MKb 42(H) versus BAR

[JD0x0]

Watch these:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIVTDo2Xno0[/URL]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw3eKWvDGqQ[/URL]

First vid, not a lot of recoil and it didn't even have a compensator on it.
Second vid already watched. Low recoil.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

First vid, not a lot of recoil and it didn't even have a compensator on it.
Second vid already watched. Low recoil.

I suggest you listen to what the actual operators are saying...

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

The thing about the BAR is that you have to really push against the recoil when you fire it, whilst at the same time try and balance the great weight of the rifle. Combined this makes it a VERY tiring weapon to shoot in any unsupported position.

If you don't vigorously fight the recoil of the full power round, this is what results:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5_bExQ3T9A

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

The full sized rifle rounds (7.92x57) have a modifier so damage doesn't fall off until extreme ranges. The BC problem with the 7.92x57 only effects the drop and time of flight.

Which is a big enough problem in itself.

It's got the similar velocity to 7.62x25 tokarev(has at the muzzle) at 150m, with a bit more bullet weight.Not that impressive.

Okay now I know you're full it!

The wartime 7.92x33 Kurz load is a 8.1 gram projectile with a BC of .285 G1 fired at a MV of 685 m/s for a KE of ~1,900 Joules.

By comparison the wartime 7.62x25 load is a 5.5 gram projectile with a BC of just .158 G1, fired at a MV of 442 m/s for a KE of ~500 joules.

The fastest 7.62x25 load available was a 4.8 gram steel core bullet with a BC of just .123 G1 fired at a MV of 487 m/s for a KE of ~550 joules.

Not surprisingly the 7.92 Kurz is not only a lot more powerful, but the difference gets even bigger with range!

In short, these two rounds cannot even begin to be compared!

Energy doesn't always translate directly into tissue damage, even more so with FMJ rounds, since they typically don't dump all their energy in the target. And the amount of energy is hugely effected by when and IF the bullet starts yawing.

Except if the projectile hits bone, in which case the rifle round will cause catastrophic damage whilst the pistol round will not.

If I got shot (or someone with a similar stature to me) by 7.92x33 WWII load, front to back, or back to front, the bullet would only travel through about 6'' (15.24 cm) of tissue. Hardly enough for the bullets to yaw in most cases.

You certainly have a shallow chest, the average chest depth of a human male is usually 25 cm, and the 7.92x33 Kurz usually starts yawing at 12 cm, which means that if you're hit in the torso by one of these rounds then you better have a will ready! Esp. if you're not lucky enough that it doesn't hit a rib first, in which case its an almost guaranteed bye bye.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

7.92x33mm Kurz Patr.43 m.E. steel core FMJBT ballistics

Spoiler!

Sum up of MV & KE at distances:
0m = 685 m/s 1916 J
50m = 640 m/s 1660 J
100m = 594 m/s 1430 J
150m = 550 m/s 1227 J
200m = 509 m/s 1050 J
300m = 434 m/s 765 J
400m = 377 m/s 565 J

7.62x25mm Tokarev 5.5 gram lead core RN FMJ ballistics

Spoiler!

[/img]

Sum up of MV & KE at distances:
0m = 442 m/s 546 J
50m = 388 m/s 414 J
100m = 343 m/s 324 J
150m = 313 m/s 270 J
200m = 292 m/s 234 J
300m = 260 m/s 187 J
400m = 236 m/s 154 J

7.62x25mm Tokarev 4.8 gram steel core RN FMJ ballistics

Spoiler!

[/img]

Sum up of MV & KE at distances:
0m = 487 m/s 582 J
50m = 410 m/s 403 J
100m = 348 m/s 291 J
150m = 309 m/s 230 J
200m = 284 m/s 193 J
300m = 248 m/s 147 J
400m = 220 m/s 116 J

In short the 7.92 Kurz is as or more powerful at 400 meters than the 7.62 Tokarev is at point blank range.

 

[mrsirr]

Well broken bones in limbs don't really need to be taken into consideration, only the damage dealt if bone in the torso is hit. Say for example that ribs are considered ingame, if so then an AR or rifle round hitting a rib should result in instant death, simply due to the fact that such a scenario in reality would result in the target threat neutralized (dead or gravely wounded) 99.9% of the time.

Yeah I just mentioned limbs because it would be consistent. Although you do get those occasional things where a rifle round hits somebody in the elbow and shatter the joint, leaving them with this dangly bacon-looking thing for an arm. For the rest of your post, I think this is why it's good that the IOM makes all upper torso hits 1-hit kill. I mean, technically that doesn't always stop someone, but I mean, it's better than what ArmA does where every single person you meet is an action hero.

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

If I got shot (or someone with a similar stature to me) by 7.92x33 WWII load, front to back, or back to front, the bullet would only travel through about 6'' (15.24 cm) of tissue. Hardly enough for the bullets to yaw in most cases.

Uh......... What?


9mm hollow points will penetrate more tissue than that. If a 7.92x33mm is dumping all it's energy in 15cm, you're probably getting a hole big enough to fit your fist into. It dumps it's energy over a course of 50cm or more. I call bull****.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Uh......... What?


9mm hollow points will penetrate more tissue than that. If a 7.92x33mm is dumping all it's energy in 15cm, you're probably getting a hole big enough to fit your fist into. It dumps it's energy over a course of 50cm or more. I call bull****.

I think he's refering to the depth of his upper torso, however even here he is wrong as the average human male has a torso depth of 25-30 cm, and as I already explained to him the 7.92 Kurz start yawing already at 12 cm - providing it doesn't hit bone first, in which case it's going to fragment or yaw straight away.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

Yeah I just mentioned limbs because it would be consistent. Although you do get those occasional things where a rifle round hits somebody in the elbow and shatter the joint, leaving them with this dangly bacon-looking thing for an arm.

Correct, and that's really the distinguishing difference between being hit by a rifle or pistol round: the potential for such horrific injuries simply isn't present with pistol rounds.

For the rest of your post, I think this is why it's good that the IOM makes all upper torso hits 1-hit kill. I mean, technically that doesn't always stop someone, but I mean, it's better than what ArmA does where every single person you meet is an action hero.

But is this the case with pistol rounds ingame as-well? If so that might need some attention.

I really believe that incorperating hit zones for the ribs would be a good idea as long as the engine can handle it. It would make for some interesting situations, and definitely draw clear line between the effectiveness of pistol & rifle rounds.

PS: I hope you watched the video with Dr. Andreas Grabinsky that I linked, it really is worth the watch.

 

[mrsirr]

Correct, and that's really the distinguishing difference between being hit by a rifle or pistol round: the potential for such horrific injuries simply isn't present with pistol rounds.

Yeah I mean, it's not actually that rifle rounds aren't any more lethal than handgun rounds, it's just that sometimes it doesn't apply, like with thin people or at ranges that the round doesn't yaw-this is the main point that I've tried to make during this thread

But is this the case with pistol rounds ingame as-well? If so that might need some attention.

I really believe that incorperating hit zones for the ribs would be a good idea as long as the engine can handle it. It would make for some interesting situations, and definitely draw clear line between the effectiveness of pistol & rifle rounds.

I dunno, I mean, I feel like that's okay. It's true that it may not incapacitate someone instantly in reality, but I feel that getting lung shot with anything, even minus consideration for ribs, is traumatic enough that I could understand the majority of people stop fighting if they get hit there; also something to consider is that in this game-happening during WW2 of course- alot of the soldiers are conscripts, and even those that aren't are tired and miserable, so I can believe them just going "Screw it I'm not getting paid enough for this :I" and not really trying to fight through a collapsed lung.

PS: I hope you watched the video with Dr. Andreas Grabinsky that I linked, it really is worth the watch.

I tried, it was noisy in this room and I couldn't much focus on what he was saying; I'll have to try again later.
EDIT: got a chance to watch it. It's like he doesn't say alot that I don't know, but he clarifies things and it's like this big "Mmmhmmm. . ." moment.
Plus he's funny
"And here is a fortyfive caliber- No it's not. . .dammit."

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

On the subject of handguns: they should absolutely be able to one shot kill, which is why it's available in IOM if striking the upper torso.


Recorded in a wide variety of shootings and compiled into tables called "One Shot Stop Tables", 9mm and .45 ACP FMJ's have a ~65% success ratio to stop a man in a SINGLE shot to the torso. This is why our mod offers that. It's a very high chance (more than 1/2). It also allows the 7.92x33 and .30 Carbine to be capable of one-hit kills as well. Using a 'strictly' damage based system simply doesn't work, because that's not how real life works.

 

[mrsirr]

On the subject of handguns: they should absolutely be able to one shot kill, which is why it's available in IOM if striking the upper torso.


Recorded in a wide variety of shootings and compiled into tables called "One Shot Stop Tables", 9mm and .45 ACP FMJ's have a ~65% success ratio to stop a man in a SINGLE shot to the torso. This is why our mod offers that. It's a very high chance (more than 1/2). It also allows the 7.92x33 and .30 Carbine to be capable of one-hit kills as well. Using a 'strictly' damage based system simply doesn't work, because that's not how real life works.

In the mod is it just the chest or all of the non-bleed areas like the stomach?

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

Just the chest is the only extra OHK zone. Stomach remains damage-based.

 

[mrsirr]

Ok I'm cool with that.

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

On the subject of handguns: they should absolutely be able to one shot kill, which is why it's available in IOM if striking the upper torso.

Absolutely, but only if the bullet is in direct path of the heart or spine, something a rifle round isn't limited to thanks to its much greater damage potential.

Recorded in a wide variety of shootings and compiled into tables called "One Shot Stop Tables", 9mm and .45 ACP FMJ's have a ~65% success ratio to stop a man in a SINGLE shot to the torso. This is why our mod offers that. It's a very high chance (more than 1/2). It also allows the 7.92x33 and .30 Carbine to be capable of one-hit kills as well. Using a 'strictly' damage based system simply doesn't work, because that's not how real life works.

Are you sure about them being FMJ's PJ ? I seem to remember such a chart as well, but it was based on experiences by US police officers, most of whom use hollow point ammunition and most certainly wouldn't have been using FMJs.

 

[mrsirr]

greater damage potential.

You know. I like that wording. I think that's where people get confused with rifles and energy and whatnot. Energy means damage potential.
Maybe I'll just say that to people and they'll understand better.

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

Absolutely, but only if the bullet is in direct path of the heart or spine, something a rifle round isn't limited to thanks to its much greater damage potential.



Are you sure about them being FMJ's PJ ? I seem to remember such a chart as well, but it was based on experiences by US police officers, most of whom use hollow point ammunition and most certainly wouldn't have been using FMJs.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=18&Weight=All

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

65% for .45 / 9mm FMJs. This is not with only heart / spine shots, it is anywhere in the torso. Interesting to note that within the FMJ category, 9mm / .45 seem to have very similar 'success'.

p.s. Chuckhawks is missing 9mm FMJs, though Handloads has 2 types of 115gr FMJ (one for recorded with a barrel under 4".) You can find all sorts of links to the tables across the web, and the averages for 9mm 115gr FMJ and .45 ACP 230gr FMJ will be in a range of 60-70% (~65%.)

 

[Unus Offa Unus Nex]

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=18&Weight=All

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

65% for .45 / 9mm FMJs. This is not with only heart / spine shots, it is anywhere in the torso. Interesting to note that within the FMJ category, 9mm / .45 seem to have very similar 'success'.

p.s. Chuckhawks is missing 9mm FMJs, though Handloads has 2 types of 115gr FMJ (one for recorded with a barrel under 4".) You can find all sorts of links to the tables across the web, and the averages for 9mm 115gr FMJ and .45 ACP 230gr FMJ will be in a range of 60-70% (~65%.)

Thanks for the link PJ, esp. the first one as I don't consider Chuck Hawks a particularly reliable source.

Now about the lists, I'm not sure how reliable they are, they seem to be at odds with FBI's own statistics, also it doesn't look like they take into account
lethality - i.e. how likely is the person being hit of dying from his/her wounds.

The experience of trauma surgeons is clear however: Rifle & assault rifle rounds are capable of and usually do inflict a lot more damage to the human body than a pistol round. As evidence of this extensive studies show that whilst only a small percentage of people suffering handgun wounds end up dying, the fatality rate amongst people hit by rifle rounds is generally two to three times higher.

Even so according to the list on that site the .45 ACP achieves a one shot stop percentage of 57-62% with hits to the upper torso with 230 gr FMJ. Now to put things into perspective, on the same list the .30 Carbine achieves a one shot stop percentage of 79-81% with 110 gr FMJ, and that's despite the supposedly very narrow wound channel with that round.

This alone is proof positive of how much velocity matters in terms of damage potential, and I'm sure that the .30 Carbine's higher percentage is the direct result of the difference when bone was struck.

Now imagine what the statistic would look like for the 7.92 Kurz, I'd imagine a percentage along the lines of 95%, keeping in mind how early it starts yawing and esp. how devastating a hit to any bone in the upper torso would be.


PS: In the charts the 9mm Para is listed as achieving a one shot stop percentage of 58-70% compared to the .45 ACP's 57-62%, yet TWI has the .45 ACP do 65 dmg to the 9mm's 50 dmg ingame. Reverse psychology TWI?

 

[Panzer Jager '43]

Now imagine what the statistic would look like for the 7.92 Kurz, I'd imagine a percentage along the lines of 95%, keeping in mind how early it starts yawing and esp. how devastating a hit to any bone in the upper torso would be.


PS: In the charts the 9mm Para is listed as achieving a one shot stop percentage of 58-70% compared to the .45 ACP's 57-62%, yet TWI has the .45 ACP do 65 dmg to the 9mm's 50 dmg ingame. Reverse psychology TWI?

According to the list, most .308 soft points achieve ~95% I expect a 7.92 Kurz FMJ, with it's wound channel and yaw depth being similar to .30 Carbine FMJ, would be just above 80% (85% may be a good estimate.) .308 FMJ's are not listed, but such kinds of rounds would be 90% or more.

 

[JagdpantherX]

Excuse me for not being open minded, but I fail to accept those precentages. I question if a large enough test group was taken, and I also believe that the shootings themselves have loads of contrasting variables.

For example, I could shoot you in the heart with a .22lr and kill you while on the other hand graze you in the chest with a .40S&W.