More Sam Hulick's RO:HOES awesomeness

[MDesigner]

I don't mind explaining how these things work, Rob. Education is never a bad thing.

First off, you keep using the word synthesis and synthesizer, and that's not appropriate here. Synthesis implies that a musical sound is being generated from algorithms and has no live element involved, and that is not the case here. Likewise, a synthesizer is a keyboard instrument that creates sounds based off algorithms. Sounds are generated, not played back from a recording. I do not own a synthesizer, I use a MIDI keyboard which just sends MIDI signals to my Mac which then plays whatever sampled sound is active at the time.

In short:
synth instrument = algorithmic, generated
sample instrument = a live instrument, recorded performing every note in the scale as well as other articulations (trills, rips, etc)
physically modeled instrument = a sample instrument combined with "synth" algorithms to hopefully make it smaller in size and be more "intelligent" - it's like a cyborg

On to the real dirt. When composers don't have access (for whatever reason) to a live orchestra, we use sample libraries. These are libraries meticulously produced by developers that can take thousands of hours to create. For a woodwind library, for example, live players are brought into a recording studio and each instrumentalist is recorded playing every single note in the scale, so that when the composer using these samples hits a key on his/her MIDI keyboard, that exact note is played. People have been doing this for years, though the quality has improved greatly since then. Not only do they record each note, but now many developers also record each *interval* possible to record the nuances in between notes. So yes, crazy as that sounds, they record a clarinet playing C4 to C#4, C4 to D4, C4 to D#4, and down the scale as well. This definitely adds to the level of realism. This is a sampled clarinet:

http://samhulick.com/misc/smp_clarinet.mp3[url]http://samhulick.com/misc/smp_clarinet.mp3[/URL]

Even expression levels (p, mf, f) are sampled and I can cross-fade smoothly between those with the modulation wheel. So the first, softer clarinet passage isn't just a lower volume, it's actually entirely different samples. You can even hear the player's breath through the clarinet in the very last note at the end. And these are intelligent samples, so you won't hear that breath every single time that note is played.

And here's a full string section (strings only):
http://samhulick.com/misc/smp_fullstrings.mp3[url]http://samhulick.com/misc/smp_fullstrings.mp3[/URL]

Bottom line: I don't think samples will ever replace live players, it's just the reality of the situation. But I think for someone to say that these samples sound like crap is a pretty big stretch! Sometimes there are quirks about them that I don't like that I try to cover up by tweaking MIDI events. They're not perfect, but I personally think they sound pretty amazing. If I didn't think so, I wouldn't be using them.

Again, this is all just purely for educational purposes. I make no apologies nor excuses and I stand by the quality of my work as well as the tools I use in my trade. The final soundtrack is what it is, folks, nobody's forcing you to listen to it. If I like it, and Tripwire loves it, and most of the gamers enjoy listening to it (either in-game or outside the game), then my job is done.

PS: Don't get your hopes up as far as the mixing/mastering process. It won't turn samples into live instruments. It'll just clean up the mix and add a little polish.

 

[MDesigner]

Please, for my edification, clarify for me (and all interested) exactly how were the instrumental notes produced if not with an electronic instrument, which is a synthesizer, sampled base waveforms or not (this is a common misconception by many that sampled means the device is not a synthesizer - blatantly incorrect, unless the samples are used purely and not manipulated in ANY way beyond D/A and D/D sample size conversions.)

Sorry Rob, but this is completely incorrect. If I told any professional musician that I was using a synthesizer to create orchestral sounds, they would likely assume I meant there were no samples involved, or they were samples with physical modeling (part synth, part samples). When we say "samples," we mean pure samples, no synthesis. Yes, if I load up a cello staccato sample and repeatedly hit the B key, the sample engine (in this case, Kontakt 4) is intelligently playing different samples on each hit so you don't get that "machine gun" effect of hearing the exact same sample over and over. There is an intelligent engine behind the samples making magical things happen, but that doesn't make them synthesized. That is, the *core instrument sound* is a live sample recording, not a synth instrument. Doing magical things to those samples (round robin, true legato) doesn't make them synthesized sounds. I'd say maybe they're "artificial instruments" at most. But we're probably splitting hairs at this point. My point is that it's silly to say these instruments don't sound real, because they *are* real. I think the aural trigger that tells someone that they're not live musicians is the tiny inconsistencies in legato note-to-note transitions, and in some cases a lack of subtle changes in dynamics that are hard to replicate with sampled instruments.

 

[HeyCarnut]

Sorry Rob, but this is completely incorrect. If I told any professional musician that I was using a synthesizer to create orchestral sounds, they would likely assume I meant there were no samples involved, or they were samples with physical modeling (part synth, part samples). When we say "samples," we mean pure samples, no synthesis. Yes, if I load up a cello staccato sample and repeatedly hit the B key, the sample engine (in this case, Kontakt 4) is intelligently playing different samples on each hit so you don't get that "machine gun" effect of hearing the exact same sample over and over. There is an intelligent engine behind the samples making magical things happen, but that doesn't make them synthesized. That is, the *core instrument sound* is a live sample recording, not a synth instrument. Doing magical things to those samples (round robin, true legato) doesn't make them synthesized sounds. I'd say maybe they're "artificial instruments" at most. But we're probably splitting hairs at this point. My point is that it's silly to say these instruments don't sound real, because they *are* real. I think the aural trigger that tells someone that they're not live musicians is the tiny inconsistencies in legato note-to-note transitions, and in some cases a lack of subtle changes in dynamics that are hard to replicate with sampled instruments.

Nothing personal, but this is why 'musician' does not make 'Electronic Engineer'. And we're NOT 'splitting hairs' here. NI's Reaktor, and then Kontack, Absytnth, and Intakt, ALL use 'granular synthesis' (you probably know it as 'Time Machine') and / or FFT synthesis (you probably know it as 'Tone Machine'). This is and has been for some time.

From your Kontakt manual: "The structure of most samplers, hardware or software, is similar to that of a synthesizer... The difference is that the sound generator of a typical synthesizer creates its source waveforms...whereas a sampler can use any kind of previously recorded audio data..."

Get it? It is a synthesizer, with samples as its base waveforms (unlike some other samplers, it doesn't even have any real wave generators intrinsic.)

An article accessible to a non-engineer might be found here.

Long duration samples (>100ms is the usual use of the terminology) are manipulated by the software. Unless you are using the pure sample, with absolutely no algorithmic tampering, it is synthesis, with a sampled waveform as its base. And then it becomes problematic when done less than ideally. (And if you are using pure samples, it then goes back to why not just record the real thing playing the piece in the first place.)

An example:

If you look at an FFT of any instrument, it changes when the instrument volume changes, even when the input to the FFT is normalized for level.

This is why we can tell the difference between a violin say played p versus ƒƒƒ, even when the levels a normalized. All of the interactions of the bow, strings, bridge, body change the spectral characteristics.

Unless you have an infinite number of samples, for each of the infinite possible volume levels, for each of the infinite possible frequencies, for each of the infinite possible player technique that alters spectral and time characteristics, or a perfect interpolation / extrapolation algorithm you cannot duplicate 'real' sound perfectly. You might fool some, you might fool many, you might even fool all. And if you don't have the mythical infinite samples / perfect algorithm, you are manipulating the waveform whether synthetically created or sampled. And that is synthesis.

Tools like Kontakt (I know it well, I've written KSP scripts (ugh - it's like Pascal)) have means to 'help' these algorithms to sound 'real' when altering the samples, but this takes a keen ear and knowledge of what and how to 'twiddle' things to get a proper sound. Without this ability, they would really be useless - like taking clips of an orchestra CD and trying to pass it off as 'real' playing. Samples, pure or not, also do not make 'real', modulo calling a CD a 'sample'.

We can argue terminology forever, or you can just ask NI what granular / FFT synthesis is. Lots of smart people and NI staff in their forums.

Technicalities aside, this started with the observation by me and others that it just sounds fake. And it does. These statements were made before anyone posted that they are in fact not real instruments. A Q.E.D. if ever there was one. It makes it even 'sillier' to say something like "it's silly to say these instruments don't sound real". I and others have done just that, before this was confirmed.

I invite you to listen to the samples I put in the prior post. Every person I played these for thought them vastly more realistic, most thinking they were 'real'. Every person I played the recording in the thread identified the strings as not 'real'. Only a dozen of so, but a telling sample.

All I'm saying (and the intent of my original post was this - not a technical debate) is I hope the 'twiddling' or product used is changed for the production pieces. The current sound does not do your composition justice.

Respectfully (really),

Rob

EDIT: Didn't see your first post. First sample sounds real enough to me, I certainly don't get the 'FAKE' feeling. If I were told it was real, I would assume any bits that sound off are player / recording and believe it.
Second one - not so easy, but the recording itself seems much worse than the former, so I've no idea.

I just played the original thread track for my GF. She did not ID it as fake immediately. When told, she said she thought some parts seemed off, but she was not sure. She's got ears like an invertebrate though. So 1 out of about 13.

Also - I've no idea what your DAW is , but have you seen Reaper? I was recently pointed to it by an audo engineering buddy, I am very impressed with it, particularly at its price/performace: http://pcgamingtips.blogspot.com/2010/12/i-hear-you-fantastic-daw-digital-audio.html

 

[MDesigner]

Ah. So, new facts have come up:

1) You know more than you originally let on.
2) You're not the average gamer, you're a *sound engineer*.

I can't help but feel like I've been baited into an argument for the sake of arguing. Of *course* a sound engineer is going to be listening with a more critical ear than the average Joe. I never said these samples are as good as a live orchestra, and I never said that nobody would ever say "this is not a real orchestra." Maybe I shot myself in the foot getting into this whole "discussion" anyway. You think the music sounds fake. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but you're in the minority, based on my experiences.

I think we're probably going to just have to agree to disagree here.

Cheers.

 

[Nezzer]

Sam is awesome. Period.

 

[KingLol]

Get it? It is a synthesizer, with samples as its base waveforms (unlike some other samplers, it doesn't even have any real wave generators intrinsic.)

I find the tone of your almost patronising post quite strange given that you seem to be unaware of the existence of multi-sampled libraries. Either way Hoak, despite your nitpicking approach, surely you would agree that labelling a sampler as a synthesiser would cause confusion among both sound engineers and musicians alike?

I wouldn't get too hung up on string sounds anyway, they're notoriously difficult to get sounding realistic, especially once you start getting to orchestral string section parts and bringing in a large string section for a studio recording is probably a financial bridge too far for a small company.

 

[LemoN]

Just comes across a bit angry

Don't mean it to be.

HeyCarnut, you really should watch the way you write a bit.
You probably don't mean to sound that way but you do come across extremely aggressive and patronising.

Remember, Sam doesn't post here because he likes discussions and neither is he is being paid to argue about his work. And looking at the way you treated him I wouldn't be surprised if he'd stop posting here altogether.

 

[KingLol]

Also forgot to add to my above post:

I liked the music, now give us some stuff for the Axis! I can just imagine myself playing HoS now: some guy is holding up the whole team in the spawn because he's stopped in a door and is trying to pick up another weapon, all the while the epic music is blaring out of the speakers cranked up to 11.
:IS2:

 

[PNV]

I'm very picky when it comes to orchestral music that has been synthesized or sampled; it drives me crazy sometimes (the recent Silent Hunter games come to mind). But the work Sam Hulick has done so far is very well done. It doesn't bother me at all.

 

[HeyCarnut]

Ah. So, new facts have come up:

1) You know more than you originally let on.
2) You're not the average gamer, you're a *sound engineer*.

Don't quite know how to respond to (1), didn't know resumes were to be presented before discussing something.
No on (2).

I can't help but feel like I've been baited into an argument for the sake of arguing. I think we're probably going to just have to agree to disagree here.

I hope not. I certainly only posted my concerns over the sound as that, concerns over the sound, not as a lesson in terminology.

It's a shame how hard it is to write sometimes with it not conveying the 'atmosphere' of friendly debate, even if spirited. I suppose reading your post about 'educating' me could have been taken negatively by me, but I just don't read those kind of things into posts like these. Unless someone outright smolders me with vituperations, I give the benefit of the doubt that their 'feeling' may not be coming through.

In any case, Sam (if I may be so bold to address you directly as such), I had no intention of 'baiting', and really was not interested all that much in debating the technology until the raise / re-raise effect crept into our interchange.

No offense intended, none taken. I really do apologize if you feel upset in any way. I really do like the compositions so far.

Regards,

Rob


Cheers.[/QUOTE]

 

[=GG= Mr Moe]

I'm not an expert on sounds, but I really like it and it sounds great to me.

HeyCarnut, even if you don't mean to be, you do sound a bit condescending. And if you really do mean it, then just come out and say it. (edit, just read the new post...)

 

[Oldih]

Technicalities aside, this started with the observation by me and others that it just sounds fake. And it does.

Now the question goes: is it a bad thing? Sure a real orchestra would enhance it but it's not broken or raped tune by any means, on the contrary it sounds pretty good despite that 'fakeness' unless you're extreme purist about stuff like this, and it is quite understandable as typical 'fake' orchestra sounds awful or greatly out of place.

 

[Zetsumei]

For me the mastering often got one of the biggest effects on fully experiencing the music and making it feel real. Not real in the sense of whether a human is playing it with all the human sublety but real in the sense where it feels as if it's actually played right now and right next to you.

I have a lot of music that consists of real instruments that while real people play it, it still doesn't feel real. As it somewhat lacks the full depth and the placement of the sound.

Yet I have some recordings including really clear electric/synthesized stuff where when I close my eyes I just feel as if I'm in the same room as the musician. Offering a more real experience to me than some real recordings.

Now my ears aren't the best, and my audio set while pretty good for a budget set-up is still a budget set-up (Quad 33, 303 combo with 2 ESL 57's). However I do think that a lot of people that found the sound feel very synthetic in here (beside a few with a more trained hearing like HeyCarnut), do so primarily due to the audio missing the mastering step.

 

[Fedorov]

It doesn't sound fake at all to me. HeyCarnut, are you sure you are not just exaggerating just to show off?

 

[HeyCarnut]

Now my ears aren't the best, and my audio set while pretty good for a budget set-up is still a budget set-up (Quad 33, 303 combo with 2 ESL 57's)

That is fantastic, classic gear. One of my setups uses soundlabs electro's (I used to have quads) - I love the 'rightness' of electrostatic transducers. I am always surprised not many others picked up on the current-dumping topology of the 303. A clever, efficient solution.

 

[KingLol]

Hoak detected! Nonsense ahoy! Abandon thread - every man for himself!!!!

 

[hockeywarrior]

Ah. So, new facts have come up:

1) You know more than you originally let on.
2) You're not the average gamer, you're a *sound engineer*.

I can't help but feel like I've been baited into an argument for the sake of arguing. Of *course* a sound engineer is going to be listening with a more critical ear than the average Joe. I never said these samples are as good as a live orchestra, and I never said that nobody would ever say "this is not a real orchestra." Maybe I shot myself in the foot getting into this whole "discussion" anyway. You think the music sounds fake. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but you're in the minority, based on my experiences.

I think we're probably going to just have to agree to disagree here.

Cheers.

I have to agree with you here -- Carnut should have said upfront that he was a sound engineer. That's a pretty significant detail to leave out of a thread that is discussing synthesized vs non synthesized music, and whether intended or not, definitely sounds you were baited into an argument! Might want to look more into your writing style, Carnut.

Oh and ...

And then it becomes problematic when done less than ideally. (And if you are using pure samples, it then goes back to why not just record the real thing playing the piece in the first place.)

... the monetary and time-based resources needed for using samples is a far cry from hiring an orchestra to record your soundtrack. Being a musician myself, I know how incredibly expensive it is to hire professional musicians, pay for their travel, and rent out a studio space for an extended amount of time to rehearse and record the music. It's certainly far from cheap, and I really doubt TWI has the budget for that kind of thing. Hell, increasingly alot of wealthy AAA developers (sadly) don't choose to poor money into this aspect of their games.

 

[Bashenka]

Also forgot to add to my above post:

I liked the music, now give us some stuff for the Axis! I can just imagine myself playing HoS now: some guy is holding up the whole team in the spawn because he's stopped in a door and is trying to pick up another weapon, all the while the epic music is blaring out of the speakers cranked up to 11.
:IS2:

LOL

This made me burst out laughing in the Helsinki terminal while waiting for my flight. Startled quite a few Finns.

 

[LemoN]

Startled quite a few Finns.

Of course, laughing is something completely alien to Finns.

 

[Bashenka]

Of course, laughing is something completely alien to Finns.

Just heard one of them chuckling on the phone. Near about startled myself!