Pretty sure 300-500 people is plenty enough for a decent 'test group' - if that's what you want to call it.
MKb 42(H) versus BAR
- Thread starter Jinnobi
- Start date
Pretty sure 300-500 people is plenty enough for a decent 'test group' - if that's what you want to call it.
According to the list, most .308 soft points achieve ~95%
The .308 loads are match loads from different manufacturers, so we don't know wether they were FMJs, but considering the "through and through" comments I'd assume there was an FMJ in between there. The percentages here are 98%, not 95%.
The 7.92 Kurz FMJBT produces a noticably larger temporary cavity than the .30 Carbine RN FMJ, so I'd definitely expect it to achieve a percentage of at least 90%.
We don't really know, the word Match is used, which would include HPBT's & FMJBT's. The percentage again was 98%.
Ya'll need to stop focusing on real life statistics and "real life damage models". Think in terms of game balance fffs.(For Freak Frankies Sake)
None are FMJ:
http://www.winchester.com/Products/rifle-ammunition/Advanced/Match/Pages/S308M.aspx
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=150
http://www.hornady.com/store/308-Win-168-gr-BTHP-Match/
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/13...-grain-match-hollow-point-boat-tail-box-of-20
For the other 3 rounds not listed:
-The IMI round broke into 2 pieces
-The Federal round with 95% stop ratio expanded to 0.58"
-The Military load is built with the 168gr Sierra Match King (HPBT) :
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/2200/308-dia-168-gr-HPBT-MatchKing
Edit: also interesting to note the .223 FMJs at 55gr, which fragment heavily, also achieved 83% - 91%... these rounds produce similar energy to the 7.92 Kurz and will break apart instead of just yawing.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound Profiles/M193.jpg
Last edited:
FWIW, many expanding/hunting rounds in the .308 winchester will exit on humans. In fact it'd probably be stranger if they didn't exit, as it would mean very poor penetration in that situation. Unless you're using a 'varmint' bullet chances are you will have an exit wound with .308
Either way a 98% first stop ratio is what is mentioned, which is what to be expected, FMJBT or HPBT.
Take a look at the SS109's statistic, that's the NATO std. 5.56 FMJBT ball round and the one you should be looking at = It is based on no less than 283 shootings and achieves a whopping 96%.
Hence why I say that a +90% one shot stop percentage should be expected from the 7.92 Kurz.
Last edited:
I made you some pictures to illustrate a comparison:
1st image - torso of 11" depth (28cm) with wound channels of 5.56x45mm M855 and 7.92x33mm FMJ.
2nd image - how I sketched the 7.92x33mm FMJ.
Edit: 3rd image - .30 Carbine FMJ vs. 7.92x33mm FMJ.
Attachments
Last edited:
Again, you're using the results obtained with a commercial lead cored bullet from PRVI partizan instead of the wartime steel cored 7.92 Kurz bullet, plus it's against two different types of ballistics gelatine, making the comparison completely pointless. (PS: On your sketch 7.92's initial woundchannel should be bigger than that of the 5.56 as well
)Use this for your illustration instead:
Last edited:
A direct comparison:
There can be no doubt that the 7.92 Kurz is quite abit more devastating than the .30 Carbine.
There can be no doubt that the 7.92 Kurz is quite abit more devastating than the .30 Carbine.
Last edited:
Again, you're using the results obtained with a commercial lead cored bullet from PRVI partizan instead of the wartime steel cored 7.92 Kurz bullet, plus it's against two different types of ballistics gelatine, making the comparison completely pointless. (PS: On your sketch 7.92's initial woundchannel should be bigger than that of the 5.56 as well
Use this for your illustration instead:
We don't know what kind of round that is. It simply says 123gr FMJ, and the other two rounds are not WW2 loads either. The German 9mm round was 124gr and the 7.92x57 was 197gr; additionally, 123gr is wrong as the original round weighed 125gr and travelled at ~2250fps from the StG44.
Last edited:
.30 Carbine 110 gr FMJ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2tkgIdX6ak
7.62x39 124 gr FMJ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weBVufFXJbU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2tkgIdX6ak
7.62x39 124 gr FMJ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weBVufFXJbU
Incorrect. The Germans used both 115 gr (Patr.08 mE) & 124 gr (Patr.08) 9mm rounds during the war, the 115 gr round being the most common type. I sell both types.
The 7.92 Kurz Part.43 m.E. weighes between 123-125 gr, depending on where it was measured and what batch it is of, thus I don't see any discrepancy there. The MV was 685 m/s through a 419mm barrel, and around 715 m/s through a 500mm barrel.
As for the 177 gr 7.92x57 round, it is either a commcercial round or a wartime 178 gr S.m.E. round fired through a short ~500mm barrel as it will normally go at around 790-800 m/s (~2600 fps) through a 600mm barrel, and not 760 m/s (2500 fps).
Finally these were fired through similar type ballistics gel as the .30 Carbine, thus it is the best comparison available atm.
Last edited:
In the end we are just going to have to agree to disagree about what 7.92x33mm S.m.E. will do in human tissue.
Which one was more common during 1942? You listed (a long time ago) only the 124gr, which is the basis for our damage, ballistics, recoil and accuracy model in IOM.
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=1228680&postcount=5
If it is the 115gr, what is the BC of that?
How common are 500mm barrels for an StG44?
Which one was more common during 1942? You listed (a long time ago) only the 124gr, which is the basis for our damage, ballistics, recoil and accuracy model in IOM.
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showpost.php?p=1228680&postcount=5
If it is the 115gr, what is the BC of that?
How common are 500mm barrels for an StG44?
Last edited:
Well my take is that it will closely mimic the 7.62x39mm M67 round, its length & CoG being similar to this round.
The picture you posted of a commercial round fired through a different type ballistics gel cannot be used for comparison with the others, not just because the gel type is different (although that is the crucial reason), but also since neither the temporary nor the permanent cavities are properly visible - to me for example the temporary cavity looks larger than on your outlined sketch.
124 gr bullets were most commonly used for pistols, whilst the 115 gr steel cored bullets were used for SMGs. The MV of the 115 gr Patr.08 m.E. was pretty high when fired through the MP40, around 410 m/s. The BC was similar to that of the std. 9mm NATO 115 gr FMJ round.
Non-existant, but the test was obviously carried out with another firearm, which isn't suprising as not many have an StG44 lying around. How the higher velocity affected the result we obviously don't know, it might have been positive or negative.
Again here's the .30 Carbine 110 gr FMJ fired against similar ballistics gel as the 7.92 Kurz you posted PJ:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2tkgIdX6ak
Note the narrow cavity and that the bullet first begins to tumble at the end.
Even the Russian 7.62x39 M43 is quite abit more violent on the gel than this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2tkgIdX6ak
Note the narrow cavity and that the bullet first begins to tumble at the end.
Even the Russian 7.62x39 M43 is quite abit more violent on the gel than this.
Yaw depth seems to vary quite a bit from round to round (as well as by distance I'm sure - as impact angle is highly important), as the illustrations of Dr. Gary Roberts suggest a very early yaw on the .30 Carbine.
I can believe that, and it's one of the reasons that it's very important that any comparison is done against the same type medium.
Based on the Brass Fetcher findings the 7.92 Kurz seems to yaw earlier than the .30 Carbine, and generate a substantially larger wound cavity.
Guys, argueing over balistics solves nothing, the BAR is clearly superior to the mkb in all ways including being sexier. Remeber, the BAR is love, the BAR is life.
