Microtransactions the taboo.
- Thread starter Munchiesaurus Rex
- Start date
Again, compiling a list of little things to blow the matter out of proportion. The game is in EA and currently riddled with all sorts of balance issues across all perks, as well as some horrible bugs to boot. It's to be expected. I agree the zwei needs to be toned down, particularly the poke's unusual efficacy in dealing with big zeds, as well as the weapon's power in general.
But then there's the attitude you take towards the zwei, or should I say the conclusion you've made, calling it pay 2 win. Pay 2 win would mean that it was INTENTIONALLY made better than the pulverizer to sell more copies of Chivalry, rather than what most game developers do: "here's a weapon design, it looks fun and cool, let's make it and put it in the game, oh here let's assign these stats to it". That's a better explanation as to why its cost is lower than the pulverizer: they didn't think it was better, but once again they underestimated the power of the autismo-maximos of this community, able to make just about any weapon seem broken. Unlike them, the TWI staff doesn't go onto a practice map and endlessly yank the guts out of every little aspect of the weapon. That's how these little imbalances occur.
I've watched TWI's weapon track record for a long time in KF, and obviously KF2, and they've done what I consider to be a more nobler job than most companies when it comes to power creep and dlc weapons (barring flare revolvers, may those things remain in hell forever).
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In Killing Floor, the SP Musket, Buzzsaw bow, Scythe, ZED MKv2, Harpoon launcher and the Flare Revolvers greet you kindly for buying these P2W weapon DLCs. I follow the pretty accurate logic below:
Spoiler!
In short: Advantage, more tactics, more possibilities OVER normal players.
This continues with the Zweihander in KF2, altough only one player has to own the "DLC" to make it available for everyone.
There. I have a solid reason. I loved the games in pre 2005 times, where gaming was meant to be fun, not for monetary drain.
Feel free to spam a shtstorm of "This is how we supported Tripwire in return to further support their games with free updates" (via "paid updates") because in my eyes, they are not doing it quite correctly.
Okay, that's a solid reason then. I'm pretty disappointed with the zweihander too. I faintly remember there being a mention, at least an implicit one, about no more paid weapons that give advantage. Zweihander clearly breaks the rule, and it happened as soon as within the first couple of updates of EA. No matter how much time it took, that dev time should have been spent making weapons that are actually missing from the game, not paid exclusive upgrade weapons. Worst way to go short of map/gamemode DLCs...
My guess is the zweihander is gonna be left alone or nerfed to uselessness. Neither of those are pleasant options for anybody.
Okay okay, it's not that horrible yet, but I don't blame you for losing respect for the policy. It's a crappy one.
Uhhh, my opinion... plz dont kill me.
At first, i was horrified that We were gonna go CS. The renders posted by IJC show a Case... so we will probably get case droppings. After a while, i have learned to simply accept this fate and now i'm almost cool about (personally i perfer if TW handles most skins and cosmetics instead of the community
)
Cases should be given either by a drop (via winning or after specific amount of time/objectives you did during a match, that way you aren't always a loser if you didnt come out victories and not a idler.) or simply purchasing one with in-game credit (or liek a dollar). What this credit will be is still a mystery. I would not like it to be the actual dosh you have left over from your game as this will promote selfishness.
Cases should not be opened with any sort of key. A notification should just appear and say if the user is sure to open it. To even it out for TW, they could sell cases that contain the rare items. These cases can be purchased with real money (3-4 bucks?). Cosmetics item's variant colors should be separated as to fill up a case if there isnt a variety of unique items. BUT i wont be a fan for weapon qualities. I think that is where people will complain.
TW should also do what they are known for doing, allowing free/locked content, via achievements or cross content. This way it shows that TW isn't all that money hungry (sorta) and people can get skins and cosmetics for free and not look boring. They can also do giveaway and codes (not like the PCG set), so this way TW can get some marketing in their game and the user can get free stuff for it. What to do if you already have a item a case has given you? sell it for in game credit (should give you 40 or below percent of the standard case cost). If not that, you can also just exchange, like offer 2-4 items and a bit of credits to get a higher tier item.
Lastly, I would prefer if this game stays off the Steam Market. We all know how KF2 will end up if it goes there.
There you have it, i have given a example on how people can get free stuff/not spend a ton, and how TW can still earn extra non-dlc cash from this. Im no expert on this
Im open to suggestions & hate.
At first, i was horrified that We were gonna go CS. The renders posted by IJC show a Case... so we will probably get case droppings. After a while, i have learned to simply accept this fate and now i'm almost cool about (personally i perfer if TW handles most skins and cosmetics instead of the community
)Cases should be given either by a drop (via winning or after specific amount of time/objectives you did during a match, that way you aren't always a loser if you didnt come out victories and not a idler.) or simply purchasing one with in-game credit (or liek a dollar). What this credit will be is still a mystery. I would not like it to be the actual dosh you have left over from your game as this will promote selfishness.
Cases should not be opened with any sort of key. A notification should just appear and say if the user is sure to open it. To even it out for TW, they could sell cases that contain the rare items. These cases can be purchased with real money (3-4 bucks?). Cosmetics item's variant colors should be separated as to fill up a case if there isnt a variety of unique items. BUT i wont be a fan for weapon qualities. I think that is where people will complain.
TW should also do what they are known for doing, allowing free/locked content, via achievements or cross content. This way it shows that TW isn't all that money hungry (sorta) and people can get skins and cosmetics for free and not look boring. They can also do giveaway and codes (not like the PCG set), so this way TW can get some marketing in their game and the user can get free stuff for it. What to do if you already have a item a case has given you? sell it for in game credit (should give you 40 or below percent of the standard case cost). If not that, you can also just exchange, like offer 2-4 items and a bit of credits to get a higher tier item.
Lastly, I would prefer if this game stays off the Steam Market. We all know how KF2 will end up if it goes there.
There you have it, i have given a example on how people can get free stuff/not spend a ton, and how TW can still earn extra non-dlc cash from this. Im no expert on this
Im open to suggestions & hate.
1. It depends what the item is you're buying, and how the transactions are implemented. I'll ask a couple of questions to myself regarding any microtransaction:
- Does the item I'm being offered confer some kind of advantage, or is it merely a re-skin? If re-skin, do not purchase
- Does the item I'm being offered have any repeat value, or is it single-use-only? If single use, be reluctant to purchase
Re-skins and gold camo weapons? They're just wanky add-ons that I consistently fail to understand why people shell out cash for.
tl;dr, I'm all for microtransactions if the purchase conveys some kind of functional or statistical benefit for the player, that doesn't have an expiration date.
3. I already did.
Edit - for the people complaining about having to shell out money for the zweihander, I think I've been in about 2 games out of the last hundred where SOMEone hasn't had the Chivalry game, but usually it's at least three players on-team that have this game, therefore making the melee weapon available to all.
I'm confused as to the complaints if only a small fraction of the time you're unable to use this weapon.
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Yeah, 1 time use items (ex: Explosive Rounds) are bad Microtransactions. But from TWI's practices I cannot see it getting so out of hand. I found the character & weapon packs a great bargain (financially) to add to the first game's replayability. We got a free weapon update that added a lot of guns too. Anyway TWI's mixed practices were always really well handled in my opinion. The added pay-to-unlock weapons didn't give an unfair advantage & could still be used by anyone in the game.
I really hope TWI will sell a max-perk unlock. I would never buy such a thing but it might keep all these Perk-Boost'n Pros (ie: low-level charactets in high-difficulty games) & Perk-Boosting maps (the Long Approach, Cross-roads/ Circle Arena, Fish-in-a-barrel, & Bottle-neck style maps) down to a Minimum. I know, I know- "lvl 25 Noob Plague in HoE" will be the complaint then but whatever... the good outweighs the bad; at the very least they'd have the stats to stand-a-chance & do some damage & not just kite-it-out for 15mins searching for ammo & wasting everyone's time.
I really hope TWI will sell a max-perk unlock. I would never buy such a thing but it might keep all these Perk-Boost'n Pros (ie: low-level charactets in high-difficulty games) & Perk-Boosting maps (the Long Approach, Cross-roads/ Circle Arena, Fish-in-a-barrel, & Bottle-neck style maps) down to a Minimum. I know, I know- "lvl 25 Noob Plague in HoE" will be the complaint then but whatever... the good outweighs the bad; at the very least they'd have the stats to stand-a-chance & do some damage & not just kite-it-out for 15mins searching for ammo & wasting everyone's time.
1. I'm mostly fine with the microtransactions in the games. However the kind of game dictates what is fine and what is not.
2. I'm okay with microtransactions in KF2.
3. I see no harm in microtransactions when they allow you to look fancy but give no other benefits.
To compare with the 1st game.
Golden skins (or any skins) should be implemented as microtransactions.
Any weapon packs (different stats/effects etc) should be as a DLC packs.
I'm down to pay $5-$10 for a weapon pack which allows me to have another way to kill zeds or (do stuff in the game)
2. I'm okay with microtransactions in KF2.
3. I see no harm in microtransactions when they allow you to look fancy but give no other benefits.
To compare with the 1st game.
Golden skins (or any skins) should be implemented as microtransactions.
Any weapon packs (different stats/effects etc) should be as a DLC packs.
I'm down to pay $5-$10 for a weapon pack which allows me to have another way to kill zeds or (do stuff in the game)
Dude pls, not weapons or maps as DLC. They should be free, since they add versatiles and tactics in to the game. They can make enough money with cosmetics like skins for weapons and stuff like hats or glasses.
I dont want to see weapons or character as DLC. Its like paying money for each update, since that will happen when they start. They will fix few bugs here and there and add 2 new DLCs and call that a free update.
TL;DR
No weapons or characters as DLC!
Probably should have noted that I am one of those said maximos. I guess a more PC term would be Pioneers of the Meta.
SP Musket wasn't radically better than the Crossbow or EBR at "killing the bigs" job, though it was better than its direct alternate, the LAR. It did help the sharp kite better because let's be honest, everybody hated that damn ebr, and I hope that thing never comes back.
Buzzsaw bow gave one particular, minor advantage: made the zerk not-useless vs Patriarch. And that was if the zerk actively chose to not animation-lock the patriarch, in which case he's actually being a detriment to the team. When it came to kiting, nothing could truly top the Holy Trinity in terms of reliability and cost effectiveness.
Scythe was broken for a short while with its ability to body stun scrakes, but that was quickly removed. Actually scratch that, it was nerfed to the point that the claymore outclassed it in every category except cleave (but just barely).
ZED MKv2- Hated this thing, way too good. Zed Mark 1 was fine, Mark 2 completely outclassed it.
Harpoon launcher- Too buggy to be reliable. Sticking with the M32.
Flare revolver- I can write a book on these awful things, even worse I could summarize how they could have been brought into balance with a simple change, but it's too late for that. One of the devs actively acknowledged the edge flares gave, so I believe TWI is aware of how good these were.
So out of a good chunk of weapons you have two that are objectively broken, while the rest are more or less alternate loadouts. I've played pay2win games, and I'm not seeing it in KF2 (not yet anyway). Not even in 1. Players could and did succeed just as well without the community packs.
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This diagram and your understanding of pay to win isn't exactly correct.I follow the pretty accurate logic below:
Spoiler!
In short: Advantage, more tactics, more possibilities OVER normal players.
Pay to win takes place when you can acquire power via real money that is otherwise inaccessible to non-paying players. By power I mean items or weapons that are objectively better than existing "free" items, so having them renders vanilla items pointless / useless. For example guns that deal more damage while not having balancing downsides. You can also call it power creep - when newly added items surpass the vanilla ones and you have to get them to stay competitive (hello Payday 2).
This is (more or less) the definition of pay to win. Now there's something that this diagram of yours haven't heard of and it's called pay to skip.
Pay to skip is when you pay money to get content faster. The exp boosters mentioned in the diagram? Those are not pay to win, those are meant for people who work full time and don't have time to grind 10 perks to level 25 over who knows how many hours of play (that's an example). If you sink more hours instead of money you can get the same result for free - that's pay to skip and NOT pay to win.
Now let's look at the Zweihander. It's not exactly on either side of pay to win or not. The thing is, however, that its existence doesn't make you, as a player, fall behind others. If anyone on the server has it - you can have it too. If no one has it - well, then no one has it. And you don't have to ask people to buy you DLC weapons like in KF1 any more. You can just buy them at trader yourself. This is a huge improvement...
Side note:
...and most likely has potential to keep the games fresh.
Let's say you are used to one particular loadout for your X perk. Suddenly no one on the server has the DLC you rely on. Well gotta find another solution then and fast. Different setup, somewhat different gameplay. Fresh experience perhaps?
Or, people will get frustrated that they can't play with exactly the same weapons for the 200th time in a row. As they say, you can't satisfy everyone. :3
1: I used to hate the idea, and couldnt fathom the idea of buying anything like that. Id buy expansion packs, nothing smaller
Ive since come around. I still dont buy map packs, because playing in a fragmented community is lame (you are better off with the base maps.) I have bought gun skins in CSGO because I play it all the time and I love stattrack, and character skins in KF1 to support TWI.
2/3: Sure, character skins (and "hats") and gun skins are fine.
Maps, new guns, and any other similar content needs to be free to prevent community fragmentation or Pay-to-Win situations.
When it comes to any form of DLC in games, if it doesn't effect gameplay in anyway, I am perfectly happy if I can spend the money and get exactly what I want.
I like buying purely cosmetic items like weapon and character skins which are available for purchase via an ingame store. I just browse though what is available and if I like it, I buy it. Chivalry has done a great job handling DLC imo.
If DLC Items end up like CS:GO and only being obtained via chance or some "market" where other people dictate the price of the item, I will never play said game again. It always leaves me with a bad feeling when you see an item you like and you either have to pay for keys and risk the lottery over and over again to get it, or buy it from a player for a completely unreasonable price.
As for the Zweihander debate, I was very sceptical of it, because it is essentially DLC that does effect gameplay, but TW handled it really well by letting everyone use it if 1 person in the server owns it. This essentially lets me try it out and if I like it, I may buy it or just wait until it is on sale.
Besides, every time I play KF2, about 50% of the players in the server seem to have the zwei.
I hope that they continue with this strategy with future side-grades/cross promotional items.
I like buying purely cosmetic items like weapon and character skins which are available for purchase via an ingame store. I just browse though what is available and if I like it, I buy it. Chivalry has done a great job handling DLC imo.
If DLC Items end up like CS:GO and only being obtained via chance or some "market" where other people dictate the price of the item, I will never play said game again. It always leaves me with a bad feeling when you see an item you like and you either have to pay for keys and risk the lottery over and over again to get it, or buy it from a player for a completely unreasonable price.
As for the Zweihander debate, I was very sceptical of it, because it is essentially DLC that does effect gameplay, but TW handled it really well by letting everyone use it if 1 person in the server owns it. This essentially lets me try it out and if I like it, I may buy it or just wait until it is on sale.
Besides, every time I play KF2, about 50% of the players in the server seem to have the zwei.
I hope that they continue with this strategy with future side-grades/cross promotional items.
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(I'm basing my answers here off of Yoshiro's two posts here and here regarding the idea of microtransations.)
Regarding microtransactions vs. DLC for payment method, I would go with whichever gives TWI more revenue (i.e. "I paid X dollars for this skin pack, TWI gets either Y or Z dollars of that money").
On a similar note, I wonder what TWI will do with crossover content in the future. I would be fine if this content were at some point sold as separate DLC, though that might be more controversy than it's worth. (Of course, the crossover sponsor would get the DLC money for this.)
- I could only see microtransactions (and DLCs for that matter) making sense as something exclusive to cosmetic changes. Anything modifying core gameplay (even "sidegrade" weapons) is opening a huge can of worms.
- I would say yes if point #1 is kept in mind.
- I see it as the difference between "need" and "want", relatively speaking. My diamond-encrusted Eviscerator is functionally the same as the original. Something like the Zweihander concerns me, regardless of balance issues, because at the very least it opens up more core gameplay options. At least TWI mitigates this somewhat with content sharing.
Regarding microtransactions vs. DLC for payment method, I would go with whichever gives TWI more revenue (i.e. "I paid X dollars for this skin pack, TWI gets either Y or Z dollars of that money").
On a similar note, I wonder what TWI will do with crossover content in the future. I would be fine if this content were at some point sold as separate DLC, though that might be more controversy than it's worth.
(Of course, the crossover sponsor would get the DLC money for this.)The way I see it, if TWI finds microtransactions more financially viable for them, then great.
The real issue at play from a consumer standpoint isn't how it's sold - it's whether you're offering something that people really want to shell out the cash for.
Opinions will clearly be divided as to what should be sold and what should be free, but in the end that isn't up to us. It is up to the consumer, however, what they choose to buy.
Hey hey, my thread is up here with a lot of responce. TBH I didn't expect all that attention. You guys are awesome. I read all your responses and to conclude what I think the community stand is - don't like the microtransactions, but are indifferent about them if they are cosmetic only and some of the people are even looking forward to it.
So to summarise:
The good thing - modders get a cut for their creations, Steam and TWI get a cut - everyone is happy.
The bad thing - RNG - There is too much RNG involved in what we have right now. You might get something you don't want and of bad quality (worst case scenario). Or spending for example 2 euro to get item that costs 0.0001.
My thoughts on the matter are that it would be good if people can chose their RNG, this way it won't be that bad. For example lets say the game drops crates. Have crates that give one random skin of somewat rare item in mint condition. Then have crates that drop a set of skins for all the weapons for certain perk - that are of random quality and random rarity. This way I can decide - hm I want to have one item that might be really good or somewhat good or I want few items for Berzerker for example that can range from worn to legendary - I don't know. Give people a choice and put RNG after that. Again this is only my oppinion of how things should be.
And for the love of god, please if there are community wepons DLC or any weapon DLC or character DLC don't put skins for them in the normal drops. Is it hard to make crates or whatever that drop only for the DLC owners? I don't wan't to get a skin for a weapon for a DLC that I don't own or a hat for a character that I must buy aswell. Things like that make people angry and as I see here in this forum everyone is ready to tallk and give oppinions and are not all "dlcs are bad, mkay".
I can see that people here are open minded and understand that the market right now is not what it used to be in the 90s and early 00s and to ensure the games long life something like this must be implemented.
Also I know that something like that is not done overnight and it has allready been thought of. The purpose of this thread is to state our oppinions so it's easy for TWI to see what the community thinks, it's not a Yes or No thread, because we don't have the final word, we are not the developers - TWI are we can only say what we think and they would probably see it and probably get a good idea or a glimpse of the community thoughts about that matter.
I like the direction where this is going. Keep up the good work everyone, keep giving oppinions and ideas.
P.S.
as for the twohander - Yes it is the best weapon for the berzerker RIGHT NOW, the only reason being the range and the fact that the Pulveriser does that short reloading animation after each RMB hit rendering parry useless with it. However it's too early to say it's pay to win since we still don't have all the weapons for that perk. In KF1 we had Claymore sword that was awesome and all the community weapons were kind of meh when it comes to being usefull, they could substitute some of the base weapons but never be better than them with the exception of the flare guns - but I am sure TWI allready had received enough hate for them when they were released and learned their mistake.
So as a conclusion I would like to say that you are all awesome, keep doing what you do and keep them oppinions coming you never know, you could inspire something great for our favorite game. Don't forget to try and not be hostile, we all wan't whats best for KF2 and if steam marketable items are what it needs to ensure the long life of the game, lets help do them in the best possible way.
Cheers.
So to summarise:
The good thing - modders get a cut for their creations, Steam and TWI get a cut - everyone is happy.
The bad thing - RNG - There is too much RNG involved in what we have right now. You might get something you don't want and of bad quality (worst case scenario). Or spending for example 2 euro to get item that costs 0.0001.
My thoughts on the matter are that it would be good if people can chose their RNG, this way it won't be that bad. For example lets say the game drops crates. Have crates that give one random skin of somewat rare item in mint condition. Then have crates that drop a set of skins for all the weapons for certain perk - that are of random quality and random rarity. This way I can decide - hm I want to have one item that might be really good or somewhat good or I want few items for Berzerker for example that can range from worn to legendary - I don't know. Give people a choice and put RNG after that. Again this is only my oppinion of how things should be.
And for the love of god, please if there are community wepons DLC or any weapon DLC or character DLC don't put skins for them in the normal drops. Is it hard to make crates or whatever that drop only for the DLC owners? I don't wan't to get a skin for a weapon for a DLC that I don't own or a hat for a character that I must buy aswell. Things like that make people angry and as I see here in this forum everyone is ready to tallk and give oppinions and are not all "dlcs are bad, mkay".
I can see that people here are open minded and understand that the market right now is not what it used to be in the 90s and early 00s and to ensure the games long life something like this must be implemented.
Also I know that something like that is not done overnight and it has allready been thought of. The purpose of this thread is to state our oppinions so it's easy for TWI to see what the community thinks, it's not a Yes or No thread, because we don't have the final word, we are not the developers - TWI are we can only say what we think and they would probably see it and probably get a good idea or a glimpse of the community thoughts about that matter.
I like the direction where this is going. Keep up the good work everyone, keep giving oppinions and ideas.
P.S.
as for the twohander - Yes it is the best weapon for the berzerker RIGHT NOW, the only reason being the range and the fact that the Pulveriser does that short reloading animation after each RMB hit rendering parry useless with it. However it's too early to say it's pay to win since we still don't have all the weapons for that perk. In KF1 we had Claymore sword that was awesome and all the community weapons were kind of meh when it comes to being usefull, they could substitute some of the base weapons but never be better than them with the exception of the flare guns - but I am sure TWI allready had received enough hate for them when they were released and learned their mistake.
So as a conclusion I would like to say that you are all awesome, keep doing what you do and keep them oppinions coming you never know, you could inspire something great for our favorite game. Don't forget to try and not be hostile, we all wan't whats best for KF2 and if steam marketable items are what it needs to ensure the long life of the game, lets help do them in the best possible way.
Cheers.
I'd still say that you can't call something that doesn't give you power that non-paying players can't access a "pay to win".
If anything, the way TWI does it now is "forcing" non-paying people to play online with other (paying) people. I guess it's not the worst thing to happen in a primarily multiplayer game, hmm?
1. I don't like micro transactions in games that I paid money for.
2. Depends. My buying content in KF1 was simply to support TWI. They did good work and deserved extra money for the extra content throughout the years. When I see crap like pay walling characters and weapons to games I have no interest in this early in development, my wallet shuts on reflex.
3. Me spending money beyond the initial purchase entirely how I feel about the game and developer practices. If I feel like I am being labeled a "whale" I stop spending. If the people making the game has bad consumer practices I wont "buy" their game. Too many people, places and things pulling at my wallet for me to waste on shoddy business practices.
2. Depends. My buying content in KF1 was simply to support TWI. They did good work and deserved extra money for the extra content throughout the years. When I see crap like pay walling characters and weapons to games I have no interest in this early in development, my wallet shuts on reflex.
3. Me spending money beyond the initial purchase entirely how I feel about the game and developer practices. If I feel like I am being labeled a "whale" I stop spending. If the people making the game has bad consumer practices I wont "buy" their game. Too many people, places and things pulling at my wallet for me to waste on shoddy business practices.