MKb 42(H) versus BAR

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Unus Offa Unus Nex

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Just as an example, the difference between a German wartime 198 gr FMJBT round and a commercial 198 gr FMJBT made by PRVI. (Notice the difference in taper & location of the boat tail (and cannelure) as well as the longer length of the s.S. round)

rNax17c.jpg


As a result of the its different & sleeker dimensions the German s.S. round features a different CoG (providing greater wounding characteristics) and higher BC (.584-.593 vs .557-.565).
 
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Panzer Jager '43

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As I said the German 7.92x33 Kurz & Yugo 7.62x39 M67 behave very similarly, but not identically.

That's great, but these are just illustrations you're posting. I posted an actual image of a gel block shot by 7.92x33mm, and it didn't start yawing until after 15cm. Your illustrations suggest it starts yawing at 10cm or earlier. This might seem trivial, but it does make a difference in regards to how 'awesome' the 7.92x33mm apparently is. 9mm FMJ can yaw in tissue as well, and at around 15cm.

The wounding potential is not as great a difference from SMGs as some may believe for the Assault Rifle round.. it's real benefit is accuracy. One round to the torso from either has a pretty good chance of stopping a man, and though 7.92x33mm is certainly more powerful, I must ask you.. why do you think 85 damage is better than 70? It's a two-hit kill no matter what. And when you're shooting people in the toes and knees in RO2, it's always going to take more than two. Why is this such a big deal? Even if TWI buffed it's damage to 99.9 it would still be a two-hit kill.



In Immersion Overhaul Mutator, the SMG rounds do ~47-49 damage, while the 7.92x33mm does 78 (this compared to TWI's 50 & 70 respectively.) The 7.92x33 damage model was based off the profile of the gelatin block shot from Brass Fetcher which yaws quite late. It makes very little difference in game, HOWEVER in IOM we also have upper-torso hits causing one shot kills (instead of only heart shots.) This applies to the SMG and AR bullets, and the AR is vastly more accurate...
 
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Unus Offa Unus Nex

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That's great, but these are just illustrations you're posting. I posted an actual image of a gel block shot by 7.92x33mm, and it didn't start yawing until after 15cm. Your illustrations suggest it starts yawing at 10cm or earlier. This might seem trivial, but it does make a difference in regards to how 'awesome' the 7.92x33mm apparently is. 9mm FMJ can yaw in tissue as well, and at around 15cm.

They are illustrations based on test firings, they're not just some fancy childrens painting PJ. Furthermore the gel block image you have presented is for a commercial lead cored 7.92x33mm round, not a wartime steel cored 7.92x33mm S.m.E. round, making it irrelevant as the differences in bullet dimensions & CoG affect the terminal ballistics.

Also keep in mind that results vary depending on the type of gel blocks used, there are many combinations in gel percentages 10%, 20% or 30%, and different bullets do better or worse depending on what percentage is used - which also demonstrates how one bullet will be more distructive in fatty tissue whilst another will be more destructive in muscle tissue etc.

Thus the chart I posted seems the most relevant as all the rounds have been fired into the same type of ballistics gel.

The wounding potential is not as great a difference from SMGs as some may believe for the Assault Rifle round.. it's real benefit is accuracy. One round to the torso from either has a pretty good chance of stopping a man, and though 7.92x33mm is certainly more powerful, I must ask you.. why do you think 85 damage is better than 70? It's a two-hit kill no matter what. And when you're shooting people in the toes and knees in RO2, it's always going to take more than two. Why is this such a big deal? Even if TWI buffed it's damage to 99.9 it would still be a two-hit kill.

It matters due to the fact that different body parts feature different damage modifiers ingame, plus the fact that a player can be hit by different weapons at the same time. A player could take a pistol shot first and then an AR shot, or the reverse, and depending on where the hit is and how much damage each round does it might take two or three hits to put the player the down.


In Immersion Overhaul Mutator, the SMG rounds do ~47-49 damage, while the 7.92x33mm does 78 (this compared to TWI's 50 & 70 respectively.) The 7.92x33 damage model was based off the profile of the gelatin block shot from Brass Fetcher which yaws quite late. It makes very little difference in game, HOWEVER in IOM we also have upper-torso hits causing one shot kills (instead of only heart shots.) This applies to the SMG and AR bullets, and the AR is vastly more accurate...

That's great, however are there any servers actually up and running with this mutator, and are they populated?

Either way I think we should strive to make the base game as realistic as possible and not rely on mods/mutators for such things. The game is after all advertised as being devoted to realism, something that would be nice to see realized.
 
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JD0x0

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1. If it's based on velocity, that doesn't make any sense, since high velocity projectiles often fail to incapacitate as can be seen with 5.56 quite frequently.
It is based on velocity, but as I mentioned quite a few posts ago, that you need more frontal area to cause significant hydrostatic shock. A 5.56 has trouble incapacitating because they use FMJ's in the military. The earlier 5.56 bullets did not yaw as early, and because of that mostly penciled through. .224 has a small frontal area it's a skinny long bullet. When it yaws the frontal area is increased, because the 'side' of the bullet is now the 'front'
Expanding hunting ammo and an early yawing 5.56 will be much more reliable at incapacitating.
There are people who hunt deer with .223/5.56 and can put them down in 1 shot with good placement to the chest. The red jelly that used to be healthy tissue, that gets left behind in the wound cavity is pretty decent evidence of hydrostatic shock.

5.56 FMJ has velocity but frontal area is pretty minuscule when it's going straight. OTOH some .223 bullets are over an inch long. When it starts going sideways, that's a pretty dramatic increase in frontal area.

2. If it's based on energy transfer then it goes hand-in-hand with energy-transfer/radial temporary cavity-this would mean that the projectile still needs to yaw or upset in some way before it can cause serious wounds.
Exactly what I stated a few posts ago. Like I said before, FMJ's even at high velocity, don't do much damage if they don't yaw. They pretty much pencil through. And there's plenty of evidence in this thread that supports that. All the FMJ wound profiles look like pistol wounds until that bullet starts to yaw, where the cavity opens up. And that's demonstrated with EVERY FMJ bullet from every cartridge, in this thread.

There are instances where you could get a (non yawing) FMJ to have more devastating terminal effects, but it pretty much involves increasing the frontal area with a larger caliber bullet, and flatter, less streamlined front. A bullet with a flat front would be more likely to have serious tissue devastation without yawing or expansion, but performance through the air would suffer significantly, as it would reduce the bullet's BC, since you're intentionally giving it a less streamlined shape, in air, and fluid. Because of it's less streamlined shape, in fluid, it's going to need to rapidly push the fluid out of the way as it travels through it, which is going to have more violent effects. Still it's not going to be anywhere as devastating as something likely a .30 cal hunting bullet at 2800fps, which expands from .308 to about .60-70 caliber once it's in the target.

You need both rapid energy transfer and velocity. Rapid energy transfer pretty much requires a large frontal area. Military can't just move up to a big bore .50 cal for everything because there are many other considerations than damage, when choosing a cartridge for military applications. Recoil, resources/materials, weight, wind resistance. Bigger bore has more of all of those, which are negatives especially when bullet materials are expensive and hard to find during war time.
 
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Unus Offa Unus Nex

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But that's just temporary cavity. It doesn't really cause any damage in most circumstances. Although in this case the M80 fragmented so it would be more effective.

The shockwave that generates the temporary cavity is what is deadly, it will easily rupture vital organs. Had an egg been placed within the radius of the temporay cavity in that gel block, it would've been completely smashed by the shockwave. An FMJ pistol round in the regular calibers 9mm, .45 ACP etc., isn't capable of this.
 

mrsirr

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Over here, no not there, here.
Okay just wanted to clarify.
What we have now is a strange occurence I've never experienced before.
While we disagree on the significance of hydrostatic shock, you and I are pretty much on the same page. Weird.

Furthermore the gel block image you have presented is for a commercial lead cored 7.92x33mm round, not a wartime steel cored 7.92x33mm S.m.E. round, making it irrelevant as the differences in bullet dimensions & CoG affect the terminal ballistics.
As most rounds with a steel core have a steel core either located in the center or tip of the bullet, or even a steel rod core that runs the length of the projectile, the inclusion of a steel core tends not to bode well for the terminal effect of a round, making upset less likely.
 

mrsirr

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Over here, no not there, here.
The shockwave that generates the temporary cavity is what is deadly, it will easily rupture vital organs. Had an egg been placed within the radius of the temporay cavity in that gel block, it would've been completely smashed by the shockwave. An FMJ pistol round in the regular calibers 9mm, .45 ACP etc., isn't capable of this.
This has been tested by Brassfetcher. Rounds only do this when they upset, and then they need to be fairly powerful and upset; just moving quickly through tissue doesn't do this.
Again I dunno about that shockwave thing. Temporary cavity is just kinetic energy transferring to tissue that comes into contact with the projectile.
Of course keep in mind also that eggs are very fragile and human tissue isn't. Most tissues are very elastic and just return to their original position after some odd miliseconds.

Oh didn't see the post on the other page. Yeah FMJ rifle rounds tend to be more lethal than FMJ pistol rounds because nowadays most FMJ rifle rounds are tail-heavy spitzer rounds that tend to yaw in tissue. I only question the lethality of older more balanced rounds that didn't usually upset in tissue.
 
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Panzer Jager '43

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The shockwave that generates the temporary cavity is what is deadly, it will easily rupture vital organs. Had an egg been placed within the radius of the temporay cavity in that gel block, it would've been completely smashed by the shockwave. An FMJ pistol round in the regular calibers 9mm, .45 ACP etc., isn't capable of this.

Your organs aren't made out of eggs, they are much more elastic and flexible. Punch yourself in the gut; you'll see an egg would crack, but your intestines will survive. Temporary cavitation is the same thing as moving tissue around, and it does not cause damage to nearly any organs (only the liver will suffer damage from this unusual form of injury.) However, I do think it's highly likely you would 'feel' it - like you would feel it when you punch yourself - which makes the temporary cavity a good addition to incapacitation, but not so much lethality.


Lastly the image you posted of the 7.92x33 in gelatin may not be the wartime load. Certainly the 7.92x57mm in that image isn't. It simply does not say and I would not consider it to be 100% accurate for a variety of reasons. Perhaps we should actually get some gelatin blocks, an StG44, and the wartime load and record our own findings :p


From the other thread:

As a general rule any FMJ rifle round is more lethal than any FMJ pistol round, and that simply due to the much greater velocity of the rifle round. (i.e. don't go compare hollow point pistol rounds with FMJ rifle rounds)

The 7.92 S.m.E. round, whilst featuring a steel core (which isn't what affects yawing, that's the CoG), is shorter just like the newer AK round, featuring a very similarly located CoG.



If you are comparing 7.92x33 Kurz again with a 7.62x39 M67, I have some extra information for you. M67 has an airpocket in the tip; this airpocket destabilizes the round as it passes through tissue and causes a very early yawing; this same feature is applied to 5.45x39mm and 9x39mm rounds, for vastly greater wounding capability.

7.92x33mm does not have such an airpocket. (Infact the only WW2 round I can think of which does something similar is the .303 British.) The 7.92x33 Kurz will perform much closer to the old M43 round because it lacks this innovative feature of more modern Assault Rifle ammunition.
 
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Unus Offa Unus Nex

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Your organs aren't made out of eggs, they are much more elastic and flexible. Punch yourself in the gut; you'll see an egg would crack, but your intestines will survive. Temporary cavitation is the same thing as moving tissue around, and it does not cause damage to nearly any organs (only the liver will suffer damage from this unusual form of injury.) However, I do think it's highly likely you would 'feel' it - like you would feel it when you punch yourself - which makes the temporary cavity a good addition to incapacitation, but not so much lethality.

A punch in the gut does not send a shockwave moving at several thousand ft pr second through your body PJ, there's a rather big difference ;)

It's this shockwave which can cause nearby organs to rupture, whilst causing ripping/stretching damage to surrounding tissues.

If you are comparing 7.92x33 Kurz again with a 7.62x39 M67, I have some extra information for you. M67 has an airpocket in the tip; this airpocket destabilizes the round as it passes through tissue and causes a very early yawing; this same feature is applied to 5.45x39mm and 9x39mm rounds, for vastly greater wounding capability.

7.92x33mm does not have such an airpocket. (Infact the only WW2 round I can think of which does something similar is the .303 British.) The 7.92x33 Kurz will perform much closer to the old M43 round because it lacks this innovative feature of more modern Assault Rifle ammunition.

??

The M67 does not feature any airpocket PJ, it's a lead cored flat based FMJ spitzer, and the flat base allows it to be shorter & heavier than the M43, like the 7.92mm S.m.E. round but without the boattail.

7.62x39mm M67 Yugo
Zrno%207%2C62x39%20Ball%20M67.jpg
 
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Panzer Jager '43

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The M67 does not feature any airpocket PJ, it's a lead cored flat based FMJ spitzer, and the flat base allows it to be shorter & heavier than the M43, like the 7.92mm S.m.E. round but without the boattail.

I suppose you are right about the airpocket, but the 7.92 S.m.E's center of mass is much more similar to M43 than M67. I do not see why it should deal 85 or even more damage, especially when full sized Rifles are as low as 115.

Kill your target in two shots, or kill your target in two shots.... I honestly don't expect Tripwire to change anything about their damage model. They've used the same values since RO1 (with the exception of the P38) and I suspect they're happy with it. All this bickering about an extra 15 damage... which you wouldn't even notice. If they ninja-patched it in, you wouldn't be able to tell.
 
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mrsirr

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Over here, no not there, here.
A punch in the gut does not send a shockwave moving at several thousand ft pr second through your body
I think this is where the confusion lies. People who sell ammunition are always talking about these intense shockwaves, but when people take measurements and do tests, they find that these shockwaves travel at or below the speed of sound. But it doesn't even matter all that much, a shockwave is just energy being transported by a medium in a rolling manner similar to how peristalsis works. The medium is actually moved only a very short distance and only a small amount of energy is transfered to the medium at any given time. In the tests I mention earlier, a medium which was penetrated by a point-forward bullet, received only fractions of a single ft-lb of kinetic energy. Energy received by the medium only exceeded one ft-lb when using expanding ammunition and only exceeded several ft-lbs when using fairly powerful expanding ammunition.
 

Unus Offa Unus Nex

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I suppose you are right about the airpocket, but the 7.92 S.m.E's center of mass is much more similar to M43 than M67.

Actually no, due to being shorter and wider the Patr.43 m.E.'s CoG is more like that of the M67 ball, hence the very similar terminal ballistics of the M67 & Patr.43.

I do not see why it should deal 85 or even more damage, especially when full sized Rifles are as low as 115.

IMHO it should deal ~85 damage due to the fact that in reality it deals damage a lot closer to that of a full power rifle FMJ round than that of a pistol FMJ round which is not even close.

As for 115 being low, I disagree, it's quite a lot ingame, it usually means a one shot stop.

Ofcourse another way to realistically increase the damage of the AR round over the pistol rounds, without increasing the baseline dmg figure of 70, could be to simply greatly increase the likelyhood of slow death being dealt when hit with this round outside the most vital areas. This would simulate the greater damage an assault rifle round does (in comparison to pistol rounds) to surrounding tissue and nearby organs not directly in the path of the bullet.

Kill your target in two shots, or kill your target in two shots.... I honestly don't expect Tripwire to change anything about their damage model. They've used the same values since RO1 (with the exception of the P38) and I suspect they're happy with it. All this bickering about an extra 15 damage... which you wouldn't even notice. If they ninja-patched it in, you wouldn't be able to tell.

You'd probably not be able to tell right away, but the change will take effect and result in a higher likelyhood of one shot dispatches, be they instant or slow death.
 
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Panzer Jager '43

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Actually no, due to being shorter and wider the Patr.43 m.E.'s CoG is more like that of the M67 ball, hence the very similar terminal ballistics of the M67 & Patr.43.

It is a shorter round, but 7.92x33 is boattail unlike M67 (this was one of the reasons why M67 was yawing early?) Additionally being a shorter round than both of those means yawing will be much less significant, assuming it does yaw early.
 

JD0x0

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I still can't imagine this when 5.56 and 7.62x51 are failing to stop combatants on a daily basis it seems.
FMJ's good sir.

Also, you can 'kill' someone and not stop them. I believe I stated this earlier, or maybe it was another thread, but you can shoot someone in the heart, and they can go on fighting for several seconds especially with adrenaline in the bloodstream.

Even hunting with more than enough power, you can 'kill' an animal and it can still run for over 100 yards in some cases. I recount a story of a hunter who hit a deer right in the heart, literally shredded it into 3 pieces, lungs also collapsed and were largely shredded and destroyed. The deer jump when it got hit, and ran over 75 yards, despite having it's major organs essentially obliterated.
The only way to instantly stop something be it a deer or an enemy combatant, is to hit their 'off switch'
That usually means hitting the CNS and doing significant damage. That same deer, if shot in the neck, would've dropped right there.
 

mrsirr

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Over here, no not there, here.
FMJ's good sir.

Also, you can 'kill' someone and not stop them. I believe I stated this earlier, or maybe it was another thread, but you can shoot someone in the heart, and they can go on fighting for several seconds especially with adrenaline in the bloodstream.

Even hunting with more than enough power, you can 'kill' an animal and it can still run for over 100 yards in some cases. I recount a story of a hunter who hit a deer right in the heart, literally shredded it into 3 pieces, lungs also collapsed and were largely shredded and destroyed. The deer jump when it got hit, and ran over 75 yards, despite having it's major organs essentially obliterated.
The only way to instantly stop something be it a deer or an enemy combatant, is to hit their 'off switch'
That usually means hitting the CNS and doing significant damage. That same deer, if shot in the neck, would've dropped right there.
Oh yeah I mean, I get that. It's just that people act like the sheer fact that a projectile is traveling quickly makes it somehow hurt things it's not touching. The damage done by high velocity projectiles is done by kinetic energy transfer as it is well documented that high velocity rifle rounds can leave humans basicly un-phased if they don't upset or fragment as you stated earlier. Again I want to clarify that you and I are in agreement, we just disagree in terminology.
 

mrsirr

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Over here, no not there, here.
This whole conversation has gone on too long and I feel weird getting this involved as a moderator- so I'll try to back out a bit here.
I guess I'll just say this, it really bothers me that I spent several years researching the properties of gunshot wounds, as well as the laws of physics themselves to make absolutely sure that I could speak on this issue without blowing around hot air, only to be told that I'm wrong because people choose to believe stereotypes established by entertainment outlets. They choose to believe what seems right because the idea that the world doesn't work as previously thought just isn't palatable.


I want to clarify that this isn't directed at anyone in this thread, but phrases like hydrostatic shock, ramblings of pressure waves and shockwaves- these were first uttered by someone who-pardon my language- was talking out of their ***. These things are cosmicly hilarious and nonesensical to a physics major.
I wish I could just let you know what is in my mind
because I can't begin to articulate into words how little sense some of this stuff makes, alot of people have been had by a few know-it-alls who think people will just assume they know what they're talking about because they use lots of five-dollar words. This seriously lays heavy on me, because it makes me wonder what other things we could have totally wrong because it just seems right. For all I know I could be horribly wrong about all kinds of things because I didn't delve into research about them.
 

HellsJanitor

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The BAR is the most overpowered weapon in Ro2/RS, and that's saying a lot when you have flamethrowers.
Range is ridiculous, Recoil is ridiculous, run-speed is ridiculous, and of course the 1-hit KO are all perks the BAR gets as a 20lb obsolete weapon in this game. Then it gets upgrades and even more ridiculousness.

The MKB I never cared for. I never used them until after they got nerfed, but they do very well in close-quarters. At range you'd have better luck with an MP40.
 

mrsirr

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Over here, no not there, here.
Really? I was under the impression that the MkB had too much range. I've never gotten to use one because computer troubles have left me with precious little actuall play time on RO.