I feel that's the wrong way to look at the economy issue. Rather than justifying free armor via expensive ammo, why not greatly cheapen the ammo, and let go of the free armor? Feels more "correct" that way, imo.
I feel Berserker (aside from his gear generally costing 100 dosh more than others) takes damage more often than the team, so he generally needs armor more than the rest. That, and you are more likely to die with the frontline nature, which is an even bigger moneyloss. But Berserker's money is a slight issue, and issue I've come to just accept, heh.
The Riot Armor thing (as I explained in the prev reply to Breadsticks) would basicly function as an extra healthbar, really. It's just excempt from money and all that, is all.
As for Unwavering, I'll requote myself:
"The reason I really don't like Unwavering is because it can heavily punish players in the wrong situation if you regen armor midgame. For example, let's say you have very little health, 50-ish heavy armor, Unwavering and Regenerative Armor. You suddenly see a raging Fleshpound and some clots. Letting the FP hit you as is, could save you from death. But killing some of those clots, increasing your armor, but lowering your Unwavering resistance and THEN taking the FP hit could mean you DIE instead. It's a niche/fringe case, yes, but it's not impossible. And I hate game mechanics that are counterintuitive like that."
My take on Always Prepared is not a specific critique to Breadsticks, but in general (an issue Tripwire themselves started). I feel stressing with talents midgame should not be an issue, something "economy-only"-talents are a huge part of. If there's even a minor passive (like recoil reduction, swapspeed etc), the talent suddenly has a non-economy bonus to it which makes it immediately valueable and less stressful in regards to the feel of needing to swap out of a currently otherwise useless talent midgame. So the point with having a non-"economical-only" bonus to all talents is not about meta or what's better, but rather about having less uselessness from talents, and not feeling stupid for forgetting to swap a talent midgame (since you're 100% missing out if you don't swap out of an economy-only talent if you don't have the dosh for it). That sort of thing.
As for disliking the armorrepair - I actually don't. I'm really keen on the idea and want it to work (hence why it spontaneously sparked my Riot Armor idea, in fact!). But the problem is that it once again gives SWAT "the earlygame economybooster" (which you currently have with free armor and dual 9mm), by giving you the ability to get 100% free armor, THEN swapping over to your preferred perk, now with free armor. That's the ONLY issue I really have with it. Sure, it's still better than what we have now, because it does give SWAT some lategame staying power on its own, but I feel it still falls a bit off the mark. Just me being nitpicky again, heh.
I don't have issues with some conditional buffs. I like the buffs on Medic, Parry, and ReU fits on Gunslinger, for example. I can suspend my disbelief for these (althought I'd lie if I said that ReU isn't stretching it). But I don't get how, in particular, my fully automatic gun shoots faster after swapping to it. Somehow, that doesn't really sit right with me. Like I said later on in the Sharpie thread, Death from Afar is growing on me, to the point of me accepting it now, after some thinking. Because while it's conditional, it's a consistent conditional (like you use momentum-based ammo or something). And, with some introspection, I've come to realize that the reason I dissed (moreso) on Fully Automatic is less of a suspension of disbelief (as he could have some kind of holster that temporarily winds up the guns mechaniclly etc), and more a biased general dislike of temporary buffs. So, I take back what I said on Fully Automatic and Speed-load. My apologies to Breadsticks with that!
In regards to my harshness: It's DEFINITELY not intended as a personal attack against Breadsticks or anything like that! I just kinda disliked most (but not all!) of his ideas mainly because of two reasons, I guess:
1) They are bit too radical, changing up too many things (including a lot of things that were working ok) - something I guess we can agreed to disagreed on obviously, hehe
2) The ideas are very "anti-my-playstyle", I'd say.
I guess I actually AM more of a flat statboosts (but not entirely) kind of guy, funnily enough. So you're not totally wrong about that, well spotted!
Thanks for straightening me up a bit, appreciate it!
I can see you also answered to Breadsticks previously, so I'll try to take both answers in consideration, but first and foremost I feel it's important that I didn't feel offended by your post in the slightest, and I also apologize if you were offended by mine! I surely didn't want to come off as harsh, that wasn't my goal at all. But I was, indeed, scratching my head as you seemed to disagree with everything on offer... I guess people never like to have their opinions torn apart, even more so when it's so diametrally opposed! Still, I guess it nevers hurts to explain ourselves a bit more if needed.
Cheapening the ammo rather than the armor? I guess it could work too, I just don't really see how it "fits the theme" of the SWAT. One could say that such special forces pack extra resources I guess... Or we could just say that sometimes, you have to forego some things for the sake of the gameplay experience. I'm personally all in favor of armor bonuses because it's basically the perk's hook, but as OP is turning the perk into a litteral bullet-hose, I guess making ammo cheaper would also work in the perk's favor. Meanwhile, you're definitely right about the zerk... I believe I seldom finish a wave with even a smidgeon of armor. So what you don't spend in ammo, you definitely spend in armor (and 300D for every wave is quite a lot... Plus as a lover of the wonderful Pulverizer, I should know that the perk may, in fact, need to reload). Plus, I did agree with your idea on the Riot Armor, so the perk would still have access to a generous bonus regarding its armor...At a price.
I... Didn't think of that regarding the Unwavering/Regen Armor combo. Yet, I personally wouldn't mind. I would probably scream a big WHAT at my screen as it happens, but I personally think the benefits far outweight the cons. But I can only submit to the fact that it is, indeed, possible. And that anybody knowing the peculiar stats (because some people are crazy about them) would go bat**** crazy at the thought of dying so stupidly. But then eh... I would almost say that "it's the deal. If you don't want it to happen, pick another skill".
Again, I get it for "Always Prepared", and this time I do agree that having even a minor extra utility out of it would improve upon it. It actually happened a few times to myself (and I guess, everyone) to simply forget to switch back skills once you're in the middle of the game, essentially, as you put it : wasting a skill slot. I guess that with merely ten skills to choose from (and five you can actually use at once), having even one skill that is tailor-made for very specific situations isn't exactly great. Either that, or all skills should be. Basically, either you make it so it's greatly encouraged to change skills often (as you would with your weapons). Or you don't do it at all. But only doing it for certain skills is just... eh. Because you're not used to do it. So you simply forget about it.
For the armor repair well... I also do like the idea on its own. And I don't really mind the extra usefulness early in the game (that's actually something I miss from KF1... While I totally understand why they did it, and while I guess that you already have the extra skills you get as you level up as "early game" bonuses => spawning with a full armor or a different gun was mad useful ! It made the game easier sure, and people did find ways to cheese the game by selling that early gun then switch to another perk for example... And yet, I still think it gave a sense of reward and set the perk even more apart than they were. But hey, now each perk got a different spawning weapon so it's obviously not needed, the bonuses could be milder). BACK TO WHAT I WAS SAYING : I don't really mind having a little something extra as long as it's not game-breaking. Obviously, spawning with a T2 is out of the question, but having a small trickle of armor ? That's okay by me, even more so since you don't SPAWN with it, it generates over time. I personally find it way better than spawning with a fresh armor. But there's no way to know for sure unless you actually have some trial and error with it. And actually, if we follow your Riot Armor idea, well... He still gets the same benefits, with another capability on top of it. So eh, I won't argue with something we actually AGREE on. Plus, it also means you'd save money, since it takes damage BEFORE the regular armor.
I can follow you on the "if it works, don't fix it" mentality. Actually, way too many games who tried too hard to be meta had the bad instinct of changing stuff all the time... Stuff that didn't need changing obviously. I would say that Blizzard is particularly guilty of that. But one can never be too wary of the snowballing effect. Changing or tweaking a single thing might screw everything up, and while I'm not saying that it's the case for Breadsticks' ideas (or yours, for that matter), one should at least think of it. Again, I would like to say that I never thought the SWAT to be a particularly weak or boring perk. Similarly to the gunslinger, I do find its arsenal a bit bland and samey, but that's pretty much it (plus there's just so much things you can do with SMGs!). I personally don't mind Breadsticks' rework mostly because it seemed to get fairly well together, but I suppose it could almost be a new perk on its own, or like a "SWAT variant" of some sort (when are they going with the HRG perks? Wait no, please don't do that)
What you say on elite reloads (and the utility of linking them to skills so as to let the non-elite reloads animations shine) sounds good. I know I can't do without my extra reload speed, besides on the commando because he already reloads fairly fast and having extra ammo is mandatory for some weapons (the SCAR and FAL, mostly... considering I always pick Hollow Point Rounds). But if it really can't be passive, I also think Elite Reloads should be available for both skill choices. And hopefully, not so late in the skill tree (level 15 max)
I actually don't mind if HAT does block 100%. I guess the SWAT wouldn't need a medic so much with it... But at the same time, that's also part of "breaking the meta". Currently, I guess it's impossible to imagine playing on harder difficulties without at least one medic (assuming you're playing with 6 players). Now I won't say that such a change will single-handedly change everything, but I personally believe we should allow for versatile team comps if possible, which is also why I rejoiced when the medic guns became crossperked... Most perks could then have at least one gun that can heal, while the medic is still the superior healer with his many passives and skills. But that's problem for another story, and I guess your idea is the simplest one.
Regarding the suspension of disbelief... Honestly, I stopped trying or caring about it in Killing Floor. At first I was dismissing the magic or zed skins as being "part of the events" and thus non-canon. But then you see maps like "Nightmare" or "The Descent". You see EDARs fighting alongside zeds. We're about to see a gun that managed to weaponize BLOOD. So honestly... I'm just thinking that Tripwire does whatever now, as long as it's "cool" I suppose. Personally I liked it more when everything was basically "science ****ed up and you're here to clean the mess". It always had a fairly B-movie tone, but it was somewhat rooted in reality. Now... You could basically have a boss that was a colleague of Kevin Clamely or some ****, and he delved into the dark arts and now he's part demon so he shoots fireballs out of his hands. Not that I would want that, NOT AT ALL actually. But eh... Wouldn't surprise me from Tripwire. So yeah, overclocking your gun to shoot faster seems reasonable in comparison.
As for the bottom-line well... We have different playstyles, and different expectations regarding them ! I do love when skills bring a little flair or capacity to your playstyle (for that reason, "Shrapnel" is one of my favourite skill, not only of the Firebug, but out of the whole game!). But I can see how some people reaaaally prefer to let the guns speak for themselves, and merely buff your effectiveness using them. That's very fair too. But yeah... IMO, that's a bit too straightforward. I much prefer passives in that regard (or the KF1 system). But again, it's just me being me and you being you.
