More intuitive and quick keyboard interfance needed

[Helmut_AUT]

This is something that has bothered me when I first installed the 3.3 mod a few days ago (yes, I'm a pretty new player, but not new to tactical FPS in general).

The keyboard inputs for RO are just way too much. Normally I like to play with the cursor keys (not WASD, not the numeric keys, just the regular arrow cursors) and map the other function keys around my left hand's position on the arrows. This has worked fine with OP Flashpoint, Ghost Recon, Battlefield1942 and pretty much every other tactical shooter I've ever played.

But RO has such a ton of commands that it's really hard to sort out.

Yet, many of the keys can/should be context sensitive in my opinion. I'll try to give some examples with real-life comparisons:

1) When your weapon runs out of bullets, why can't the primary fire button not automatically "switch" to melee attacks? Have it go "click" once to indicate out of ammo, and then any subsequent press of the primary fire should activate a buttstrike/bajonet attack.

In real life, if you run out of ammo in the middle of a Close-Quarter Fight, you have two options - you reload, or you push forward and try to smack your opponent down. You won't need to think "I have to change from ranged attack to melee attack".

I would argue that the same could be done when you're within a minimum range of an enemy soldier. If you bump into an enemy when going round a corner, instead of trying to hit with a bolt action rifle, you would just naturally stab/beat him.

2) I understand and agree with "only one weapon for each player" so when we pick up a new rifle or SMG, we should get rid of the old one. But why does it have to be an extra keypress? I would argue that picking up a new rifle should automatically discard the old one. Again, in real life you wouldn't have to think about it, so why does the game make it so complicated?

3) Giving Ammo to MG-Gunners: If I'm close to a MG Gunner, I can see his ammo loadout. Then I can press an extra key to give him ammo. Why can't that extra key be the USE key, which would automatically "know" that I'm close to the gunner? Instead we have to map yet another key for it.

4) Setting up MGs/preparing for Hipshooting MGs: I noticed that on MGs that can hipshoot, the Iron sights button will prepare it for hipshooting. You need a separate button to deploy it. Again, this should be context-sensitive - if the "deploy" icon is visible (like, you're standing behind a window), Ironsights button should always deploy the gun. As it's right now (if I'm not mistaken) ironsights will ready for hipshooting even if you're in a position to deploy.

5) Barrel Change: Yet another unnecessary button. I agree that barrel changing shouldn't happen automatically when overheating. But why can't the USE key be used to change barrels? In a situation where you have the MG deployed, you're stationary and not moving around, the USE key is not going to be used for anything else.

I guess that many things I listed here are problems that have to do with not being able to edit engine functions in the mod itself. It remains to be hoped that with the full engine license, the team can implement context-sensitive and "logical" keyboard shortcuts to most of the functions. Games like SWAT4 are a good example - it's basically the same engine, but you have a ton of functions packed in only a few keys.

 

[radix]

Except point 1 the ideeas are not bad.

For the point 1, I still want to be able to choose how I attack my opponent (shoot or stab) so the the setup how is now i find it good.

 

[[-project.rattus-]]

1) When your weapon runs out of bullets, why can't the primary fire button not automatically "switch" to melee attacks? Have it go "click" once to indicate out of ammo, and then any subsequent press of the primary fire should activate a buttstrike/bajonet attack.

Agree with Radix. Just imagine you have an automatic weapon and run across 2 enemies. The first one is in melee distance, the second one not. There is a chance you kill both with one burst, so you definately don't want to hit the guy with your gun. This might even kill you.
And if you only impleemnt thisfor bolties, it would even be more confusing, because you'd have some weapons with an extra melee key, and some without.

In real life, if you run out of ammo in the middle of a Close-Quarter Fight, you have two options - you reload, or you push forward and try to smack your opponent down. You won't need to think "I have to change from ranged attack to melee attack".

You don't "switch". You just perform a different actions, just like stabbing would be a different action than pulling the trigger.

2) I understand and agree with "only one weapon for each player" so when we pick up a new rifle or SMG, we should get rid of the old one. But why does it have to be an extra keypress? I would argue that picking up a new rifle should automatically discard the old one. Again, in real life you wouldn't have to think about it, so why does the game make it so complicated?

Not too fond of that idea, at leats if grabbing weapons is still done by running over it and tapping use. Because then, if someone died in a doorway, you might end up with the wrong gun without ammo instead of opening the door.

3) Giving Ammo to MG-Gunners: If I'm close to a MG Gunner, I can see his ammo loadout. Then I can press an extra key to give him ammo. Why can't that extra key be the USE key, which would automatically "know" that I'm close to the gunner? Instead we have to map yet another key for it.

Agree. Unless the "single key grab" from above is implemented... imagine you give the gunner ammo, but he dies that very second. You might end up with a MG without ammo in a situation where you most certainly want to get in cover and shoot back asap.

4) Setting up MGs/preparing for Hipshooting MGs: I noticed that on MGs that can hipshoot, the Iron sights button will prepare it for hipshooting. You need a separate button to deploy it. Again, this should be context-sensitive - if the "deploy" icon is visible (like, you're standing behind a window), Ironsights button should always deploy the gun. As it's right now (if I'm not mistaken) ironsights will ready for hipshooting even if you're in a position to deploy.

As a passionate MGer, I strongly disagree. Deploying takes much longer than hipping it. So if you run across an enemy and end up being in a deployable spot, you can't just quickly spray him. This "feature" would cause my death quite often.

5) Barrel Change: Yet another unnecessary button. I agree that barrel changing shouldn't happen automatically when overheating. But why can't the USE key be used to change barrels? In a situation where you have the MG deployed, you're stationary and not moving around, the USE key is not going to be used for anything else.

Totally agree, though I never ever had to change the barrell unless I deliberately tried to overheat it...

 

[Helmut_AUT]

Except point 1 the ideeas are not bad.

For the point 1, I still want to be able to choose how I attack my opponent (shoot or stab) so the the setup how is now i find it good.

What bothers me is that I have right mouse=ironsights, and I can't place the ALT Fire key somewhere convenient. So I end up taking too long to use melee attack.

The point about being able to spray multiple enemys with a quick shot from the hip is very valid, though.

How have you guys set this up?

Rattus has made a few very good counter-points. It seems to me that different classes need different key layouts alltogheter.

Of course, the most lovely thing would be a context-sensitive on-screen menu ala OFP.

 

[Rak]

You won't need to think "I have to change from ranged attack to melee attack".

Disagree.Stop being lazy

2) I understand and agree with "only one weapon for each player" so when we pick up a new rifle or SMG, we should get rid of the old one. But why does it have to be an extra keypress? I would argue that picking up a new rifle should automatically discard the old one. Again, in real life you wouldn't have to think about it, so why does the game make it so complicated?

Well your idea looks reasonable,but that key has GREAT some use if you think creative.

As an MG'er;there are some situations where you see riflemen coming for a stab run while you're reloading or changing barrel,someone coming from behind and you hear him,a grenade lands near you.

In all of these situations you have absolutely no time to undeploy and run.But hey!It's when that key makes some quick use.You can just throw your weapon with one tap and run away.

Well,it just isn't for just MG'ers but other classes make use of this.A lot of people complain about manual bolting,because they get stabbed meanwhile in close combat.Just throw your weapon and run away to a safe place.Same is for while reloading in Auto classes.

4) Setting up MGs/preparing for Hipshooting MGs: I noticed that on MGs that can hipshoot, the Iron sights button will prepare it for hipshooting. You need a separate button to deploy it. Again, this should be context-sensitive - if the "deploy" icon is visible (like, you're standing behind a window), Ironsights button should always deploy the gun. As it's right now (if I'm not mistaken) ironsights will ready for hipshooting even if you're in a position to deploy.

I disagree.This limits MG'ers flexibility.What would if you want to hipshoot when the deploy icon is visible?Deploy your weapon?FFS

5) Barrel Change: Yet another unnecessary button. I agree that barrel changing shouldn't happen automatically when overheating. But why can't the USE key be used to change barrels? In a situation where you have the MG deployed, you're stationary and not moving around, the USE key is not going to be used for anything else.

Yes it is.You can use "use" key when you're deployed on a windows or near a door.Where you need to close it while reloading,or changing barrel.Limits flexibility again,I completely disagree.

You're gonna see that every keypress has a reason when you "get into" the game

Totally agree, though I never ever had to change the barrell unless I deliberately tried to overheat it...

Maybe you just can't find the right deploy places?Or trying to be an MG sniper?Well we're here to give some suspressive fire

 

[radix]

What bothers me is that I have right mouse=ironsights, and I can't place the ALT Fire key somewhere convenient. So I end up taking too long to use melee attack.

The point about being able to spray multiple enemys with a quick shot from the hip is very valid, though.

How have you guys set this up?

Rattus has made a few very good counter-points. It seems to me that different classes need different key layouts alltogheter.

Of course, the most lovely thing would be a context-sensitive on-screen menu ala OFP.

I use middle mouse (aka clicky mouse roller) for IS, lef clk shoot, right clk melee. As I play mostly with rifle, left finger is sitting usually on the roller and the middle finger on the melee.

 

[[-project.rattus-]]

Yes it is.You can use "use" key when you're deployed on a windows or near a door.Where you need to close it while reloading,or changing barrel.Limits flexibility again,I completely disagree.

You shouldn't be able to close a door / shutter when you have the gun deployed there anyways...

Maybe you just can't find the right deploy places?Or trying to be an MG sniper?Well we're here to give some suspressive fire

Let's put it like this: I need 1 to 3 bullets to suppress one permanently Also the longer the burst, the less likely you hit, thus the easier it is for your target to pup up and shoot you. Also, long bursts tend to attract enemies from right outside your turning angle...

and @ Helmut: I use the WASD config:
Q = secondary fire
E = use
F = deploy
C = Primary fire (for super accurate MG single fire tapping and sniping, as you move your mouse with every click, but not your keyboard)
Y(Z for english keyboards ) = prone
CTRL = crouch
Space = jump

All I need within the reach.

 

[Rak]

You shouldn't be able to close a door / shutter when you have the gun deployed there anyways...

I'm not saying always doors,but mostly with windows logically.

Let's put it like this: I need 1 to 3 bullets to suppress one permanently Also the longer the burst, the less likely you hit, thus the easier it is for your target to pup up and shoot you.

I'm not saying keeping your hand on the trigger all the time Changes from map to map,if you're in the right "busy" position overheating is more than possible

Also, long bursts tend to attratc enemies from right outside your turning angle...

That's what I want,attraction

 

[Helmut_AUT]

Remember guys, it's not about restricting options, it's about a more intuitive design.

There have been a few good counterpoints made against removing/remapping certain functions, but even so there got to be a better way. SWAT4 has you control two teams in very complicated tactics with less keys than this game.

 

[THG repo]

MMmmm i use shift for crouch otherwise i get nasty fingers.
Anyway SWAT4 is a retail game with alot of cool stuff.
But remember RO:OF will soon be retail and considering all the time it has had im sure it will be alot more polished and you will be in the swat4 forums telling them to add features from RO:OF into the swat4 expansion which i cant wait for.

To be honest alot of us dont realsize that RO:OF is going retail so we dont need to worry about alot of this stuff.

I dont think about RO:OF being realeased otherwise i get all spaz.

 

[The_Countess]

a lot of the things mentioned here to change seem unessasary to me.
i mean, how often do you really throw your weapon away or change a barrel, or give a MG-er ammo.
and how often do you do that in the heat of a battle fully exposed where time is critial.
i'd say rarely. so all those keys can be put somewhere that isnt within reach of the arrow keys but require you to lift your hand of them.
to me that seems fine.
i use a split keyboard and every key on the left side of my keyboard is in use (including a few speach bindes) but all the things mentioned above are on the other side. works fine for me.

 

[ShadowbaneX]

What bothers me is that I have right mouse=ironsights, and I can't place the ALT Fire key somewhere convenient. So I end up taking too long to use melee attack.

The point about being able to spray multiple enemys with a quick shot from the hip is very valid, though.

How have you guys set this up?

Rattus has made a few very good counter-points. It seems to me that different classes need different key layouts alltogheter.

Of course, the most lovely thing would be a context-sensitive on-screen menu ala OFP.

Well another possible solution to your problem Helmut, would be to get a mouse with several buttons. I've got a microsoft 5-button optical (costs about $20) and it makes things alot easier. That said, I'm also left handed and started with a two-button mouse in DoD 3.1b as an mg, and I've found it nearly impossible to break myself of my original set-up, which featured mouse 2 as prone and kp-enter as attack 2.

My controls are as follows:
mouse 1 = attack 1
kp enter = attack 2
mouse 2 = prone
mouse 3 = use
mouse 4 = iron sights
mouse 5 = weapon fire select (I thought it did more when I first started RO and if we're lucky it will soon operate manual bolting!)
mouse wheel = weapon select (again left handed so I need to rely on this since I don't have the number keys to use)
kp 2, 4, 6, 8 = directional movement
kp 0 = duck
kp 1 = sprint
kp 7 = jump
kp del = mount bayonet
kp + = reload
kp 5 = active voice comm

kp 3 & 9 are dedicated to swimming, but there's no swimming in RO...I should probably try to rebind them.

Anyway about the use key. It would be an interesting idea to just throw away your old weapon when you go to grab a new one, but if you think about the game as it is now, this might cause a problem: what if you're trying to grab one item out of a pile of stuff? You go to grab a pistol or a mag or a grenade and all of a sudden you have an empty bolt action rifle? There are some advantages to the way it's done now.

 

[SgtH3nry3]

This is something that has bothered me when I first installed the 3.3 mod a few days ago (yes, I'm a pretty new player, but not new to tactical FPS in general).

The keyboard inputs for RO are just way too much. Normally I like to play with the cursor keys (not WASD, not the numeric keys, just the regular arrow cursors) and map the other function keys around my left hand's position on the arrows. This has worked fine with OP Flashpoint, Ghost Recon, Battlefield1942 and pretty much every other tactical shooter I've ever played.

But RO has such a ton of commands that it's really hard to sort out.

Yet, many of the keys can/should be context sensitive in my opinion. I'll try to give some examples with real-life comparisons:

1) When your weapon runs out of bullets, why can't the primary fire button not automatically "switch" to melee attacks? Have it go "click" once to indicate out of ammo, and then any subsequent press of the primary fire should activate a buttstrike/bajonet attack.

Nah, I'd rather have a seperate melee button like Alt, to whack someone.
Afterwards, I could quickly reload (Cheers for interruptable actions)

In real life, if you run out of ammo in the middle of a Close-Quarter Fight, you have two options - you reload, or you push forward and try to smack your opponent down. You won't need to think "I have to change from ranged attack to melee attack".

Nope, that's what The Trenches has done wrong.
In TT you first have to select the Bayonet as a weapon... Dunno why though.
I'd rather have a seperate key to whack someone.

Like Alt, COD has done it great. Somehow I always pressed Alt quicker than I pressed the fire button while my finger was already on the mousebutton!

I always call it a speed key

I would argue that the same could be done when you're within a minimum range of an enemy soldier. If you bump into an enemy when going round a corner, instead of trying to hit with a bolt action rifle, you would just naturally stab/beat him.

Nah, the player should do it himself, when the game does everything automatically it's nothing interesting anymore.

2) I understand and agree with "only one weapon for each player" so when we pick up a new rifle or SMG, we should get rid of the old one. But why does it have to be an extra keypress? I would argue that picking up a new rifle should automatically discard the old one. Again, in real life you wouldn't have to think about it, so why does the game make it so complicated?

Nah, I'd do like 2 sidearms max, 2 primary weapons max.

If it could be done like in Flashpoint in which you'd first have to get the sling from your shoulder (taking time) it shouldn't be a problem.

I always hate the speeds in which the selected weapons just appears quicker then your brains can follow.
It's so damn unrealistically it looks so damned stupid...

3) Giving Ammo to MG-Gunners: If I'm close to a MG Gunner, I can see his ammo loadout. Then I can press an extra key to give him ammo. Why can't that extra key be the USE key, which would automatically "know" that I'm close to the gunner? Instead we have to map yet another key for it.

Sounds reasonable to me. But I thought HMG'ers always had a second man to carry the ammo and to actually guide it in to the gun.

4) Setting up MGs/preparing for Hipshooting MGs: I noticed that on MGs that can hipshoot, the Iron sights button will prepare it for hipshooting. You need a separate button to deploy it. Again, this should be context-sensitive - if the "deploy" icon is visible (like, you're standing behind a window), Ironsights button should always deploy the gun. As it's right now (if I'm not mistaken) ironsights will ready for hipshooting even if you're in a position to deploy.

Why? If you can hipshoot a MG-34, why should it deploy with ironsights?
I should also be able to fire it from the hip, of course making it near impossible...

5) Barrel Change: Yet another unnecessary button. I agree that barrel changing shouldn't happen automatically when overheating. But why can't the USE key be used to change barrels? In a situation where you have the MG deployed, you're stationary and not moving around, the USE key is not going to be used for anything else.

Yeah I agree.

I guess that many things I listed here are problems that have to do with not being able to edit engine functions in the mod itself. It remains to be hoped that with the full engine license, the team can implement context-sensitive and "logical" keyboard shortcuts to most of the functions. Games like SWAT4 are a good example - it's basically the same engine, but you have a ton of functions packed in only a few keys.

Yeah, simpleness is using a good combination of just a few keys which have multiple functions.

Furthermore, if you want to make the game attractive to the non-RO players...
You'd have to keep the game's controls the same as with other popular games like COD or Q3.
Something like:

Left-Mouse Button: Fire
Middle-Mouse Button: Select Rate of Fire (Alternatively Manual-bolting)
Right-Mouse Button: Iron-sights
Middle-Mouse scroll down/up: Select Previous/Next weapon
W: Forward
S: Backwards
A: Strafe Left
D: Strafe Right
Q: Lean Left
E: Lean Right
Z: Prone
C/Ctrl: Crouch
Left Alt: Melee
R: Reload
F/Enter: Use
Space: Leaping (No more jumping please :D)
X: Climbing (If climbing will make it, at least I hope so :P)
G: Throw grenade (If a seperate key for nading would make it)
B: Binoculars (If a seperate key for selecting binoc's would make it)

Sounds good to me, and it isn't as sophisticated as RO's current system is.
Of course you can customize it. But making this standard could help the poor people who are used to COD and can't even find the Configurating menu...

 

[Quietus]

The keyboard inputs for RO are just way too much.

I wouldn't say way too much, sure there are alot of functions but not totally unmanageable. Maybe when Ostfront comes out some of the controls will be more streamlined.

How have you guys set this up?

Here's what I use (not including buttons that are only periodically used):
sprint = Shift
reload = R
iron sights = Right Mouse
prone = C
bayonet attach/mg deploy = Q
change mg barrel = B
show objectives = E
use = F
switch fire mode = X
mg ammo re-supply = M
foward = W
backward = S
left = A
right = D
jump = Space
crouch = Ctrl
fire = Left Mouse
alt-fire = Middle Mouse & Z (like it better for MG34)
throw weapon = G
next weapon = Mousewheel up
previous weapon = Mousewheel down
say = Enter
teamsay = T
scoreboard toggle = Tab
vehicle say = V