that made them useful classes in KF1. Demo is a bit more up in the air right now due to being new.

 

[ddashung]

So what would you propose the 'Mando's specialty be?

To be frank it already has a specialty, anti-stealth, but the stalker is not dangerous enough for the commando to be wishable still.
Perhaps modifying the stalker by increasing its damage and lowering its HPs, having it go full glass cannon surviving through stealth and acrobatics ?
Perhaps adding a new scrake/FP grade mob that would change from the bullet sponge antic, all stealth, speed, damage and relatively low hps ?
I don't know.

I asked for a source and all you gave me is numbers which may or may not be actually how it works.

It really makes no sense to me that Tripwire would make it effectively 33% damage resist and not mention it on the tooltip. Tripwire doesn't generally hide basic stuff behind overly complicated walls. Why not just say "33% damage resist" instead of "25" if you have to go round about in order to figure out how much damage you can actually take?

Damage Resist is not added hps.
A damage resist stat decrease damage the zeds inflict, it can be expressed as virtual added hitpoints.
And as it is, 25% less damage received means 33% more damage needed to down a zerker, because 75% is 100% minus 25% but 100% is 75% plus a third of 75%.
Can you understand that ?

Also, you seem to have a bit of salt concerning commando. We don't even know if Sharpshooter will be as you say. It could have low damaging guns and absolutely terrible ammo. Commando does have a place and will always have a place, popularity =/= how good it is especially in this type of game. Sharpshooter won't even have dual wield pistols anymore so they can't trash clear as effectively if they have low ammo.

Sharpshooter most likely won't be crazy good at everything if Demoltions and old berserker are anything to go by. Both were missing a few things that made them useful classes in KF1. Demo is a bit more up in the air right now due to being new.

SS never needed and never used dual handguns for trash cleaning, too imprecise, they used the solo MK-23 because it has innate piercing and could decap 2 zeds per bullet if lined up.
The role of the sharpie is to headshot in a game where everyone go for the head; it's gonna be hard to balance for tripwire.
Though I admit that the many ways the camera move in KF2 is going to root out the bad SS, true dat.

 

[Senario]

To be frank it already has a specialty, anti-stealth, but the stalker is not dangerous enough for the commando to be wishable still.
Perhaps modifying the stalker by increasing its damage and lowering its HPs, having it go full glass cannon surviving through stealth and acrobatics ?
Perhaps adding a new scrake/FP grade mob that would change from the bullet sponge antic, all stealth, speed, damage and relatively low hps ?
I don't know.


Damage Resist is not added hps.
A damage resist stat decrease damage the zeds inflict, it can be expressed as virtual added hitpoints.
And as it is, 25% less damage received means 33% more damage needed to down a zerker, because 75% is 100% minus 25% but 100% is 75% plus a third of 75%.
Can you understand that ?

SS never needed and never used dual handguns for trash cleaning, too imprecise, they used the solo MK-23 because it has innate piercing and could decap 2 zeds per bullet if lined up.
The role of the sharpie is to headshot in a game where everyone go for the head; it's gonna be hard to balance for tripwire.
Though I admit that the many ways the camera move in KF2 is going to root out the bad SS, true dat.

It isn't a question of whether I understand it is a question of whether that is actually how it works in game. Damage resistance is handled differently in many different games. Just because you say it works a certain way doesn't mean it actually works that way. Your condescending question is disappointing. You can keep believing commando will be out classed. I'll laugh every time I see a commando take out a scrake with the scar easy.

 

[jlgill333]

http://www.twitch.tv/livskis/v/14601899

If we won I would've quit the game. Nah not really but maybe.

Our team did something similar in Catacombs on HOE. Our backs were against the balcony and from this position you can't be flanked. We made it to the last wave and finally the Scrakes and Fleshpounds broke through. Not a very fun way to play the game in my view.

 

[nejcooo]

Well if Tripwire doesn't nerf zerk, this will be common practace.

 

[weeman2412]

Well if Tripwire doesn't nerf zerk, this will be common practace.

Yeah nerf the zerker so that outside of extremely perfect team, he will be unplayable.

 

[bison88]

Well if Tripwire doesn't nerf zerk, this will be common practace.

This is how bad changes come down the pipe. Like ya know, "Support AA12 shouldn't get a full 20 round drum from ammo boxes". So of course developers see this as, cut all ammo given in half per ammo boxe, remove 1/3rd of them, raise their spawn, and cut classes ammo by 1/3rd.

Same sort of people running around saying Han's needs "buffed" because his AK's and Gas aren't working properly (gas no longer stacks but doesn't do the damage one nade should do). Raise the characteristics on something that's broken after fixing what was broken. Does not compute to any logical language.

 

[SteelSoldier]

I think Berserker is not the sole issue here, the problem lies on a combination of factors.

The Berserker needed quality of life changes to be more reliable in harder difficulties, it's a melee class so a lot of punishment is expected, the 5% damage reduction it had before was next to worthless with a 100hp pool and the majority of the perks were straight up worthless,10% chance of light attacks inflicting double damage, God Save us All from the old Berserker.

And then

All the Berserker Perks became worthwhile, each one of them giving straight benefits and defining what kind of Berserker you are, the only issue I have with this, is that they have straight up made the Berserker effective versus both trash zed and the tougher zed enemies, I wish the perks would force you to specialize or be somewhat average versus both if you wanted to.



The thing I am unsure of, is if the problem lies with the Berserker class or if it's something related to the medic class.

The fact of the matter is, Berserker's health right now is really efficient, and the other thing is, he has the same amount of armour that other classes have, thematically it would make more sense for the Berserker to have less armour while still having a high hp Pool.

Also related to the Zweihander it's true that weapon is strong, and it's far more reliable than the Pulverizer, the poke ability makes it very easy to hit zeds in the head.

 

[BEEEEEES]

Berserker can handle any zed, kill many at once, and even face tank Hans.

BS. You can't facetank anything as zerker unless a medic is machine gunning darts into you. Go play the game without a medic and quit being ignorant.

 

[Zerethon]

BS. You can't facetank anything as zerker unless a medic is machine gunning darts into you. Go play the game without a medic and quit being ignorant.

Behind every person calling Class X OP is a medic fanning the trigger for those wonderful blue darts.

Every time i play a game - even on normal, sans a medic, most of the team gets torn through in pubs (People not realizing that sometimes running and quickhealing is a good idea)

Guys. Frag balance. Make the game -FUN- Because balance is what has a pathetic feeling demo and firebug in the game. Balance is what got ammo boxes and ammo counts nerfed to hell. Balance is what made door welding next to totally useless.

the only "Balance" you need to worry about, is the balance between fun & challenge. Not everyone will play a min-maxed team comp.

Right now, the game is a hell of a lot more dull than fun. And Berserker? 'Zerk went from a boring one-trick dullard to a fun perk. Leave it the **** Alone and bring other perks onto that kind of level.

I Never should be able to easily pick what's the best skill out of the trees just by reading them - every skill should be effective and should have very real meaning when chosen. Yet firebug and demo both have lots of objectively useless skills in their trees. (Free full ammo count -or- my grenades leave a flare behind for a few seconds, wow, tough choice there given the ammo box nerfs.)

 

[Livskis]

Hiding behind a medizerk wall for 10 rounds isn't fun.

 

[Senario]

Hiding behind a medizerk wall for 10 rounds isn't fun.

Then don't play like that? If it really is a problem it has more to do with how good medic is really. That and currently exploitable AI.

 

[Meat Popsicle]

im pretty sure just about every problem that the berserker is assumed to cause is not because of him, but because of the mind-crushingly stupid AI

how long is the berserker honestly going to last when those two fleshpounds and scrake are not simply standing there like morons, but focusing all their attacks on the berserker blocking them?

i think that once the zeds dont have the iq of a paper cup, only then can we see if berserker is actually a problem or not

 

[Livskis]

Then don't play like that? If it really is a problem it has more to do with how good medic is really. That and currently exploitable AI.

Yeah I'm not about to run off solo in an HoE game while my team idles in a corner, especially since I mostly play medic and demo, two of the most team oriented perks in the game.

But I'm not saying things should be nerfed. If you look at L4D, corner camping was just a cheesy way of beating the game and it took no effort or skill. The way they fixed that wasn't nerfing weapons or whatever, it was adding zambies like the Charger that would displace your group if you were clumped up, and the Spittter which has massive area denial. I think the same thing could work here. Maybe have Bloat vomit leave a puddle on the ground that does damage and massively corrodes armor. Maybe have Husk fireballs ignite the ground like Firebug weapons do. Maybe add knockback to certain zed attacks. Maybe an exploding Bloat could knockback. The world is Tripwire's oyster.

 

[Senario]

Yeah I'm not about to run off solo in an HoE game while my team idles in a corner, especially since I mostly play medic and demo, two of the most team oriented perks in the game.

But I'm not saying things should be nerfed. If you look at L4D, corner camping was just a cheesy way of beating the game and it took no effort or skill. The way they fixed that wasn't nerfing weapons or whatever, it was adding zambies like the Charger that would displace your group if you were clumped up, and the Spittter which has massive area denial. I think the same thing could work here. Maybe have Bloat vomit leave a puddle on the ground that does damage and massively corrodes armor. Maybe have Husk fireballs ignite the ground like Firebug weapons do. Maybe add knockback to certain zed attacks. Maybe an exploding Bloat could knockback. The world is Tripwire's oyster.

That is of course if tripwire strongly believes that there should only be one way to play, Kiting. I don't see a problem with people deciding to do camp tactics if they feel that is how they get the most out of the game. Left 4 Dead 2 is different in that there is an objective you go towards so not moving is never really an option. You can get to the safe house, it just depends on how fast you go. In versus the most effective was to move at a snail's pace

All they need to do is fix the Zed AI so it doesn't break when damage is coming from something behind a body block and it'll be fine. Also evaluate whether medic really needs that much healing because medic is crazy while player syringes are pretty trash tier.